Wow, you guys are making organic chemistry sound pretty sweet. I want to take it now, lol.
It took me a few seconds to figure out that organic chemistry is just the same what I just studied this noon… Well, just the bare essentials, as it is just secondary school, the game will get better at university if I am to become a pharmacist… Though my mates struggled with it a lot. Personally I pretty much love it along with biochem. Of course what we do is simply nothing compared to later tasks… I’m really looking forward to them 
Hello… Corey ?? (God it burns me up when somebody initiates a thread and doesn’t return)
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
I fucking suck at all math and sciences. My way around this? Take adderall. It is the cure all drug for academic woes.
I had D’s in both my math and science course before the spring finals. Spent a week hopped up on adderall and aced the tests and I came out with B’s and A’s.
I am a firm believer in using all options available to you to succeed (other than cheating), if that means you need to pop some pills or snort some coke…who cares. Do what you need to do in order to accomplish your goals.
Good luck man.
And please…no nerd get on my back b/c I use a drug to help me study.
Maybe the finals where written to be easier to help bring up students grades, maybe the professor applied a curve at the end, maybe the classes weren’t that hard to begin with… I have a hard time believing though that you went from D’s to ace’ing your finals just from studying a ton the week before. I’ve tutored way to much to believe this.
I’m not trying to be a jackass either… I just don’t want your average HS/college student getting the idea that studying a ton for the finals at the end will magically make up for a semester or year of not studying. It may work like this in easy classes, but it certainly doesn’t in real math and science classes. [/quote]
Let me put it this way, my entire family has ADD. I try to study for these classes but I just can’t, I can go about 30 minutes at a time max. Health insurance covers next to nothing for an adderall prescription and you end up paying ~$10 a pill (its vyvanse to be specific). So I knew I was fucking up in those classes, saved up some money and filled the prescription. This allowed me to study 5-6 hours at a time for an entire week. I went from being unable to apply myself to giving 100% effort. I don’t see how that’s so hard to believe.
I also am not saying this is the way to do things. I’m saying if you have trouble studying, there are ways to fix that,drugs, if you so choose. My finals example was to make a point of how much easier adderall/vyvanse made it for me to study.
It doesn’t just go for math and sciences, it goes for any subject.
- It sounds as if you have an emphasis on memorization. Now for organic chemistry while going totally against memorization is going too far, it really is not about memorization per se.
Consider other things that you know and understand. If I ask you what a tiger might do in a given situation, is the reason you can answer because you memorized it? If I ask what your friend might do, would you have to have done some memorization drill to be able to answer? If I ask you what would happen if I cut a flower and left it out in the hot desert, would you be unable to answer this if you hadn’t drilled with flash cards on this question again and again?
It sounds as if you need to focus much more on understanding why things do what they do.
That said, also making yourself some flashcards is useful.
- The traditional standard for studying is 2 hours study time per week for every 1 hour of course credit. That is part of the reason why 15 credits per semester is considered full time: 15 hours in the classroom plus an expected 30 hours study time, totalling 45 hours which is a full time job.
Of course by and large most students today are too lazy for this, and also some don’t need it.
It is not unusual for organic chemistry to be “unfair” in this regard in that even more study time may be needed than the above traditional standard.
- A good general principle is that for every lecture you should be ready to be able to get at least a B (or if your standards are low, a C) if there were a surprise quiz that day on all the lectures to date.
When this standard is met, two things happen: First, you will be far more equipped to understand the lecture as it is being given. Instead of it being gobbledygook that is impossible to remember, it will be referring to things you understand and your mind already has “shelves” for, so to speak. And second, you will never be in the hole in the days before a scheduled examination: your task will be one of polishing up rather than desperately trying to climb up from the sub-basement.
It’s pretty clear, having failed in previous attempts, that you were not meeting this standard along the way. Going into lectures with an “F” knowledge thus far of previous lectures means the current one will not be understood, thus perpetuating the pattern.
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There are many good study aid books available with problems and explanations. As many have said above, work the problems.
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Has it been the same professor every time you have failed with? If so, then while the fault is surely not entirely his, as other students passed or even earned A’s, it may be that a different professor could suit your learning style better. If that is not available at your university, you could see if it would be acceptable to take the class at a local community college, particularly as there are time and money issues in question. It’s quite possible the credits would be accepted. Can’t know till you ask.
Thanks much for your replies everyone. I was hesitant to post anything for fear of everyone just calling me a dumbass.
As for the past failures, I did not really take the class all that seriously until this semester. In the past I would study, but not enough as I should have. And I kept messing up; I didn’t realize we had a test until I walked into class one semester, and missed a test completely because of spring break another. Stupid I know. I thought I could do it this semester if I really tried.
I think some of you nailed it right on the head; it’s not the time, it’s the quality of my study time. A lot of my time was in fact spent reading the book. I would do the in-chapter problems and try to do as many of the end of chapter problems as I could, but I guess that’s not enough. Practicing more problems probably would have helped me a lot. Maybe I could look online for other additional problems?
