Onward ? Into Waziristan!

Getting past the histrionics…

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[/quote]
According to Wikipedia:

Total war is a military conflict in which nations mobilize all available resources in order to destroy another nation’s ability to engage in war.

It might surprise you that I’m not against this definition of total war, as long as it doesn’t involve purposely targeting civilians… though civilians working in military supporting industries are obviously in harms way.

However, the problem is made more complex since we are not talking about a conflict between nations.

Now, there is a theory, that I don’t think I can subscribe to, that all wars can be avoided. However, I’m happy to disagree with aspects of the Wikipedia article, especially if it thinks that all dehumanization can never be justified.

My own view is that it, just like so many other emotional handles, can be grabbed and misused quite easily. However, people that are aware of it and see it happening can much more easily resist having this lever pulled.

Please continue with your “super simple” diatribes…

[quote]vroom wrote:

Getting past the histrionics…[/quote]

histrionics: 1 : theatrical performances
2 : deliberate display of emotion for effect

Vroom, my post was terse and to the point - the very opposite of “histrionic”.

But, in the spirit of pointing out that you can’t resist ruining threads, why even bother mention “histrionics”? Is it necessary to your point? Even when it is incorrect on its face?

It’s on the record for every reader to see.

It neither surprises me nor nonplusses me.

Complicates, yes - but doesn’t make the approach irrelevant. Terrorists don’t work in a vaccuum - so the ideas of total war - eliminating the terrorists’ ability to wage war - remains valid.

[quote]Now, there is a theory, that I don’t think I can subscribe to, that all wars can be avoided. However, I’m happy to disagree with aspects of the Wikipedia article, especially if it thinks that all dehumanization can never be justified.

My own view is that it, just like so many other emotional handles, can be grabbed and misused quite easily. However, people that are aware of it and see it happening can much more easily resist having this lever pulled.[/quote]

But this is simply a rehash of what everyone already knows - there is nothing novel in pointing out that such an approach can be misused.

Right, Vroom - stating an opinion that differs from yours, even though the comments were never even directed to you, must be a “diatribe”.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
histrionics: 1 : theatrical performances
2 : deliberate display of emotion for effect

Vroom, my post was terse and to the point - the very opposite of “histrionic”.
[/quote]

Histrionics or diatribes… take your pick:
[i]–
Uh, you like Wikipedia and you know how to Google - knock yourself out.

Here, I’ll do the heavy lifting for you:

Vroom, there is no mystery here - I wanted Hedo’s comments, not yours. My discussion was an invitation to Hedo - I don’t owe you a conversation.

You said I mischaracterized your viewpoint - I merely replied that I was not responding to what you wrote at all, so I couldn’t have been mischaracterizing your viewpoint.

Got it?

That is why I - wait for it - solicited his comments on what I had said.

That was the jist of my original comments, again, directed at Hedo. If you have no interest in addressing those points, super simple solution - don’t reply to my post.
–[/i]
Maybe you’d like to choose a different descriptor? I’m open for another explanation, but since we are analyzing posts, yours had more little jibes than content. Probably not the time to play holier than thou.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:
Taking the terrorists at their word would be another way of realizing that the London and Madrid attacks were retaliation for their participation in Iraq. They made that point very clear in their statements.

But once again - just because terrorists claim to be justified doesn’t mean we believe them. So what if they say “do this, and we will attack you”? Back to a conversation we had before - you are complicit in blackmail. Should every terrorist demand be honored in order to keep them from attacking us? [/quote]

That’s only the weakest piece of the puzzle that lead me to speculate those bombings would have been a lot less likely if they didn’t invade Iraq.

Were they lying? Maybe. Fact remain that the countries who have disapproved of the war were not attacked.

I think that by now, a lot of Americans - including high officials - acknowledge that it was a mistake to invade Iraq. And that’s the point I wanted to make.

[quote]And yet these horrors occur in all sorts of places in the Muslim world - where is your outrage at this? Where are the never-ending posts about it?

