We love talking about God!
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh goody, then where did it all come from? ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t count. Shit either came from something or nothing. Those are your 2 choices, there is not a third.
[/quote]
lol
I’ll go with something. And then I’ll admit that I dont know what that something is.
Or, its also possible that the universe has always existed. But that’d be crrrraaaazzzzzzzy, since everything has to come from something… except for the magical being some people made up a long time ago.
You still have not given one compelling argument why the something absolutely would have to be Yahweh. I’m all ears.[/quote]
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
THIS universe has not always existed. That is pretty verifiable, however it would no matter if it did. As I explained before it does not matter there were a series of universes (accrdien universe theory), if we exist in a mutiverse, or if the universe is an illusion, so long as it exists, it has a sufficient reason for doing so.
I never said anything resembling God is YHWY, I only claim that if something unusual happens, I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim.
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Can I just butt in here? Presumably we’re talking about the God of Christianity(and Judaism if you consider them the same God)? What about Zeus/Jupiter, Poseidon/Neptune, Artimes/Diana, Nike/Victoria? Don’t they get a look in? What about the demigods like Heracles, Persius, Alexander the Great etc? Monotheism is Godist! Stop this Godism please.[/quote]
The cosmological argument on its own doesn’t give one enough information to determine who God is, however it does give one some insight into his properties. From the argument and its derivatives he is non contingent, one, moral, has a will and mind, gives purpose and all other things are contingent upon him. So your rant on why couldn’t contingent gods have done it is done in ignorance when from the argument logically follows monotheism. I am sure Pat would be more than happy to explain why God happens to be the christian one once one concedes that he exists in the first place.[/quote]
That just sounds extremely Godist to me. How can you just say other Gods don’t exist? Every God has the right to exist and all Gods are created equal in my opinion. To discriminate against Gods based on their Godicity is just plain Godist! I’m just shocked at the Godism that goes on here.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh goody, then where did it all come from? ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t count. Shit either came from something or nothing. Those are your 2 choices, there is not a third.
[/quote]
lol
I’ll go with something. And then I’ll admit that I dont know what that something is.
Or, its also possible that the universe has always existed. But that’d be crrrraaaazzzzzzzy, since everything has to come from something… except for the magical being some people made up a long time ago.
You still have not given one compelling argument why the something absolutely would have to be Yahweh. I’m all ears.[/quote]
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
THIS universe has not always existed. That is pretty verifiable, however it would no matter if it did. As I explained before it does not matter there were a series of universes (accrdien universe theory), if we exist in a mutiverse, or if the universe is an illusion, so long as it exists, it has a sufficient reason for doing so.
I never said anything resembling God is YHWY, I only claim that if something unusual happens, I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim.
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Out of curiosity how would you verify the Earth has not always been here.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim. >>>[/quote]I see overwhelming evidence and hence assume that neither the movement of a single sub atomic particle nor the firing of a single synapse in the brain of man or beast happens without the direct involvement of He who works ALL things according to the council of His own will. (Ephesians 1:11)
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh goody, then where did it all come from? ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t count. Shit either came from something or nothing. Those are your 2 choices, there is not a third.
[/quote]
lol
I’ll go with something. And then I’ll admit that I dont know what that something is.
Or, its also possible that the universe has always existed. But that’d be crrrraaaazzzzzzzy, since everything has to come from something… except for the magical being some people made up a long time ago.
You still have not given one compelling argument why the something absolutely would have to be Yahweh. I’m all ears.[/quote]
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
THIS universe has not always existed. That is pretty verifiable, however it would no matter if it did. As I explained before it does not matter there were a series of universes (accrdien universe theory), if we exist in a mutiverse, or if the universe is an illusion, so long as it exists, it has a sufficient reason for doing so.
I never said anything resembling God is YHWY, I only claim that if something unusual happens, I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim.
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Can I just butt in here? Presumably we’re talking about the God of Christianity(and Judaism if you consider them the same God)? What about Zeus/Jupiter, Poseidon/Neptune, Artimes/Diana, Nike/Victoria? Don’t they get a look in? What about the demigods like Heracles, Persius, Alexander the Great etc? Monotheism is Godist! Stop this Godism please.[/quote]
You presume incorrectly…I am not talking about a type of God, just God,the creator of all that exists…What you call him doesn’t change what he is.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim. >>>[/quote]I see overwhelming evidence and hence assume that neither the movement of a single sub atomic particle nor the firing of a single synapse in the brain of man or beast happens without the direct involvement of He who works ALL things according to the council of His own will. (Ephesians 1:11)
[/quote]
Well, then I would request you present this evidence.
Science is real tirib, the cause of every effect is not directly God, it’s the result of what he made and how he made it.
And you do not understand what is inferred by ‘God of gaps’. God of gaps means that every thing we don’t know, God did it. So if you pushed your chair in, came back later and found it out again for an unknown reason, you assume God came down and pull the chair out again.
