Organic Produce Nutritionally Better?

Cthulhu,

I agree fully that it’s not natural to pop pills for the rest of your life, and that it’s always preferable to get off the drugs if you can eliminate the need for them.

But, again, you’re not seeing the logical fallacy here. Just because the medical establishment relies too much on prescription drugs does not mean that anything Trudeau says about “natural cures” or government conspiracies is true.

And, in many cases, the distinction between “natural” remedies and drugs is quite arbitrary. There’s really no reason why taking an herb should automatically be seen as healthier than taking a drug, especially when so many drugs are derived from naturally occurring compounds anyway. I will also remind you that NATURAL is not equivalent to HEALTHY. Some of the most toxic substances known to man are natural.

Medical science has not “failed” just because cancer rates are increasing. That’s nonsense. It just goes to show that whether people get cancer is beyond the control of the medical establishment. Medical science can’t keep people from eating McDonald’s food and living an unhealthy lifestyle.

Trudeau is just as irresponsible as any drug-pushing physician. If you believe that anyone can get off of any drug just by switching to organics and taking some stupid herb, well, then you’ve bought into the rethoric quite blindly. There is such a thing as a permanent disease state, and that’s a biological reality. How about a type I diabetic with DEAD β-cells? Should you ever become afflicted with this disease, you had better thank your lucky stars for the pharmaceutical companies, becauase you WILL be dependant on prescription drugs for the rest of your life, and you WILL die if you don’t take them. Trudeau undermines this simple reality. Should someone who truly needs drugs take his advice, the results could be quite catastrophic- and there have been reports of such occurances.

Aside from the generic advice of switching to organics, etc., most of Trudeau’s “natural cures” are bullshit anyway. And when I say bullshit, I mean that they are scientifically unsubstantiated. While this doesn’t see to bother most people, ask yourself this: if a medical treament hasn’t been scientifically proven, then how can anyone know whether it’s safe and effective? The answer is that you can’t. And while you may not like mainstream medicine’s treatments, just remember that they have nothing to do with what Trudeau reccommends. Just because one things sucks doesn’t make something else any better.

As for your comment that “at least Trudeau isn’t killing 300 people a day”… maybe not, but he’s scamming a much greater number.

What are you talking about? Thier only legal obligation is to increase profits.They regulate drugs as safe and effective.I guess vioxx was safe and effective.I guess zoloft was safe and effective?The list goes on.Sure,they don’t shoot the bullets,but they load the guns.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I rarely get sick.

I take an Advil once every few weeks if I have a headache.

The FDA doesn’t kill anyone or produce a single drug. They try to regulate the drug industry to reduce the number of quacks and bad drugs out there. They don’t always get it right but they do not intentionally poison people.

I believe there are a significant amount of worthless drugs out there just like there are a significant amount of worthless supplements.

[/quote]

People aren’t born insane.
They become insane.
Medical science works incredibly well?
How so?I don’t believe cancer rates haven’t dropped.If they have,by like 2 %,thats because they aren’t actually dying.Thats because they’re on their last leg doing Chemo and radiation.In no way has medical science not failed us.More people are dying of disease and cancer than they did in the 1950’s.If medical science hasn’t failed everyone wouldn’t be popping some new wonder drug or have cancer.Period.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:

The bottom line is medical science has failed.When more people are getting cancer more then ever,medical science has failed.

I think you are misinformed. When you remove the smokers and correct for aging cance rates have been dropping for 50 years.

Actual cancer rates (including smokers) have just started dropping.

Medical science works incredibly well.

And when you blame zoloft for a shooting you are terribly mistaken.

The shooting is a result of mental illness. Just because the drug didn’t cure the illness doesn’t mean it was responsible for the illness in the first place.

I think I am going to stop posting in this thread because your claims are getting silly.[/quote]

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Companies like Harris Labs tests drugs that the drug companies manufacture. Guess who pays for this. The companies manufacturing the drugs! [/quote]

Of course the drug companies pay for the research. Who else would pay for it? Do you have any idea how much it costs to put drugs through trials? The ONLY way that drugs can be tested is to make the drug companies pay for it. That doesn’t invalidate the research; it gives the drug companies incentive not to fuck up becuase they’ll lose billions if their products aren’t approved. Yeah VIOXX was a big fuck up, but most drugs aren’t VIOXX.