You are awfully choosy about your outrage - I suspect that is because you are an ideological prisoner.[/quote]

Did I ever not voice my outrage at it? I do so every time I am confronted with an Islamist. I then turn into a fervent defender of the United States (not its foreign policy).

These horrors you speak of have had a steep increase ever since you decided to use the military to attack Iraq in a fight on a decentralized network of cells that’s got nothing to do with Iraq in the first place. That’s gonna go in history as one of the most idiotic things the American people have done.

I am a threat. You too are a threat. Doesn’t make it right to invade your home and kill your kids, now does it?

There isn’t a single person or country that isn’t a potential threat.

Iraq wasn’t a threat to you and that’s that. The best they could have done was to scratch your boats that come too near their coasts and shoot at your planes that violate their airspace. Other than that, they were harmless to you.

And that approach would be…? Overthrow the only secular regime of the region and send billions of dollars of weapons to the country where all the money and 15 out of the 19 hijackers for 9/11 originated from?

Doesn’t compute.

You have no obligations alright. But a simple risk-assessment would show that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are orders of magnitude higher in the “terror elements” demography, finance, and mass-destruction weaponry. Your priorities were completely fucked up so its either that you a dumb clod and his totally clueless administration did the worst possible choice imaginable, or - and that’s my personal pick - the reasons for the war were concealed behind an elaborate lie, and one needs to look into the PNAC and other related projects to find out the real reasons.

Evidently, the American people (I’m talking mass not corporate elite) have not benefited one iota from the chaos in Iraq. That is, unless you thought Saddam would have had the balls to come after the world’s sole superpower and de facto ruler of the know universe, armed with nothing but BB guns and pocket knifes. Yes, I dramatize, but you know damn well that what I’m saying is true.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Were they lying? Maybe. Fact remain that the countries who have disapproved of the war were not attacked.[/quote]

Right - which tells us valuable information about terrorist elements. They want to try to scare Western governments into getting their way. At least that much is transparent, so we can combat that effectively.

You didn’t make that point.

That seems an odd phrase, since Iraq has become so important to al-Qaeda. Strange - Islamists are desperate to make sure Iraq doesn’t develop into a Western-ish democracy. Maybe Iraq means more than you think it does.

[quote]I am a threat. You too are a threat. Doesn’t make it right to invade your home and kill your kids, now does it?

There isn’t a single person or country that isn’t a potential threat.

Iraq wasn’t a threat to you and that’s that. The best they could have done was to scratch your boats that come too near their coasts and shoot at your planes that violate their airspace. Other than that, they were harmless to you.[/quote]

You keep playing childish games. Clearly the international community thought Iraq a threat - you’ve seen the information. Moreover, you keep suggesting that the US and the rest of the world made it out that Iraq was a direct military threat to the US. It is a straw man - no one has ever worried about Iraq as launching missiles against Manhattan. The threat has always been that Saddam would traffic in arms and provide a clearinghouse for WMDs. Stop trying to peddle the idea that “Iraq wasn’t going to attack you” - that was never the argument, so quit trying to pass off yet another deception.

[quote]And that approach would be…? Overthrow the only secular regime of the region and send billions of dollars of weapons to the country where all the money and 15 out of the 19 hijackers for 9/11 originated from?

Doesn’t compute.[/quote]

You really are immune to reason. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia was different than Iraq - and, repeat after me, there is no reason to treat unlike situations alike just for the sake of it.

As long as there was a rational reason to do something about Iraq - which there was, because remember whether it was “rational” or not is not dependent on you agreeing with it - we had no obligation to conduct the same activities in Saudi Arabia. Different situation, different plan.

You wouldn’t know a risk-assessment if you tripped over it in the street. In order to do a risk-assessment, you have to be willing and able to objectively quantify information and make cost-benefit decisions based on the information.

Lixy, you have proven completely incapable of divorcing yourself from your ideological script long enough to understand a “risk-assessment”, so certainly don’t try to act as though you can talk about one here. You are patently irrational, and any pronouncements you try and make in this area are worthy of ridicule.

