Onward ? Into Waziristan!

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
hedo wrote:
The article isn’t a very good description of dehumanization during a war. More about racism and stereotyping.

All combat is by it’s very nature dehumanizing in that it is very difficult to kill another man. You must fight for something in war, whether it be land, revenge or a way of life. You need to dehumanize the enemy to kill. You shoot a soldier not a man. You aim to destroy a tank not it’s occupants. The death of the man is a consequence.

The Unites States isn’t fighting for land, the most common of all disputes, particularly in European history. The US is fighting for an ideal and a way of life. We want the world to live terror free and Democratic. The enemy doesn’t. We are also trying to hobble the terrorists and kill as many of them as possible. They would prefer we didn’t and have enlisted fellow travellers and the ever present useful idiots as allies. The weak resent this. The opinion of the enemy is of no concern.

First world nations don’t fight each other anymore because they are run by reasonable and pragmatic men. Much of the ME is not run by reasonable and prgmatic men and they also subscribe to an idealogy that breeds fanaticism and gives moral authority to kill those who don’t believe in the same God. Bad combination.

The world is slowing waking up to the seriousness of the situation. This spells bad news for the ME. The problems will be dealt with and the West is growing weary of the threat and is beginning to realize that peace with many of these countries is quite hopeless. The US has the might to deal with it. Others don’t. In the end the US will prevail, the level of pain that causes the ME is really up to them.

Good post, Hedo.

I would add that the “dehumanization” angle is more of a “pop theory” than anything quite reliable as real criticism. After all, war is full of hard, difficult choices, and “total war” advocates believe that the trade-off of a harsher war actually saves lives in the long run.

By any measure, isn’t the desire to fight more ruthlessly now to save more lives later the very opposite of “dehumanization”, whatever that trendy term means?

From the looks of “dehumanization theory” - which flirts with false conciousness conspiracies of radical politics (“the media dehumanizes people so as to get people on board with the war”, etc.) - it is another venture down the road of “feel-good” policy that does little to actually prevent harm from being done. War is awful and hellish - trying to “humanize” it according to this theory will only make wars drag on, for one simple reason: unless “dehumanization theory” is the lowest common denominator, then someone will always use its precepts to take advantage of their opponent.

Such a hope is mere utopian fantasy - an illusory hope that suddenly your enemy will lay down their arms and experience an epiphany of loving behavior. If war has taught us anything it’s that human nature won’t work like that, so fighting wars like that is a recipe for wasted lives.

Wage war to win and to break the back of your opponent. That doesn’t always mean “carpet bomb” - but it does mean teaching your enemy to fear you and to think twice about raising arms against you in the first place. “Dehumanization theory” is a trip down a familiar, dangerous road - and should be resigned to coffee house and never the war room.[/quote]

T Bolt

I will agree that the dehumanization aspect, as quoted in the Wikpedia entry reeks of pop culture. As I saud I think it adressed racial and ethnic stereotyping more then anything else.

My opinion is that the theory of fighting wars is often debated among pundits, generals and the general population and much of this takes place in the comfortable vacuum of academia and coffee houses. In the field combat hasn’t changed very much on the gut level. Kill your enemy, quickly and w/o pity. Whether this is done with a rock, sword or M-1a1, the goal is the same. A soldier from the civil war or WW1, could with some training adapt to the modern battlefield. My thoughts on the dehumanization process are the key of the combat soldier to cope with killing his enemy. If he views him as a man then he will hesitate and lose. He must view his enemy as an objective and the means to an end in order to maintain his sanity. This is how it has been for all times, in my opinion. This view must be shared by the civilian population and visited upon the enemy if war is to have an outcome worthy of the sacrafice. The US didn’t start this latest go around, despite what the apologists say. The enemy has no one to blame but themselves. The civilians will suffer for the mistakes of a few…they always do.

I’ve always thought that the military must remain lethal, deadly and feared and when objectives are set the civilians must back off and let them work. Dehumanizing absolutely. Effective yes. Most of the discussion about winning hearts and minds has never worked and to be honest will never work. It goes against human nature. This hasn’t changed in centuries and I see these concepts as merely passing fads.