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
What are you talking about? Thier only legal obligation is to increase profits.They regulate drugs as safe and effective.I guess vioxx was safe and effective.I guess zoloft was safe and effective?The list goes on.Sure,they don’t shoot the bullets,but they load the guns.
[/quote]

Man no offense but you are literally parroting everything Kevin Trudeau says. It’s stupid.

People wouldn’t need drugs if they didn’t live like slobs.I thank you for your 300 plus menapausal mastatory aid,but I don’t buy it.I don’t believe every single thing the man says,but I’d take his word over some drug pusher ANY day.
This is the government we’re talking about.The same people who didn’t believe that 9/11 wouldn’t happen.The same people who took forever to respond to the most recent natural disaster.Yes,medical science has failed if more people are sicker more than ever.It’s like saying just because we won world war 2 doesn’t mean Germany lost.They did.

I’ve felt this way way before the book"natural cures…" hit the market.My mother had cancer and cured it without drugs and surgery.Thats right,she used those,quote,“stupid herbs and natural remedies”. There have been studies done showing natural remedies are more effective than drugs,and they are.Maybe you put too must trust in the FDA and FTC.Maybe you haven’t been around kids that are on these deadly drugs,and dying, to understand the full effect.If you look back into our history,you can see that people were making fun of the tabacco industry conspiracies before any study showed tabacco killed.Then,suddenly,these studies start to show that tabacco does kill.

But remember,this is the same government who KNEW tabacco was deadly before telling us.Thats right.They knew for 30 years that tabacco was deadly and never told us.It’s the exact same thing they’re doing with drugs right now.He’s ripping off a much greater number?I’ve been applying what I’ve read in his book to good use and I feel great.

Now,how am I being ripped off if I feel better?How am I being ripped off if I’m sleeping better and waking up feeling more energetic? Trudeau didn’t start the whole “natural remedies” movement.This has been going on for quite some time.There is no proof showing these natural remedies are “scientifically unsubstantiated”; and all doctors can’t say they’re scientifically unsubstantiated because when they go to medical school they DON’T learn how to use natural remedies.They only learn how to use drugs and surgery,not even cure cancer.Like Trudeau once said:the more money you make,the more money you need to make.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
Cthulhu,

I agree fully that it’s not natural to pop pills for the rest of your life, and that it’s always preferable to get off the drugs if you can eliminate the need for them.

But, again, you’re not seeing the logical fallacy here. Just because the medical establishment relies too much on prescription drugs does not mean that anything Trudeau says about “natural cures” or government conspiracies is true.

And, in many cases, the distinction between “natural” remedies and drugs is quite arbitrary. There’s really no reason why taking an herb should automatically be seen as healthier than taking a drug, especially when so many drugs are derived from naturally occurring compounds anyway. I will also remind you that NATURAL is not equivalent to HEALTHY. Some of the most toxic substances known to man are natural.

Medical science has not “failed” just because cancer rates are increasing. That’s nonsense. It just goes to show that whether people get cancer is beyond the control of the medical establishment. Medical science can’t keep people from eating McDonald’s food and living an unhealthy lifestyle.

Trudeau is just as irresponsible as any drug-pushing physician. If you believe that anyone can get off of any drug just by switching to organics and taking some stupid herb, well, then you’ve bought into the rethoric quite blindly. There is such a thing as a permanent disease state, and that’s a biological reality. How about a type I diabetic with DEAD β-cells? Should you ever become afflicted with this disease, you had better thank your lucky stars for the pharmaceutical companies, becauase you WILL be dependant on prescription drugs for the rest of your life, and you WILL die if you don’t take them. Trudeau undermines this simple reality. Should someone who truly needs drugs take his advice, the results could be quite catastrophic- and there have been reports of such occurances.