Another thing now that I look back on which may have actually hurt me is reviewing old tests that the professor posted with answers. I would read through the problems, look at the answers and sort of figure it out backwards. It made me feel like I understood it, but when you have to start from scratch on your own it’s a whole different story.
I don’t want to bore everyone with my life story, but basically, I got into a bad crowd during middle school and blew off school completely. Though I straightened up my act otherwise within a few years, the academic trend continued until about my senior year in high school (which is why I had to do the community college/transfer route). It’s a wonder I graduated at all.
Long story short, for the most part, I seem to completely lack the study skills that most people learn throughout school, and I think it’s what is really hurting me here. Not meaning to sound arrogant, but I’ve always been the kind of guy that could study a few hours before the test and do fine, but when it comes to this subject, you just can’t do that.
It’s like I’ve been able to hop over all of the little hills in school thus far, but the mountain that is Organic Chemistry looms at the finish line… dramatic eh? 
DOA: you mentioned speaking to an advisor about substituting class(es) for chemistry. Is this something that Universities do? I know nobody can answer that except an advisor (who I’ve already scheduled an appointment with), just wondering if you’ve had any experience there.
Sharp: I can’t speak for other universities but here at Michigan State you are required to take all of the basic biology classes, and a lot (if not most) of your zoology classes are highly related to biology (genetics, evolution, invert/vert biology, etc). An intro biology class would definitely be a few steps backwards, I don’t know how you could have a legitimate zoology degree without fulfilling that requirement.
Bill, thanks a lot for the response.
I’ve now taken it with three different profs. Unfortunately, the only prof that teaches it during the summer is undoubtedly the most difficult and demanding. That, in addition to it being twice the speed of the normal semester, made for an extremely poor choice to be the one I really tried at.
The thing that was hardest for me was reactions and mechanisms, what does what. I don’t understand how anyone can keep the 50 or so reactions that we learned straight for a test and be able to whip them out whenever they need to and apply them to various different situations. How can you know these without memorizing them?
You are absolutely right about showing up to class unprepared. Next time I will definitely be ahead of the class rather than following.
Like I mentioned, I’m speaking with an advisor on Monday after I get my grade to discuss my options. I’m not sure if I can take my last credits at another school or not, I think the last 30 or so have to be at MSU.
[quote]CoreyK wrote:
Long story short, for the most part, I seem to completely lack the study skills that most people learn throughout school, and I think it’s what is really hurting me here. Not meaning to sound arrogant, but I’ve always been the kind of guy that could study a few hours before the test and do fine, but when it comes to this subject, you just can’t do that.
It’s like I’ve been able to hop over all of the little hills in school thus far, but the mountain that is Organic Chemistry looms at the finish line… dramatic eh? ;)[/quote]
Don’t feel bad, most people in American schools have this problem, and for basically the same reasons as you are listing. Most people go through their freshman/sophomore year of college basically blowing things off because they are easy. Some people, if they have easy enough majors, can continue this until they graduate since the classes never really get much harder. In some majors though, most notably math and science ones, the classes tend to get much harder once you hit the junior/senior level. This inevitably catches many people off guard, not only because they never really learned the material from the first two years as well as they should have, but also because they never learned to study either.
At least you’ve recognized it.
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Don’t feel bad, most people in American schools have this problem, and for basically the same reasons as you are listing. Most people go through their freshman/sophomore year of college basically blowing things off because they are easy. Some people, if they have easy enough majors, can continue this until they graduate since the classes never really get much harder. In some majors though, most notably math and science ones, the classes tend to get much harder once you hit the junior/senior level. This inevitably catches many people off guard, not only because they never really learned the material from the first two years as well as they should have, but also because they never learned to study either.
At least you’ve recognized it. [/quote]
Well said, that is exactly how I feel.
Although zoology isn’t what I consider an easy major, it’s definitely not a very difficult one either. I’ve been able to get past my other classes with minimal studying, mostly I suppose because I enjoy them (I’d take Animal Behavior every semester if I could!).
It’s funny though, the classes my advisors built up to be difficult (genetics, evolution, etc.) weren’t that bad, yet nobody really mentioned organic chemistry…
The double-speed course is brutal. I never did it in organic chemistry but did it in inorganic, and it is not the way to go.
There really is quite a lot, if I may say so, to the point I was making about how the mind remembers things. For example if you were interested in animals you would probably have no trouble telling me basics about 50 kinds of animals, without ever having even tried to “memorize” the information.
As another example: You’ll have to fill the details in one this one. You are asking for directions. Someone gives you a 5-step route how to get to your destination. Now this is the part you have to fill in, because I don’t have the information: Each landmark he names is something that already has a place in your mind. It’s a store that you know well, or a street that you are completely familiar with, and so forth.