I think the total war concept will be used in the coming years. Our enemy will require it to be defeated. Our citizens will demand it eventually. You will see as radical change in the world order as the world did after WW2.

When will the US take the gloves off? After the Islamic Radicals detonate a WMD in the US. I don’t think anything else will initiate it and I don’t think the population will settle for anything less when it does. By the way the US could lock the gates and isolate itself right now and it will not stop the activities and agenda of the enemy. It’s fine to understand the enemy but it is foolish to agree with him or accept his advice on how to fight him.

JeffR, why do you call Orion bota? I guess I missed it’s inception. Just curious.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:

It has to happen to you before it really matters? I lost a shit pile of money in a market that was very much affected by 9/11.

Well, see, that’s where timing is of the essence. On September 12th, I heavily bought gold, silver and mining stocks, General Dynamics and oil stocks. It has worked out nicely. If I had shorted the airlines beforehand it would have worked out even better.

Did they ever find out who bought all those airline put options shortly before the attack?[/quote]

Great minds think alike. ;D

(Though I went with Fidelity’s Defense fund)

Missed this thread until now.

People here time and again openly compare their “enemy” with cockroaches and vermin. Especially those guys, whose morality mace hangs loose, who never cease to use high calibre ammunition like like “nazis” and “islamofascists”.
Also, some guy wrote genuine crap on dehumanization.
A soldier surely has to dehumanize his enemies to a certain factor.
But that doesn’t mean his enemy is everywhere, like, among the local population. Even in WW2, there are many anecdotes where grunts and officers meet off the field, often unintentionally and under strange circumstances, and part respectfully. The very reason will call the battlefield the field of honor is because we engage the opponent with the intent of killing,maiming and crippling him-but only there. We leave with our honor(if we had any) intact-despite the atrocities we committed willingly and knowingly. Off the field, we don’t have to be friends. But at least we can be respectful rivals.

Oh, just go on a do what you like. Whatever will be, this middle-east escapade is America’s last great war-adventure. (Assuming you will botch the American Union).

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I am not terribly concerned over you “getting started” on anything - most of what you offer is a generic whine over bad things in war, which does nothing to advance the debate. [/quote]

Bad things? Try catastrophes.

The “debate” as you call it was about the use of statistics, probability and risk assessment to make sound decisions about saving the maximum number of lives. I provided a concrete figure (straight from the DoD) that shows thousands of Americans lost their lives because of the war. Anyone with half a brain, can see that the American populace got absolutely nothing out of the carnage.

It seems that - and I insist on the seems - you couldn’t care less how many innocent Iraqis die as long as you manage to pick who’s in charge there and build bases in their country. Take the many people who have called for carpet bombing the ME.

I am concerned that you’ll come out of this war having learned nothing about combating terrorism, while the terrorists would have gained field training (maybe even 190,000 weapons courtesy of the Pentagon).

If you don’t admit that invading Iraq was a humongous mistake, you’re bound to repeat it elsewhere. You can’t get away with causing the deaths of countless people and then going…“oops, we really thought they WMDs”. Do some fuckin’ homework for crying out loud, and stop making up boogeymen.

There isn’t a single country on earth that’ll give WMDs to terrorists who want to kill American civilians. None. Nada. Zero. Nill. Niette. Go back to chasing Ben Laden and his gang, not bombing countries that haven’t done anything to you.

What you did in Iraq could be analogous to what that Swedish moronic cop did to the bulky dude in another thread. Except that she would have beaten the crap out of him and severed his limbs only to find out that the “muscle” was in fact, an inflatable costume. And oh, that was a legitimate cop albeit an ignorant one, not some self-appointed hack.

Hopefully, common sense will ultimately prevail and Congress shall put some leaches on the criminal duo of the White House.

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
I lost family in 9/11 (My cousin was killed in one of Towers), but I am not as worried about terrorist attacks as some. [/quote]

Most sincere condolences. May he/she rest in peace.