That said, any person with even a cursory knowledge understands that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia require very different approaches (as in, managing Musharaff) than Iraq.

You think that we should have done something in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia? No problem - just don’t argue that Iraq didn’t have a rational basis.

This is meaningless ad hominem and standard Bush hatred - and it instantly brands you unserious to the task.

As an alternative to just being an anti-Bush squealer, you opt for a conspiracy theory, despite all of the information pointing you away from such a conclusion.

Debating you is always interesting, Lixy - in record time, you always wind up laying out how silly your approach is.

Once again, enough with the dishonesty. The worry of Iraq was never that Saddam would arrive in gunboats on the East Coast - it was what he would do in the dark world of WMDs trafficking. This should be obvious - but obvious has always been a problem for you.

More on al-Qaeda in Iraq:

[i]Fighting the “Real” Fight
Foolish myths about al-Qaida in Mesopotamia.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Aug. 13, 2007, at 12:02 PM ET

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, late leader of al-Qaida in Iraq
Over the past few months, I have been debating Roman Catholics who differ from their Eastern Orthodox brethren on the nature of the Trinity, Protestants who are willing to quarrel bitterly with one another about election and predestination, with Jews who cannot concur about a covenant with God, and with Muslims who harbor bitter disagreements over the discrepant interpretations of the Quran. Arcane as these disputes may seem, and much as I relish seeing the faithful fight among themselves, the believers are models of lucidity when compared to the hair-splitting secularists who cannot accept that al-Qaida in Mesopotamia is a branch of al-Qaida itself.

Objections to this self-evident fact take one of two forms. It is argued, first, that there was no such organization before the coalition intervention in Iraq. It is argued, second, that the character of the gang itself is somewhat autonomous from, and even independent of, the original group proclaimed by Osama Bin Laden. These objections sometimes, but not always, amount to the suggestion that the “real” fight against al-Qaida is, or should be, not in Iraq but in Afghanistan. (I say “not always,” because many of those who argue the difference are openly hostile to the presence of NATO forces in Afghanistan as well as to the presence of coalition soldiers in Iraq.)

The facts as we have them are not at all friendly to this view of the situation, whether it be the “hard” view that al-Qaida terrorism is a “resistance” to Western imperialism or the “soft” view that we have only created the monster in Iraq by intervening there.

The founder of al-Qaida in Mesopotamia was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who we can now gratefully describe as “the late.” The first thing to notice about him is that he was in Iraq before we were. The second thing to notice is that he fled to Iraq only because he, and many others like him, had been driven out of Afghanistan. Thus, by the logic of those who say that Afghanistan is the “real” war, he would have been better left as he was. Without the overthrow of the Taliban, he and his collaborators would not have moved to take advantage of the next failed/rogue state. I hope you can spot the simple error of reasoning that is involved in this belief. It also involves the defeatist suggestion�??which was very salient in the opposition to the intervention in Afghanistan�??that it’s pointless to try to crush such people because “others will spring up in their place.” Those who take this view should have the courage to stand by it and not invent a straw-man argument.

As it happens, we also know that Zarqawi�??who probably considered himself a rival to Bin Laden as well as an ally�??wrote from Iraq to Bin Laden and to his henchman Ayman al-Zawahiri and asked for the local “franchise” to call himself the leader of AQM. This dubious honor he was duly awarded. We further know that he authored a plan for the wrecking of the new Iraq: a simple strategy to incite civil murder between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. The incredible evil of this proposal, which involved the blowing up of holy places and the assassination of pilgrims, was endorsed from whatever filthy cave these deliberations are conducted in. As a matter of fact, we even know that Zawahiri and his boss once or twice counseled Zarqawi to hold it down a bit, especially on the video-butchery and the excessive zeal in the murder of Shiites. Thus, if there is any distinction to be made between the apple and the tree, it would involve saying that AQM is, if anything, even more virulent and sadistic and nihilistic than its parent body.