Aside from the generic advice of switching to organics, etc., most of Trudeau’s “natural cures” are bullshit anyway. And when I say bullshit, I mean that they are scientifically unsubstantiated. While this doesn’t see to bother most people, ask yourself this: if a medical treament hasn’t been scientifically proven, then how can anyone know whether it’s safe and effective? The answer is that you can’t. And while you may not like mainstream medicine’s treatments, just remember that they have nothing to do with what Trudeau reccommends. Just because one things sucks doesn’t make something else any better.

As for your comment that “at least Trudeau isn’t killing 300 people a day”… maybe not, but he’s scamming a much greater number.[/quote]

No I’m not.He isn’t saying anything about this.This is all coming from my own head.Don’t be pissed just because you’re making your childish,scathing remarks;make no sense whatsoever.

    [quote]belligerent wrote:

Cthulhu wrote:
What are you talking about? Thier only legal obligation is to increase profits.They regulate drugs as safe and effective.I guess vioxx was safe and effective.I guess zoloft was safe and effective?The list goes on.Sure,they don’t shoot the bullets,but they load the guns.

Man no offense but you are literally parroting everything Kevin Trudeau says. It’s stupid.

[/quote]

Uh,yeah,most drugs are like vioxx.Remember,almost 300 people die every single day because of drugs.If they won’t kill you,they’ll kill you.What I mean by this is if they don’t kill you by tomorrow,they’ll kill you slowly.Drugs cause problems.Thats why whenever I see someone on 20 different drugs,they have 30 different problems.They don’t deal with the cause of the problem,just the symptoms.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Companies like Harris Labs tests drugs that the drug companies manufacture. Guess who pays for this. The companies manufacturing the drugs!

Of course the drug companies pay for the research. Who else would pay for it? Do you have any idea how much it costs to put drugs through trials? The ONLY way that drugs can be tested is to make the drug companies pay for it. That doesn’t invalidate the research; it gives the drug companies incentive not to fuck up becuase they’ll lose billions if their products aren’t approved. Yeah VIOXX was a big fuck up, but most drugs aren’t VIOXX. [/quote]

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
People aren’t born insane.
They become insane.
[/quote]

What makes them become insane? The drug they are prescribed because they are diagnosed as insane?

Mortality rates for many many diseases have dropped over the last century. Life spans are much longer than they were.

Per a new study I just saw a week or 2 ago cancer rates have just turned the corner and started to drop.

Per all statistics when you correct the cancer rates for the aging population and smokers cancer rates have been dropping for 50 years.

This means people are delaying or not getting cancer now.

There are more cases of cancer because our population is increasing, but the likelyhood of you having cancer compared to someone that was your age 50 years ago is less.

I don’t care if you believe it. It is the truth.

People are living longer. More people are dying because we have a larger population, but people are living longer lives today.

Everyone is not popping a wonder drug. Everyone does not have cancer.

In fact the best way to prevent cancer is to eat your veggies, organically or otherwise grown.

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
Uh,yeah,most drugs are like vioxx.Remember,almost 300 people die every single day because of drugs.If they won’t kill you,they’ll kill you.What I mean by this is if they don’t kill you by tomorrow,they’ll kill you slowly.Drugs cause problems.Thats why whenever I see someone on 20 different drugs,they have 30 different problems.They don’t deal with the cause of the problem,just the symptoms.
…[/quote]

People are on 20 different drugs because they are dying. The drugs extend their lives.

There is no cure for death. Everyone dies.

I have no love for the drug companies. I think they often market unneeded drugs. Just like Trudeau markets unneeded supplements.

That doesn’t make sense.They’re on 20 different drugs because one drug causes a problem,then they treat that problem,I mean symptom, with another drug.He markets uneeded supplements? I use barefoots coral calcium and I feel better than ever.How is it uneeded.That is your opinion.How is what GNC does any different?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:
Uh,yeah,most drugs are like vioxx.Remember,almost 300 people die every single day because of drugs.If they won’t kill you,they’ll kill you.What I mean by this is if they don’t kill you by tomorrow,they’ll kill you slowly.Drugs cause problems.Thats why whenever I see someone on 20 different drugs,they have 30 different problems.They don’t deal with the cause of the problem,just the symptoms.

People are on 20 different drugs because they are dying. The drugs extend their lives.

There is no cure for death. Everyone dies.