The Bible is not a science book or, the ‘Great Big Book of Everything with Everything Inside’, nor should be for it would be impossibly long.
And that’s not what Eph. 1:11 is talking about.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Burden of proof is on you, you made the assertion…[/quote]
I postulated a sky wizard?
Damn, I didn’t even know.[/quote]
Don’t be a chump. “Cosmology is a God of gaps argument? Prove it…Burden of proof is on you, you made the assertion…” That is what pat told you to prove, since you asserted it, not that you postulated a sky wizard. Don’t be a bitch.[/quote]
I never said cosmology was a God of the Gaps argument. I said his assertions were. To say God did it with no proof is a God of the Gaps argument.
Don’t be a retard.[/quote]
Pat clearly pointed out that it wasn’t a G-d of gaps, it was cosmology. You then proceeded to say that it was a G-d of gaps argument. He told you to prove it, you then did whatever you call that.
So, prove it. Don’t be you an atheist. ;)[/quote]
“To say God did it with no proof is a God of the Gaps argument.”[/quote]
And you’ll never, ever, ever, ever, find anywhere where I have penciled in God where there is an unknown or with out proof.
I said nor claimed no such thing, so what are you talking about?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh goody, then where did it all come from? ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t count. Shit either came from something or nothing. Those are your 2 choices, there is not a third.
[/quote]
lol
I’ll go with something. And then I’ll admit that I dont know what that something is.
Or, its also possible that the universe has always existed. But that’d be crrrraaaazzzzzzzy, since everything has to come from something… except for the magical being some people made up a long time ago.
You still have not given one compelling argument why the something absolutely would have to be Yahweh. I’m all ears.[/quote]
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
THIS universe has not always existed. That is pretty verifiable, however it would no matter if it did. As I explained before it does not matter there were a series of universes (accrdien universe theory), if we exist in a mutiverse, or if the universe is an illusion, so long as it exists, it has a sufficient reason for doing so.
I never said anything resembling God is YHWY, I only claim that if something unusual happens, I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim.
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Out of curiosity how would you verify the Earth has not always been here.
[/quote]
Empirically you can test it and the results will correlate with an approximate 4.5 billion year existence, but you cannot prove it deductively. Hell, we can’t prove the Earth didn’t suddenly pop in to existence 5 minutes ago.
Since this subject has changed , how does any one know the earth has not always existed, I do not believe any one can claim a fact either way. IMO any one making a statement either way would have to claim that it was their opinion
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh goody, then where did it all come from? ‘I don’t know’ doesn’t count. Shit either came from something or nothing. Those are your 2 choices, there is not a third.
[/quote]
lol
I’ll go with something. And then I’ll admit that I dont know what that something is.
Or, its also possible that the universe has always existed. But that’d be crrrraaaazzzzzzzy, since everything has to come from something… except for the magical being some people made up a long time ago.
You still have not given one compelling argument why the something absolutely would have to be Yahweh. I’m all ears.[/quote]
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
THIS universe has not always existed. That is pretty verifiable, however it would no matter if it did. As I explained before it does not matter there were a series of universes (accrdien universe theory), if we exist in a mutiverse, or if the universe is an illusion, so long as it exists, it has a sufficient reason for doing so.
I never said anything resembling God is YHWY, I only claim that if something unusual happens, I do not assume direct involvement from God unless there is sufficient evidence to make such a claim.
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Can I just butt in here? Presumably we’re talking about the God of Christianity(and Judaism if you consider them the same God)? What about Zeus/Jupiter, Poseidon/Neptune, Artimes/Diana, Nike/Victoria? Don’t they get a look in? What about the demigods like Heracles, Persius, Alexander the Great etc? Monotheism is Godist! Stop this Godism please.[/quote]
The cosmological argument on its own doesn’t give one enough information to determine who God is, however it does give one some insight into his properties. From the argument and its derivatives he is non contingent, one, moral, has a will and mind, gives purpose and all other things are contingent upon him. So your rant on why couldn’t contingent gods have done it is done in ignorance when from the argument logically follows monotheism. I am sure Pat would be more than happy to explain why God happens to be the christian one once one concedes that he exists in the first place.[/quote]
Yup.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
We love talking about God![/quote]
I am a sucker for a challenge…
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
“The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do, you’ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think.” - William Buckley
[/quote]
Very well said. You open your mind do your research and then form an opinion based on facts and logic. People that keep a perpetual open mind are fools being blown about by changing winds. People that never evaluate before forming their opinions are a different kind of fool.
[quote]pat wrote:
And you’ll never, ever, ever, ever, find anywhere where I have penciled in God where there is an unknown or with out proof.
I said nor claimed no such thing, so what are you talking about?[/quote]
Except you do exactly that whenever you point out that the cause of the universe is unknown and pencil in God.
[quote]pat wrote:
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
[/quote]
lol. I’ve eliminated the flying spaghetti monster too. By your logic, I shouldnt.