[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
JeffR, why do you call Orion bota? I guess I missed it’s inception. Just curious.[/quote]

He’s the bicycler of the anschluss. (bota)

Referencing his hobby of bicycling and some of the old photos of nazi’s entering territory (austria) riding flower-laden bicycles.

He is one of the most spiteful of our Anti-Americans and I like to remind him of the horror of his country’s recent past.

JeffR

[quote]hedo wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
hedo wrote:
The article isn’t a very good description of dehumanization during a war. More about racism and stereotyping.

All combat is by it’s very nature dehumanizing in that it is very difficult to kill another man. You must fight for something in war, whether it be land, revenge or a way of life. You need to dehumanize the enemy to kill. You shoot a soldier not a man. You aim to destroy a tank not it’s occupants. The death of the man is a consequence.

The Unites States isn’t fighting for land, the most common of all disputes, particularly in European history. The US is fighting for an ideal and a way of life. We want the world to live terror free and Democratic. The enemy doesn’t. We are also trying to hobble the terrorists and kill as many of them as possible. They would prefer we didn’t and have enlisted fellow travellers and the ever present useful idiots as allies. The weak resent this. The opinion of the enemy is of no concern.

First world nations don’t fight each other anymore because they are run by reasonable and pragmatic men. Much of the ME is not run by reasonable and prgmatic men and they also subscribe to an idealogy that breeds fanaticism and gives moral authority to kill those who don’t believe in the same God. Bad combination.

The world is slowing waking up to the seriousness of the situation. This spells bad news for the ME. The problems will be dealt with and the West is growing weary of the threat and is beginning to realize that peace with many of these countries is quite hopeless. The US has the might to deal with it. Others don’t. In the end the US will prevail, the level of pain that causes the ME is really up to them.

Good post, Hedo.

I would add that the “dehumanization” angle is more of a “pop theory” than anything quite reliable as real criticism. After all, war is full of hard, difficult choices, and “total war” advocates believe that the trade-off of a harsher war actually saves lives in the long run.

By any measure, isn’t the desire to fight more ruthlessly now to save more lives later the very opposite of “dehumanization”, whatever that trendy term means?

From the looks of “dehumanization theory” - which flirts with false conciousness conspiracies of radical politics (“the media dehumanizes people so as to get people on board with the war”, etc.) - it is another venture down the road of “feel-good” policy that does little to actually prevent harm from being done. War is awful and hellish - trying to “humanize” it according to this theory will only make wars drag on, for one simple reason: unless “dehumanization theory” is the lowest common denominator, then someone will always use its precepts to take advantage of their opponent.

Such a hope is mere utopian fantasy - an illusory hope that suddenly your enemy will lay down their arms and experience an epiphany of loving behavior. If war has taught us anything it’s that human nature won’t work like that, so fighting wars like that is a recipe for wasted lives.

Wage war to win and to break the back of your opponent. That doesn’t always mean “carpet bomb” - but it does mean teaching your enemy to fear you and to think twice about raising arms against you in the first place. “Dehumanization theory” is a trip down a familiar, dangerous road - and should be resigned to coffee house and never the war room.

T Bolt

I will agree that the dehumanization aspect, as quoted in the Wikpedia entry reeks of pop culture. As I saud I think it adressed racial and ethnic stereotyping more then anything else.

My opinion is that the theory of fighting wars is often debated among pundits, generals and the general population and much of this takes place in the comfortable vacuum of academia and coffee houses. In the field combat hasn’t changed very much on the gut level. Kill your enemy, quickly and w/o pity. Whether this is done with a rock, sword or M-1a1, the goal is the same. A soldier from the civil war or WW1, could with some training adapt to the modern battlefield. My thoughts on the dehumanization process are the key of the combat soldier to cope with killing his enemy. If he views him as a man then he will hesitate and lose. He must view his enemy as an objective and the means to an end in order to maintain his sanity. This is how it has been for all times, in my opinion. This view must be shared by the civilian population and visited upon the enemy if war is to have an outcome worthy of the sacrafice. The US didn’t start this latest go around, despite what the apologists say. The enemy has no one to blame but themselves. The civilians will suffer for the mistakes of a few…they always do.