And this very observation leads to a second one, which has been well-reported and observed by journalists who are highly skeptical about the invasion. In provinces like Anbar, and in areas of Baghdad, even Sunni militants have turned away in disgust and fear from the AQM forces. It’s not difficult to imagine why this is: Try imagining life for a day under the village rule of such depraved and fanatical elements.

To say that the attempt to Talibanize Iraq would not be happening at all if coalition forces were not present is to make two unsafe assumptions and one possibly suicidal one. The first assumption is that the vultures would never have gathered to feast on the decaying cadaver of the Saddamist state, a state that was in a process of implosion well before 2003. All our experience of countries like Somalia and Sudan, and indeed of Afghanistan, argues that such an assumption is idiotic. It is in the absence of international attention that such nightmarish abnormalities flourish. The second assumption is that the harder we fight them, the more such cancers metastasize. This appears to be contradicted by all the experience of Iraq. Fallujah or Baqubah might already have become the centers of an ultra-Taliban ministate, as they at one time threatened to do, whereas now not only have thousands of AQM goons been killed but local opinion appears to have shifted decisively against them and their methods.

The third assumption, deriving from the first two, would be that if coalition forces withdrew, the AQM gangsters would lose their raison d’être and have nothing left to fight for. I think I shall just leave that assumption lying where it belongs: on the damp floor of whatever asylum it is where foolish and wishful opinions find their eventual home.

If I am right about this, an enormous prize is within our reach. We can not only deny the clones of Bin Ladenism a military victory in Iraq, we can also discredit them in the process and in the eyes (and with the help) of a Muslim people who have seen them up close. We can do this, moreover, in a keystone state of the Arab world that guards a chokepoint�??the Gulf�??in the global economy. As with the case of Afghanistan�??where several provinces are currently on a knife-edge between an elected government that at least tries for schools and vaccinations, and the forces of uttermost darkness that seek to negate such things�??the struggle will take all our nerve and all our intelligence. But who can argue that it is not the same battle in both cases, and who dares to say that it is not worth fighting?[/i]

[quote]rainjack wrote:

It has to happen to you before it really matters? I lost a shit pile of money in a market that was very much affected by 9/11.
[/quote]

Well, see, that’s where timing is of the essence. On September 12th, I heavily bought gold, silver and mining stocks, General Dynamics and oil stocks. It has worked out nicely. If I had shorted the airlines beforehand it would have worked out even better.

Did they ever find out who bought all those airline put options shortly before the attack?

[quote]orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.[/quote]

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

[quote]orion wrote:

That is all you respond to?

I`d have no problem with the US leaving Europe, you never had troops or installations in Austria anyway.

[/quote]

bota,

You need to leave.

The U.S. ran your country for TEN YEARS: 1945-1955.

It’s estimated that 2000 of your countrymen have American fathers.

http://www.image-at.com/salzburg/0005.shtml

Not to mention holding the AVALANCHE that was the soviet union in check from 1945 to 1989.

Your new motto should be: Bicycle, read, sleep.

Repeat.

JeffR

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC. [/quote]

Irish,

This has been my point for quite some time. It’s easy to say so and so is overreacting if you aren’t in the crosshairs.

Like fog, gray dissipates quickly when exposed to heat.

JeffR

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC. [/quote]

So?

Other people have pretty good chances of dying of cancer, in a car accident, on a crumbling bridge from the sixties.

When it comes to 300 million people you are all a statistic and 500 billion (so far) could have been much better spent.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

Irish,

This has been my point for quite some time. It’s easy to say so and so is overreacting if you aren’t in the crosshairs.

Like fog, gray dissipates quickly when exposed to heat.

JeffR
[/quote]

No, nuanced reasoning is easily silenced by borderline retarded one liners.

That does not mean that he who yells the loudest and has the shortest message is right.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:

That is all you respond to?

I`d have no problem with the US leaving Europe, you never had troops or installations in Austria anyway.

bota,

You need to leave.

The U.S. ran your country for TEN YEARS: 1945-1955.