I dont need compelling evidence that it WASNT Yahweh, the god of YOUR BIBLE. You need to show compelling evidence that it WAS. This is the burden of proof, which you continue to not understand.
Ok.
Bullshit. You’re a Catholic, meaning you believe the Catholic god (who is named Yahweh and posseses very specific attributes) exists.
This has nothing to do with anything.
[quote]
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Again with the fallacies.
You present a false choice between “God” and “Nothing”.
You fail to see the difference between “Something caused our universe to exist” and “God caused our universe to exist”
You jump to the conclusion that the something absolutely MUST be God, and when you say “god” you’re clearly referring to something with attributes that go beyond “The thing that caused our universe to exist”.
Your entire premise is flawed and you’re filling in a gap with “It must have been God!”
Still, God of Gaps.
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
“The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do, you’ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think.” - William Buckley
[/quote]
Very well said. You open your mind do your research and then form an opinion based on facts and logic. People that keep a perpetual open mind are fools being blown about by changing winds. People that never evaluate before forming their opinions are a different kind of fool. [/quote]
What about changing your opinion based on new information and logic? Where does that fall into the spectrum?
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
“The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do, you’ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think.” - William Buckley
[/quote]
Very well said. You open your mind do your research and then form an opinion based on facts and logic. People that keep a perpetual open mind are fools being blown about by changing winds. People that never evaluate before forming their opinions are a different kind of fool. [/quote]
And does tha mean you never learn more about the subject
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
pat wrote:
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
lol. I’ve eliminated the flying spaghetti monster too. By your logic, I shouldnt.
[/quote]
If you don’t know and have no clue, eliminating any variables with out any cause is plain foolish.
You made that claim, not me. I am simply discussing the Uncaused-cause, Prime Mover, Necessary being. Your trying to make a flying leap. If you don’t believe in God, there is no point discussing his name or nature…Nothingness has no properties.
Ok.
And I made no arguments what so ever about “Catholic” Gods or any other kind.
Yeah it does, that would be filling gaps with God. That’s what you’re saying I am doing, which just means you have a rudimentary grasp of cosmology, at best.
[quote]
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh.
Again with the fallacies.
You present a false choice between “God” and “Nothing”.
You fail to see the difference between “Something caused our universe to exist” and “God caused our universe to exist”
You jump to the conclusion that the something absolutely MUST be God, and when you say “god” you’re clearly referring to something with attributes that go beyond “The thing that caused our universe to exist”.
Your entire premise is flawed and you’re filling in a gap with “It must have been God!”
Still, God of Gaps.[/quote]
I am not sure you understand what the word gap means, where is the gap? In detail show me.
There is no false choice those are the only choices, some thing from something, or something from nothing. If there’s a third option let’s see it.
Sure I am Catholic, but I am not arguing Catholic theology, I am arguing cosmology. Where is the gap in cosmology? Put your money where your mouth is and show the gap…
(hopefully I got the fucking tags right this time)
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So let me get this strait, you don’t know the origin of the universe, but the one thing it can not be is God? How did this process elimination proceed? Have you eliminated anything else, or by default God cannot be a factor at all?
[/quote]
lol. I’ve eliminated the flying spaghetti monster too. By your logic, I shouldnt.
I dont need compelling evidence that it WASNT Yahweh, the god of YOUR BIBLE. You need to show compelling evidence that it WAS. This is the burden of proof, which you continue to not understand.
Ok.
Bullshit. You’re a Catholic, meaning you believe the Catholic god (who is named Yahweh and posseses very specific attributes) exists.
This has nothing to do with anything.
[quote]
If you believe God exists, then we can argue about his nature and his method of revelation. If you dont believe in God, then something that does not exist doing cannot be anything, much less a Yahweh. [/quote]
Again with the fallacies.
You present a false choice between “God” and “Nothing”.
You fail to see the difference between “Something caused our universe to exist” and “God caused our universe to exist”
You jump to the conclusion that the something absolutely MUST be God, and when you say “god” you’re clearly referring to something with attributes that go beyond “The thing that caused our universe to exist”.
Your entire premise is flawed and you’re filling in a gap with “It must have been God!”
Still, God of Gaps.[/quote]
And please list the falacy because, well no logical fallacies were committed…You really should read the link I provided, it’s save you a lot of trouble…Cosmology is little more than a numberless algebraic expression. It’s almost to simple to comprehend, hence it has no gaps. If it did, that would have been exposed hundreds of years ago…
Einstein was a fraud, and plagiarist.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
And you’ll never, ever, ever, ever, find anywhere where I have penciled in God where there is an unknown or with out proof.
I said nor claimed no such thing, so what are you talking about?[/quote]
Except you do exactly that whenever you point out that the cause of the universe is unknown and pencil in God.[/quote]
I have done nothing of the sort, show me where I have done that at all…