I’ve always thought that the military must remain lethal, deadly and feared and when objectives are set the civilians must back off and let them work. Dehumanizing absolutely. Effective yes. Most of the discussion about winning hearts and minds has never worked and to be honest will never work. It goes against human nature. This hasn’t changed in centuries and I see these concepts as merely passing fads.

I think the total war concept will be used in the coming years. Our enemy will require it to be defeated. Our citizens will demand it eventually. You will see as radical change in the world order as the world did after WW2.

When will the US take the gloves off? After the Islamic Radicals detonate a WMD in the US. I don’t think anything else will initiate it and I don’t think the population will settle for anything less when it does. By the way the US could lock the gates and isolate itself right now and it will not stop the activities and agenda of the enemy. It’s fine to understand the enemy but it is foolish to agree with him or accept his advice on how to fight him.

[/quote]

Hedo,

As usual, excellent and insightful post.

Sadly, I agree with you about what is going to happen. If lixy thinks the United States is being harsh now, wait until his pals succeed (may they never) in detonating a WMD in the U.S.

Hedo, I’m watching for the candidate that is going to lock down that southern border. If we don’t, it’s a question of when not if.

JeffR

[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
JeffR, why do you call Orion bota? I guess I missed it’s inception. Just curious.[/quote]

You do not want to know.

It is incredibly lame.

[quote]lixy wrote:

The “debate” as you call it was about the use of statistics, probability and risk assessment to make sound decisions about saving the maximum number of lives. I provided a concrete figure (straight from the DoD) that shows thousands of Americans lost their lives because of the war. Anyone with half a brain, can see that the American populace got absolutely nothing out of the carnage.[/quote]

What is your connection? Al-Qaeda that might otherwise be interested in the US are in Iraq trying to rescue Arabs from the horrors of democracy.

Plus, Americans benefit from the “domino effect” - now rogue nations are on notice that “international process” - abused and manipulated in the past to prevent the West from dealing with barbarians - is no longer the impediment it once was. The calculus of rogue nations has changed now with the show of force in Iraq - and we are all thankful for that, especially as it relates to the long term.

You say “seems” as if you come to this with an open mind and a willingness to weigh the information available. You are neither. Despite the fact that the US fights the most humane war it can - and the evidence suggests that broadly speaking, this is true - nothing would ever change your mind and nothing would make it “seem” like we care about innocent civilians.

As I have said over and over to you - your mind is made up before you evaluate any of the information. You aren’t rational. As such, no one puts much stock in much you say.

More hilarious side-stepping and dodging. We did think they had WMDs - so did your precious “rest of the world”, at least the relevant parts. You have no better defense that to get fussy and say “you didn’t do your homework!” when we have the NIE, UN Resolutions, months of time before military action, and a chance for Saddam to account for all his weapons?

Notice how you don’t even try to deal with the runup to the war, and all of the available information that points to a conclusion that doesn’t agree with your radical ideology?

Stop the nonsense, Lixy - you are like a flailing child in the deep end of the pool.

More hilarity. You offer no reason why - and expect us all to believe you? What, with the credibility you have at this point?

Lixy, a nickel’s worth of free advice - never, ever appeal to common sense. You have proven immune to any application of it, and you sound odd trying to suggest it.

[quote]orion wrote:
BigRagoo wrote:
JeffR, why do you call Orion bota? I guess I missed it’s inception. Just curious.

You do not want to know.

It is incredibly lame.

[/quote]

Well, now that he did say it, I found it somewhat funny. Not because I agree with it, but just because of the absurdity.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Plus, Americans benefit from the “domino effect” - now rogue nations are on notice that “international process” - abused and manipulated in the past to prevent the West from dealing with barbarians - is no longer the impediment it once was. The calculus of rogue nations has changed now with the show of force in Iraq - and we are all thankful for that, especially as it relates to the long term. [/quote]

I think the notice came on a summer of 1945.

Ever since, there has still been constant “show of force” which cost lives all across the globe. The list is way too long to go through…

Of course, there’s a way so that it would “seem” that you care about innocent civilians. Wanna know how? Don’t start unnecessary wars.