If this person is naming these things that you know well, then your mind has no problem absorbing these directions. Oh, conceivably it might be handy to still write down the order of the landmarks, but basically what I’ve just described is the kind of learning the mind can readily do.
Now suppose that each step that the person is talking about involves landmarks and streets that you have never, ever heard of.
Your mind is in a completely different mental state trying to absorb this information, as it doesn’t have “places” already established for the concepts being referred to, and it’s a very difficult learning process. If you were asked about it weeks later, never having actually followed the directions, you’d have no hope of being able to recall it.
Whereas in the first example, especially if that same day you went and ran the directions for yourself, then did it a few more times in the following weeks, you could rattle it right off and it would not seem like “memorization” at all.
Furthermore, on the reaction mechanisms, again as mentioned by another it is a question much more of understanding than of memorizing. For example in graduate school I did a non-credit “bull session” thing a professor did in the evening which was just reaction mechanisms, and it was coming up with plausible mechanisms for various challenges. So definitely not memorized.
Rather it’s a question of, when learning it, OK here’s my nucleophile, there’s a target for it to attack… why wouldn’t it attack? No good reason why not… okay, let’s try that… what happens then? OK then…"
Now it helps greatly if you’ve worked similar problems many times before, but really it is not memorization per se.
And when it’s not memorization per se, but more like being asked what your friend would do in a given situation, that is natural to how the mind works.
I’m a firm believer in learning during sleeping. That means your mind will process the information you engage throughout the day while you are asleep. That’s why I often study right before bedtime. So far, it’s working out for me. In my opinion, organic chemestry is mostly about learning stuff by heart. There aren’t that many problems you have to solve by thinking much. It helps alot to discuss, or even arguing with a study partner about the mechanism. However, I’ve never had organic chemistry classes. Is it pretty much like biochemistry?
I loved organic chem. It comes easy to me. But memorization is not key because if you forget one step, you’re fucked.
Rather try and understand the logic behind every equation, the compounds and their characteristics. If you have that down, you can pretty much tell what will react with what and why(properties) and learn the exceptions to the rule.
[quote]Andy63477 wrote:
In my opinion, organic chemestry is mostly about learning stuff by heart. There aren’t that many problems you have to solve by thinking much… However, I’ve never had organic chemistry classes. Is it pretty much like biochemistry?[/quote]
Just what was needed: opinions on what is needed from someone who has never taken it.
As to whether it is like biochemistry: Not really.
Just an update for anyone interested: I passed! 
I got the absolute bare minimum on the final exam to pass and just slid by, lol.
Kind of bittersweet, I was extremely pumped, but I’ve been thrown right into the second class and it’s hard as hell.
I’m a lot more optimistic about it now though; I found out that if I don’t pass this one I can move home and MSU will more than likely let me take it at the University right in town in the fall and finish up school there. That way, I don’t need to find a place to live here next year, can work on getting a job, etc.
Apparently there’s a person at the University called the Ombudsmen?
My dad told me about it, and it’s basically a person in a position to bypass University policies for students in situations like mine. They’re the one I’ll need to talk to in the event that I don’t pass this class.
Congratulations!
This was the accelerated summer class? Even more of an accomplishment, as you know.
Congrats. I am happy for anyone that passes OC.
I had organic chemistry nightmares for 2 years after I graduated… I hated that class…
Thanks!
Yeah, accelerated summer Orgo 1, now I’m in accelerated summer Orgo 2 AND the orgo lab.
Life is not fun right now.
Haha…I work in organic synthesis right now for my undergrad research. To me it’s horribly easy since I have four semesters of organic chem under my belt, but I remember being in your shoes. It was my 1st chemistry class in college and the class scared me shitless. This was the 1st class my professor ever taught, and I knew nobody I could go to for help. Ended up getting a B, but things just started to click. Once you really see the patterns of how the mechanisms actually work, then everything else is a cakewalk.
Organic chemistry in the lab is a bitch, just fyi. Haha most of the things you learn in there don’t work 99% of the time in real life.
And I still refuse to pronounce if “Vittig”.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Andy63477 wrote:
In my opinion, organic chemestry is mostly about learning stuff by heart. There aren’t that many problems you have to solve by thinking much… However, I’ve never had organic chemistry classes. Is it pretty much like biochemistry?
Just what was needed: opinions on what is needed from someone who has never taken it.
As to whether it is like biochemistry: Not really.
[/quote]
Agreed. Although for me, once we got to metabolism there were a lot of organic chem themes that were going on. At least that’s how I saw it. It’s one thing to see the Kreb’s Cycle in high school, but it’s a totally new thing once you can look at it from an organic chemistry standpoint. Mechanism-based enzyme inhibitors were also pretty cool too when we did them.
More power to ya, man! I was…am, a bioengineer, just graduated in May, and the class that kicked my ass was Biotransport and fluid dynamics. Thought I would quit right there and then, and now I’m on track to do my doctorate. Just gotta bang it out, by any means necessary, like your trying to set a new PR, lol