I have no love for the drug companies. I think they often market unneeded drugs. Just like Trudeau markets unneeded supplements.
[/quote]

Mortality rates for SOME diseases have dropped over the last century.While mortality rates dropped over the last centery with some diseases,mortality rates have also gone up with new diseases.Everything has a balance.Where is this new study that shows cancer rates are at an all time low? They have more people on chemo,on their last leg,that doesn’t count as living.So if you say these people aren’t dying of cancer,they may not be.But they’re in hospitals on their last leg doing chemo,that doesn’t count.These people aren’t living.
I agree with you.EVERYONE should eat their fruit and veggies, organically or otherwise grown,but if everyone was eating more veggies and keeping away from toxic processed foods so many people wouldn’t be dying of cancer/disease and the FDA and drug companies would be out of business.Thats not the case though.Not everyone eats their veggies.Not everyone eat their fruits.Not everyone exercises.Not everyone cares about their health until they get cancer.Not everyone cares.Period. Thats the main problem why America is sick.It’s kinda like what happened on 9/11.That ,and everytime a war comes up,is the ONLY time America pulls together.A year later they’re all fighting and crimes back at an all time high.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:
People aren’t born insane.
They become insane.

What makes them become insane? The drug they are prescribed because they are diagnosed as insane?

Medical science works incredibly well?
How so?

Mortality rates for many many diseases have dropped over the last century. Life spans are much longer than they were.

I don’t believe cancer rates haven’t dropped.If they have,by like 2 %,thats because they aren’t actually dying.Thats because they’re on their last leg doing Chemo and radiation.

Per a new study I just saw a week or 2 ago cancer rates have just turned the corner and started to drop.

Per all statistics when you correct the cancer rates for the aging population and smokers cancer rates have been dropping for 50 years.

This means people are delaying or not getting cancer now.

There are more cases of cancer because our population is increasing, but the likelyhood of you having cancer compared to someone that was your age 50 years ago is less.

I don’t care if you believe it. It is the truth.

In no way has medical science not failed us.More people are dying of disease and cancer than they did in the 1950’s.

People are living longer. More people are dying because we have a larger population, but people are living longer lives today.

If medical science hasn’t failed everyone wouldn’t be popping some new wonder drug or have cancer.Perio

Everyone is not popping a wonder drug. Everyone does not have cancer.

In fact the best way to prevent cancer is to eat your veggies, organically or otherwise grown.[/quote]

I am wasting my time and you are rambling.

No sense trying to discuss it any further.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I am wasting my time and you are rambling.

No sense trying to discuss it any further.[/quote]

That is the smartest thing I’ve heard you say.Good call.

Did you even read what you wrote in this post? Talk about talking out of your ass…

For an agricultural scientists you haven’t done your homework. I can tell you are completely brainwashed by modern commercial (non-organic) farming. I can’t even start to tell you how wrong you are. I just hope you do some reseach so you don’t go around mis-informing people. There are almost no advantages of modern commerical farming over natural/organic except cost.

I just had to point out one thing though: cows are ruminants, they have a rumen to ferment their food. Grains do not ferment using the natural bacteria in the cow’s rumen. These means without man’s intervention keep the animals alive until slaughter using TONS of drugs, the cows would die. In simpler terms, if you fed a ruminant animal grain and offered it no medical attention it would likley die in a matter of weeks. Cows are meant to eat grasses just like we were meant to eat animal proteins. Cows are fed grain simply because its CHEAPER and EASIER than to fed them grasses, especially when uncle Sam keeps the price of corn at rock bottom. It has nothing to do with mineral cotent.

Unbelievable ingorance…

TopSirloin

[quote]tim290280 wrote:
Guys, just because Paul Check said something does not make him right!!!

I posted on this in the Check thred, but clearly an agricultural scientists thoughts aren’t as important as a strength coach talking out of his ass.

The main difference between foods is where and how it is grown and raised. As with the meat example (feeding corn to cattle, rather than grass) there are similar situations where poor soils are used to grow vegetables and fruit and don’t have the trace elements in them (plants don’t need them to grow, but we need them in our diet).