You have nothing. The war was illegal, period.

There were suspicions of WMDs, yes. That much I can grant you. But there was no proof. All I ever saw were dubious claims made by Cheney about how Saddam was connected to 9/11 and some Powell’s infamous Powerpoint slides.

You didn’t present a case because you knew you didn’t have one. Flimsy intelligence is not enough to warrant bombing civilians.

You need solid proof to put a guy in the chair. Same goes for self-defense. You can’t get away with killing people because you “thought they were armed and didn’t wanna take a chance”. It doesn’t work that way.

Tell me, do you know any regime suicidal enough to give WMDs to a terrorist group? First, those WMDs might be used against them by the terrorists. Secondly, if the WMDs are used against the US, the supplying country will be turned into a no-man’s land within days. Third reason is that no regime on earth has anything to gain from massively killing American civilians.

Yet, you ignored reason and were subjugated by the “mushroom cloud” scenario because of the post-9/11 paranoia.

Terrorists stealing the WMDs would be a totally different story.

[quote]lixy wrote:

I think the notice came on a summer of 1945.

Ever since, there has still been constant “show of force” which cost lives all across the globe. The list is way too long to go through…[/quote]

sniff

You are a radical pacifist who believes that everything the West does is in the name of imperialism - there is no such thing in your fevered brain that is a “necessary” war, so a discussion on the merits of it is worthless.

More mindless one-liners from Lixy. How was it illegal? Surely you can produce a UN Resolution proclaiming the war was “against the law”? I look forward to you producing that, along with all the relevant indictments.

In matters of war and peace, with incomplete intelligence, the burden isn’t “proof”. National security - and international security - is not a criminal issue in a Western justice system. Stop suggesting it is. It has never been.

That is because you look only where you want. It is clear at this stage of the game that you deliberately limit information you rely on to that narrow class of information that fits in with the conclusion you want.

Sorry - us “Western rationalists” don’t operate like that.

Flimsy intelligence, aye? Like the kind that gave us Resolution 1441?

Are you set on “repeat”? Your overmasters did an excellent job of programming you with soundbytes.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong - there is no analogy to the criminal justice system. Perhaps you hope issues of war operated that way, but they don’t, so stop embarrassing yourself with this worthless analogy.

The “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard is not what we deal with international security - no matter how much you want it to be so.

Oh, sure. In the mad rush to power, I don’t doubt rogue regimes would arm terror groups. They have in the past - has history taught you nothing? Wait - don’t answer that.

Wait - did you really just write that???

Lixy, you are perhaps the least reasonable poster here, as has been described to you over and over. You completely ignore relevant, objective information, you avoid arguments that refute your shaky theories, and you indulge in wild conspiracies.

You haven’t been encumbered with “reason” since you started posting here, so don’t try and opt for the high ground now. Moving on.

A legitimate concern in a post-9/11 world - vigilance is not paranoia, and allowing a nefarious underworld broker of all things dangerous (Saddam) was a a risk we were unwilling to tolerate. If that bothers you, no problem - move out of the US.

Oh wait.

I think we may be done on this particular topic, Lixy - you are starting to repeat yourself and you aren’t offering anything new or imaginative.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
You are a radical pacifist who believes that everything the West does is in the name of imperialism - there is no such thing in your fevered brain that is a “necessary” war, so a discussion on the merits of it is worthless. [/quote]

A necessary war is one where you defend yourself against a REAL threat, not a made up one. Real threats emerge when somebody’s military has violated your borders or your friend’s borders. That’s the only case where I won’t demand proof that the war is necessary.

You want to put the burden of the proof on me? I’ll have you recall that I’m not the one supporting acts of aggression against civilians and going “shit happens in wars”. But anyway, Kofi Annan said so himself. The war was illegal from the UN charter point of view.

There is also a quasi-consensus among the world’s foremost experts in the field of international law. There’s no UN resolution that says it was illegal, but it’s understood.