It’s estimated that 2000 of your countrymen have American fathers.

http://www.image-at.com/salzburg/0005.shtml

Not to mention holding the AVALANCHE that was the soviet union in check from 1945 to 1989.

Your new motto should be: Bicycle, read, sleep.

Repeat.

JeffR

[/quote]

We were occupied by four countries not by the US and we ran it ourselves.

Any questions?

[quote]orion wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

So?

Other people have pretty good chances of dying of cancer, in a car accident, on a crumbling bridge from the sixties.

When it comes to 300 million people you are all a statistic and 500 billion (so far) could have been much better spent.

[/quote]

Orion is right. Shit, you have a much higher chance of being raped in NY than getting killed by terrorists. Don’t believe me?

And its not that I am trying to downplay the tragedy of 9/11, but the attitude that comes across from some people about terrorism reminds me of someone saying “shit, my neighbour just won the lottery, time to spend my life savings on tickets.”

Some of you people have no perspective on what a real threat is.

The problem with comparing a terrorist attack to the chances of winning the lottery is that lotteries don’t suddenly start “winning” all over the place as a result of someone having a successful lotter ticket.

The problem with this blind adherence to statistical probabilities is that it treats all events the same - as independent, atomized events. As in, should a terrorist attack occur, it was a one and a million chance (or whatever) and from then on out, it is treated as the same random event based on the probabilities.

We, of course, know that terror is not driven by impersonal forces, but instead by people with an agenda who would love to give us as many “lottery tickets” as they could manage, not just an occasional, impersonal random event. And, of course, a successful terrorist attack begats other terror attacks, because terrorists feed on the successes of their attacks - so this idea that “there is such a low chance of getting hit in a terrorist attack” (silly on its face) is foolish in that succeesful attacks make the chances ever higher.

Preventing that is a priority - and should be. Save statistical probabilities for playing blackjack.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Preventing that is a priority - and should be. Save statistical probabilities for playing blackjack.[/quote]

And that’s the same mindset that makes people make abstraction of the thousands of lives lost in Iraq - 3693 American soldiers as of today. Don’t even get me started on the impact on Iraqis…

And for the last time, Iraq was nowhere near a priority. If preventing the loss of lives was your priority, you wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. Remember? No WMDs.

[quote]lixy wrote:

And that’s the same mindset that makes people make abstraction of the thousands of lives lost in Iraq - 3693 American soldiers as of today. Don’t even get me started on the impact on Iraqis…[/quote]

I am not terribly concerned over you “getting started” on anything - most of what you offer is a generic whine over bad things in war, which does nothing to advance the debate.

Iraq was a priority - go read Resolution 1441. As for WMDs, it was always the threat that they existed. US intelligence said WMDs were unaccounted for, the relevant international community thought they were there. The paper trail is right there, Lixy - why do you ignore it and keep repeating lies?

The fact that WMDs weren’t there is essentially meaningless - Saddam bluffed, we called. In a post-9/11 world, we began a different approach to terror. In Iraq there were terror elements on the ground, an angry and humiliated tyrant itching to get some revenge on the West, and an underworld of unaccounted-for WMDs and the networks to supply them into the hands of enemies. Iraq was an international rogue, already defying UN Resolutions related to its ceasefire and prior agreements.

Now, apply reason.

It is strange - you are like a parrot, trained to say one phrase over and over and over, no matter what the information tells you. You are indeed a prisoner of your ideology and your agenda has never been more transparent.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

And that’s the same mindset that makes people make abstraction of the thousands of lives lost in Iraq - 3693 American soldiers as of today. Don’t even get me started on the impact on Iraqis…

I am not terribly concerned over you “getting started” on anything - most of what you offer is a generic whine over bad things in war, which does nothing to advance the debate.

And for the last time, Iraq was nowhere near a priority. If preventing the loss of lives was your priority, you wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. Remember? No WMDs.

Iraq was a priority - go read Resolution 1441. As for WMDs, it was always the threat that they existed. US intelligence said WMDs were unaccounted for, the relevant international community thought they were there. The paper trail is right there, Lixy - why do you ignore it and keep repeating lies?