But this does not make organic any healthier, nor does it mean that the foods have any better nutrition. What it really means is that instead of controlling pests and diseases in a crop organic farmers do chants and plants cows horns with dung in them at the full moon (this is not an exageration, though not every one does this, some leave out the chanting). So you pay good money for produce that has large amounts of fecal contaminants and has usually been attacked by diseases and pests in some way or another.

Most organic farms would not survive if they were not surrounded by conventional farming.

Also conventional farming doesn’t have to prove a thing!!! It has gotten to the way it is through years of research, thats pretty good proof![/quote]

Alright, ladies…

Nah, I’m just kidding.

Let’s get one thing straight. We all have different opinions. No one is going to change their mind about things.

Zap mentioned that the cancer rates are dropping. Maybe its the new organic craze. Or maybe people are working out more. My girlfriend’s mom who hasn’t worked out in 20 some years started up again. Or, it could be the “new drugs” they are coming out with. I highly doubt it’s the new drugs, but that is MY opinion. We are all going to have different opinions.

I’ll admit right now that I just bought some supplements that include some “synthetic” products in it. I love eating organic foods (FYI, an organic banana tastes a lot better than a conventional one… but back on topic), but what I believe is that my muscles won’t reach their full potential without some more help (not steroids, just supplements). If these supplements take off 2 weeks of my life, that’s fine.

There is no study to show how much something will take off your life (except cigarettes, I thought they said 5 minutes/cigarette, but who knows), so I think all of us just need to know what is out there and weigh the importance of what our goals are. If I wasn’t into getting bigger muscles and just eating as healthy as I could, I’d be eating EVERYTHING organic, but that isn’t the case. I want my muscles to get bigger (without steroids, for now), so I need to do what I need to do. If that means taking a supplement that has synthetic stuff in it, so be it.

Of course, after the cycle of supplements, I’ll do a detox program. No question about that.

In conclusion, there are natural remedies out there. They might work, they might not.

Can’t knock it until you’ve tried it :wink:

Good day, everyone :slight_smile:

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
There are almost no advantages of modern commerical farming over natural/organic except cost.
[/quote]

Very simple, yet you can’t get around this comment, because it is basically fact!

Good post! :slight_smile:

[quote]HouseOfAtlas wrote:
TopSirloin wrote:
There are almost no advantages of modern commerical farming over natural/organic except cost.

Very simple, yet you can’t get around this comment, because it is basically fact!

Good post! :)[/quote]

Supply, availability etc. It all comes down to cost. Organic farming produces less than conventional. That is why it costs more.

It is probably better to eat 2 conventional vegetables than one organic vegetable.

It may be better to eat 2 organic vegetables than 2 conventional vegetables.

From the original poster, Cluster:
“Does anyone know whether organic produce is better nutritionally than standard stuff?”

Definition of nutrition:
“The process of nourishing or being nourished, especially the process by which a living organism assimilates food and uses it for growth and for replacement of tissues.”

Generally, yes, organic is better nutritionally because the “standard stuff” contains pesticides, hormones, etc. at a higher concentration than organic food. The pesticides and hormones are assimilated into the body.
See, for example:
http://www.ewg.org/news/story.php?id=5021
http://www.ewg.org/reports/bodyburden/es.php

Buy organic for apples, sweet bell peppers, celery, cherries, imported grapes, nectarines, peaches, pears, potatoes, red raspberries, spinach and strawberries and you’ll reduce your intake of pesticides in purchased foods by >90%. Whatever else you buy, standard or organic, be sure to wash and/or peel before eating.
http://www.foodnews.org/walletguide.php

Use either organic or “standard” poultry and pigs but stick with organic beef, diary and sheep foods.
“Currently, federal regulations allow these hormones to be used on growing cattle and sheep, but not on poultry (chickens, turkeys, ducks) or hogs (pigs). The […] hormones are not as useful in increasing weight gain of poultry or hogs.”
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Factsheet/Diet/fs37.hormones.cfm

For more details, check out:

See especially their “Know your sources” section:
http://www.ewg.org/about/knowsources.php

Primarily focused on breast cancer but includes many general cancer fact sheets, too:
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/factsheet/Factsheetalpha.cfm

I agree very much with the above post. Add strawberries to the list of products to buy organic.