Indictments? I think the International Court of Justice pretty much threw the towel after The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America case of 1986. You clearly have no regard for international law.

If the case was tried in any court, it’ll be the same conclusion.

Bush and Saddam Should Both Stand Trial, Says Nuremberg Prosecutor

The Courts Are Starting To Accept That the War
against Iraq Is A Crime {Guardian October 17, 2006)

Spanish Judge Calls for Architects of Iraq Invasion to Be Tried for War Crimes (March 27, 2007)

Heck, even the defunct pope considered Bush a war criminal for invading Iraq.

What war? What peace? What’s the matter with you?

The burden is always “proof” when you take lives. Stop making stuff up!

I only presented the most patently blatant lies. The unequivocal cases that you can’t argue against. Doesn’t mean I didn’t look into the other aspects.

Are you trying to argue that it was sound intelligence? If so, you could use some yourself.

Resolution 1441 didn’t say “bomb the hell out of Iraq”, now did it?

[quote]Wrong, wrong, and wrong - there is no analogy to the criminal justice system. Perhaps you hope issues of war operated that way, but they don’t, so stop embarrassing yourself with this worthless analogy.

The “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard is not what we deal with international security - no matter how much you want it to be so.[/quote]

I can see that “fuck 'em, we do what we feel like” standard is the only one you know.

Iraq was a war of aggression by international law.

Arm? Yeah sure. You’re pretty famous in Central and Southern America for arming terror groups, but you’d never dream of giving them WMDs now would you?

Vigilance my ass. You’ve created a terrorist haven in Iraq and are taking border patrol troops to ship to Iraq. You have one twisted definition of vigilance. Hey, let’s poke our eyes out to avoid glaucoma

Invading Iraq didn’t make anybody any safer. It made the whole world more vulnerable.

[quote]lixy wrote:

A necessary war is one where you defend yourself against a REAL threat, not a made up one. Real threats emerge when somebody’s military has violated your borders or your friend’s borders. That’s the only case where I won’t demand proof that the war is necessary.[/quote]

No one made up the threat - I have the paper trail to show it. You conveniently ignore that the NIE and the UNSC stated that Iraq was a threat. You refuse to acknowledge rational information - not my problem to fix.

By the way, you’d do a lot better if you instead supplemented your claims with rational evidence rather than hoping that CAPITALIZING LETTERS will show sufficient logical strength.

You made a claim - the burden is on you to prove the claim you made.

Kofi Annan doesn’t have the authority to pronounce a binding statement. If the war was illegal, and the rest of the world was against us, then it should be easy to find an accusatory instrument - say, a Resolution naming the war illegal.

You can’t find it, because it doesn’t exist. The overriding point is that you don’t understand international law like you think you do - since permanent UNSC members get to veto Resolutions, all this talk of “legality” is misguided, and without an overarching judicial system in place, you have zilch.

Short answer: wars are illegal when the UNSC say they are and do something about it by responding with force. That is the system in place you clearly don’t understand - you would do well to understand international law as it exists, not as you want it to be.

A “quasi-consensus”? If it falls short of a consensus, it is no consensus at all. And it isn’t “understood” to be that way - you just cherrypick opinions you happen to like and say “it’s understood”.

Let that be a lesson that “international law” as you want it to exist does not exist.

[quote]Bush and Saddam Should Both Stand Trial, Says Nuremberg Prosecutor

The Courts Are Starting To Accept That the War
against Iraq Is A Crime {Guardian October 17, 2006)

Spanish Judge Calls for Architects of Iraq Invasion to Be Tried for War Crimes (March 27, 2007)

Heck, even the defunct pope considered Bush a war criminal for invading Iraq. [/quote]

Your “proof” of illegality is some various opinions from individuals? Lixy, spent much time with “international law” - or are you just making it up as you go along?

[quote]What war? What peace? What’s the matter with you?

The burden is always “proof” when you take lives. Stop making stuff up![/quote]

Now comes Lixy sounding like a child throwing a tantrum (“Stop making stuff up!”).

The burden is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” - the burden is a rational analysis of the available intelligence and a risk assessment. Your level of “proof” is a fiction.