The fact that WMDs weren’t there is essentially meaningless - Saddam bluffed, we called. In a post-9/11 world, we began a different approach to terror. In Iraq there were terror elements on the ground, an angry and humiliated tyrant itching to get some revenge on the West, and an underworld of unaccounted-for WMDs and the networks to supply them into the hands of enemies. Iraq was an international rogue, already defying UN Resolutions related to its ceasefire and prior agreements.

Now, apply reason.

It is strange - you are like a parrot, trained to say one phrase over and over and over, no matter what the information tells you. You are indeed a prisoner of your ideology and your agenda has never been more transparent.[/quote]

Why are we re-hashing an argument that is as old as this one?

Lixy is just throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. Never mind the reasoning for entering Iraq has been very well documented. He/she is going to keep repeating the “Bush Lied-People Died” mantra in lieu of any real position.

At least be original, lixy. You are sadly predictable, and equally boring with your anti-american drivel.

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:

That is all you respond to?

I`d have no problem with the US leaving Europe, you never had troops or installations in Austria anyway.

bota,

You need to leave.

The U.S. ran your country for TEN YEARS: 1945-1955.

It’s estimated that 2000 of your countrymen have American fathers.

http://www.image-at.com/salzburg/0005.shtml

Not to mention holding the AVALANCHE that was the soviet union in check from 1945 to 1989.

Your new motto should be: Bicycle, read, sleep.

Repeat.

JeffR

We were occupied by four countries not by the US and we ran it ourselves.

Any questions?

[/quote]

Yes, bota, I have a question for you.

You made a point to say that there weren’t any U.S. troops or installations in Austria.

I showed you that was wrong on both counts.

What point exactly are you trying to make by being aggressively wrong?

Time to grab the Schwinn.

JeffR

[quote]Ren wrote:
orion wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
orion wrote:

Your chances of dying in a terrorist attack are practically zero, there are hundreds of thousands lives that could be saved by the money you throw after fighting terrorism.

Watch yourself buddy. My chances of dying in a terrorist attack were actually pretty fucking good on 9/11, and many people I know got out by the skin of their teeth.

That’s easy to say when you live in Austria or North Dakota. Not so easy when you live next to Port Newark and NYC.

So?

Other people have pretty good chances of dying of cancer, in a car accident, on a crumbling bridge from the sixties.

When it comes to 300 million people you are all a statistic and 500 billion (so far) could have been much better spent.

Orion is right. Shit, you have a much higher chance of being raped in NY than getting killed by terrorists. Don’t believe me?

And its not that I am trying to downplay the tragedy of 9/11, but the attitude that comes across from some people about terrorism reminds me of someone saying “shit, my neighbour just won the lottery, time to spend my life savings on tickets.”

Some of you people have no perspective on what a real threat is.[/quote]

Ren,

I understand where you are coming from. You are from South Africa, one of the most dangerous and violent countries in the world, and because of that atmosphere, you probably have more first hand experience with violence than many of us on here. You are saying that there are many other things that would kill us faster than a terrorist attack. It is the same opinion that I have. I am more worried about getting shot by some crackhead for my wallet while I am going to work than a terrorist blowing up my place of business. I lost family in 9/11 (My cousin was killed in one of Towers), but I am not as worried about terrorist attacks as some. He wouldn’t want me running around scared because it doesn’t do any good. He would want money to go to the right places to beef up security. That is NOT being done right now! Instead, we have a group of people that have used this tragedy to create an atmosphere of permanent fear purely to push their own personal political and economic agendas. The people don’t mean shit to them so long as they get what they want for themselves. If people haven’t figured this out by now, it’s because they don’t want to believe it. The idea of that shatters their rose-colored viewpoint of this country that has been programmed in them since they were kids.

Sorry about the rant. This fear issue pisses me off because I can see it for what it is: a distraction. It is a distraction from the real crimes that are going on right under our noses being committed by those who are suppose to look out for our interests.