So, in my best childlike, juvenile voice - “stop making stuff up!!”

Can’t argue against? Lixy, there isn’t an angle you have played that someone hasn’t batted down in short order - don’t overestimate yourself. You know it as well as others - you overrely on conclusory statements and ignore information that hurts you.

And you don’t look into the other aspects - your devotion to conspiracy theories is proof you don’t.

Yawn - it was the best intelligence available - and included other countries - and Saddam confirmed our concerns by expressly acting as though he had WMDs. You said you were 27 years old, right? Sound intelligance, indeed.

Straw man - I never suggested it did. Resolution 1441 neither authorized force nor did it prohibit it.

Now look at Lixy - understandably defensive after having his “reasonable doubt” standard flushed down the toilet, he opts for histrionics.

You should learn, Lixy - the world and the nations within it do not operate by criminal justice standards when dealing with one another. Nations always look out for their interests and values, and there is no “innocent until proven guilty” in war and peace.

You have proven yourself completely misunderstood in “international law” - but the war certainly was aggressive, if not a war of “aggression” per your meaning. Preventive, too.

Nice job, Lixy - you just proved yourself wrong. I said nations most certainly have a history of arming guerilla outfits. Now you are trying to change the subject and your stance - you originally said a nation would never do such a thing…now you just gave evidence nations do?

You are falling apart, Lixy.

You know what makes the world more vulnerable? Naive little radicals who actually give philosophy cover to your barbarian brethren.

This is truly the end on this topic. Bye, Lixy.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
No one made up the threat - I have the paper trail to show it. You conveniently ignore that the NIE and the UNSC stated that Iraq was a threat. You refuse to acknowledge rational information - not my problem to fix. [/quote]

By your definition, any country with as much as a rocket would be considered a threat. Iraq was in the gutter after a draining two decades of wars (the kind with millions of victims) and embargo.

The best he could have done would not have put as much as a dent in any country. Let alone in your mighty war machine.

Here’s what doesn’t add up in your claim that he was a threat so serious that military action was necessary. Say you listened to the world and went with diplomacy to fix the problem, there are two cases: Your bogus intelligence is thoroughly scrutinized and crumbles, or he shoots a few rockets (since he’s a threat) at Iran/Kuwait/Israel/… at which point, you get to bomb him to oblivion with not a peep of protest. Everybody wins.

IMO, Bush/Cheney knew full well that there were no chances of Iraq having WMDs. They rushed into the war because there was a small window of opportunity. If they didn’t act quickly, the scam would have been uncovered.

I capitalize to accentuate some words. I have to say that it’s out of laziness, because the bold and italic tags aren’t standard compliant on this site. It takes me less time to hit the Caps key than to have recall and reach the square brackets.

If it bugs you that much, I’ll work on it…

Damn right I made the claim. But the burden of proof is still gonna be on you to justify the carnage.

No, but he’s still at the heart of the matter. Plus, his famous pro-American bias makes his statement even more powerful.

[quote]If the war was illegal, and the rest of the world was against us, then it should be easy to find an accusatory instrument - say, a Resolution naming the war illegal.

You can’t find it, because it doesn’t exist. The overriding point is that you don’t understand international law like you think you do - since permanent UNSC members get to veto Resolutions, all this talk of “legality” is misguided, and without an overarching judicial system in place, you have zilch.

Short answer: wars are illegal when the UNSC say they are and do something about it by responding with force. That is the system in place you clearly don’t understand - you would do well to understand international law as it exists, not as you want it to be. [/quote]

Respond with force? Interesting delusion. Do you think anyone can use force against you and walk away with his limbs still attached Don’t kid yourself. The UN have done more than their share of shouting about your illegal actions, but never will any force be employed. There’s never been a time pre-president Bush when international law kept the world in order. The US has always done what it thought was right - which often involved killing and maiming innocents in the name of some fanciful fad. Yesterday, it was called war on Communism. Today it’s war on terror. Yet, we have still to see any connection between pre-2003 Iraq and the terrorists.

In short, a war is illegal until proof of the contrary. Not the other way around.

Depends on the population sample. If we’re talking about millions of people it’s safe to call consensus at 90-99%.

You mean to say that the bully doesn’t play by the rules of the civilized world? Or is it that the richest or strongest is above the law?

Those folks are authorities in their respective fields.

This is not gonna be the end of it. Sooner or later, judges are gonna grow some balls and try the lot of criminals.

Hence the pacifist tag.

But look more carefully and then you realize that you didn’t convince as much as 1% of the world’s population. Are they all teh pacifists that I am and require a “beyond a reasonable doubt” kinda case? Nope. They see it for the lie that was.

Why didn’t you try to get better intelligence?

Of course it didn’t prohibit it. You wrote it yourselves.

That wraps it up pretty nicely. If you don’t think that “innocent until proven guilty” applies, then there’s nothing more to discuss.

It actually explains a lot.

It sure was preventive. You never know, the Iraqi could have prayed really hard and they would have gotten a giant death ray from Santa.

Wake up. There was nothing to prevent in the first place.

You’re either replying without reading or are playing dumb.

Arming a “terror” group is absolutely not the same thing as giving them WMDs. When you hand out pistols, you know that you still have the upper hand in case it gets out of control. When you hand out WMDs, well…you don’t. Never gonna happen.

Must you always…? Ah, I guess it helps when you run out of arguments.

[quote]orion wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

So?

Other people have pretty good chances of dying of cancer, in a car accident, on a crumbling bridge from the sixties.

When it comes to 300 million people you are all a statistic and 500 billion (so far) could have been much better spent.

[/quote]

Dickless, you’re missing my point. If we can prevent a damn attack, I want it fucking prevented, because it’s coming right at where I live, and that’s nearly garuanteed.

The terrorists are not going to hit West Texas, and they’re not going to hit Alabama, and they’re not going to hit Maine. They’re going to hit NYC again, and because of my propensity to be there, I DON’T WANT IT HIT.

It’s easy to pull your existentialist bullshit of, “We could all die at any time.” Easy because it ain’t you, it ain’t your family, it ain’t your girlfriend.

Sorry man, I like you, but I have to say you’re full of shit a good part of time.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s easy to pull your existentialist bullshit of, “We could all die at any time.” Easy because it ain’t you, it ain’t your family, it ain’t your girlfriend.
[/quote]

If it were them that had been hit - the tune they’re a whistlin’ would sound distinctly different.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

So?

Other people have pretty good chances of dying of cancer, in a car accident, on a crumbling bridge from the sixties.

When it comes to 300 million people you are all a statistic and 500 billion (so far) could have been much better spent.

Dickless, you’re missing my point. If we can prevent a damn attack, I want it fucking prevented, because it’s coming right at where I live, and that’s nearly garuanteed.

The terrorists are not going to hit West Texas, and they’re not going to hit Alabama, and they’re not going to hit Maine. They’re going to hit NYC again, and because of my propensity to be there, I DON’T WANT IT HIT.

It’s easy to pull your existentialist bullshit of, “We could all die at any time.” Easy because it ain’t you, it ain’t your family, it ain’t your girlfriend.

Sorry man, I like you, but I have to say you’re full of shit a good part of time.[/quote]

So basically you want your decision to live in NY subsidized?

If it is so bad there, move.

The broader issue is though that there is a price tag on everything. No matter how many politicians claim that “we must do everything to prevent another 9-11”, it is nonsense.

We live in a world with scarce resources and billions of problems and 500 billion is a lot of money to prevent the equivalent of 1/10 of all yearly car crashes, 1/5 of all homicides, 1/100 of all cancer patients.

How much money does the tax payer have to pay, neglecting other concerns, so that you will feel reasonably safe.

Give me a number.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s easy to pull your existentialist bullshit of, “We could all die at any time.” Easy because it ain’t you, it ain’t your family, it ain’t your girlfriend.

If it were them that had been hit - the tune they’re a whistlin’ would sound distinctly different.

[/quote]

But we weren`t.

We are safer than you and it costs us a fraction of what you spend.