Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
702

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
The Church of the First Three Centuries:
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity … derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and prophetic or holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact. The doctrine of the Trinity, as explained by these Fathers, was essentially different from the modern doctrine. This we state as a fact as susceptible of proof as any fact in the history of human opinions. We challenge any one to produce a single writer of any note, during the first three ages, who held this [Trinity] doctrine in the modern sense.”
[/quote]
The early Church dogma of the Holy Trinity was preserved via oral tradition. Just like the Holy Bible says - to stand fast in all the traditions of the Apostles, whether by WORD or their epistle. The challenge to find this dogma in written format is not one which Orthodox Christianity ever needed to meet in the first place. Apostolic succession (Apostolic lineage + Apostolic teaching) proved/proves to be an air tight tradition. : )

Anyways, it’d be fruitful to this discussion if you could post some quotes of ante-Nicene Fathers who rejected the notion of the Holy Trinity as the Orthodox Christian Church preserves it today, some 2000 years after Her inception.

Blah Blah Blah. Post some quotes from the Orthodox Christian Fathers to redeem your stance on the Holy Trinity instead of providing us with the feedback of a heterodox source. I could post 100 passages which completely refute what Buckley has asserted. The proof is in the pudding. Give us the pudding!

703

Once again, I ask for ANY evidence challenging the truth of the Liturgy of Saint James which specifically used the words Undivided Trinity and included specifically the theology of the Eucharist by the 40s BC, and was practiced weekly (and openly at the time) by the Christians in Jerusalem, and ALSO included the primitive precurser to the Nicean Creed.

Take your pick

a) James and the Christians in Jerusalem, and Mark who used only a slight variation in his liturgy were heretics (although I fail to see why they would espouse this dogma even if they were).

b) It is a big cover up by the trinitarian Christians-please provide evidence.

704

Seriously, did Jesus ever say he was divine? Did he ever say he and God were one and the same?

705

[quote]doogie wrote:
Seriously, did Jesus ever say he was divine? Did he ever say he and God were one and the same?[/quote]

John 20: 27-29
he said to Thomas, “Put your fingers here and look at my hands; then reath out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe!”
Thomas answered him “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who have not seen me and yet believe.”

Other than that, the Greek word which we translate in many places in the bible as Son of God, is specifically formulated to mean the divine Son of God.

706

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
doogie wrote:
Seriously, did Jesus ever say he was divine? Did he ever say he and God were one and the same?

John 20: 27-29
he said to Thomas, “Put your fingers here and look at my hands; then reath out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe!”
Thomas answered him “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who have not seen me and yet believe.”

Other than that, the Greek word which we translate in many places in the bible as Son of God, is specifically formulated to mean the divine Son of God.
[/quote]

So Jesus never directly said it, he just let Thomas make the assumption?

707

[quote]doogie wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
doogie wrote:
Seriously, did Jesus ever say he was divine? Did he ever say he and God were one and the same?

John 20: 27-29
he said to Thomas, “Put your fingers here and look at my hands; then reath out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe!”
Thomas answered him “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who have not seen me and yet believe.”

Other than that, the Greek word which we translate in many places in the bible as Son of God, is specifically formulated to mean the divine Son of God.

So Jesus never directly said it, he just let Thomas make the assumption?
[/quote]

Jesus CLEARLY IMPLIED that Thomas was correct in the so-called “assumption.” For He replied: “Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing, and believing” (John 20:29, LITV).

Yet here is a DIRECT EXPLICIT quote from Jesus Christ saying that He is God (i.e., “I AM”):

“Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!”(John 8:56-58, LITV)

Compare the above with Exodus 3:11-14:

“And Moses said to God, Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring out the sons of Israel from Egypt? And He said, I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you that I have sent you, when you bring out the people from Egypt: You shall serve God on this mountain. And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall come to the sons of Israel and say to them, the God of your fathers has sent me to you; and they will say to me, What is His name? What shall I say to them? And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.”

More verses proving that Jesus Christ is God:

“So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).

“And the birth of Jesus Christ was this way (for His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph) before the coming together of them, she was found having babe in womb by the Holy Spirit. But her husband to be, Joseph, being just, and not willing to make her a public example, he purposed to put her away secretly. And as he was thinking about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord was seen by him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that in her is generated by the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a son, and they will call His name Emmanuel” (which translated is, God with us). And being aroused from sleep, Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took his wife, and did not know her until she bore her son, the First-born. And he called His name Jesus” (Mathew 1:18-25).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth” (John 1:1, 14).

“I and the Father are One! Then again the Jews took up stones, that they might stone Him. Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God” (John 10:30-33).

“Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased through His own blood” (Acts 20:28).

Notice that it says that GOD purchased the assembly of God with His own blood. But how can that be? Answer: Jesus Christ is one person, with two distinct natures (i.e., really and truly God as well as really and truly man); and therefore whatever can be predicated of either nature may be predicated of the person.

“Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God, which He promised before through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son who came of the seed of David according to flesh, who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 1:1-4).

“And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16).

“looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

"In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets; in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages; who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, He has inherited a name more excellent than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me. And again, when He brought the First-born into the world, He said, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” And as to the angels, He said, “Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;” but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom; You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands. They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment, and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.” But to which of the angels did He ever say, “Sit at My right hand until I place Your enemies as a footstool of Your feet?” (Hebrews 1:1-13).

“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death” (Revelation 1:17-18).

708

[quote]Prester John wrote:
Mertdawg:

Love the Archangel Michael avatar.

You have good taste!

Christ is Risen!

[/quote]

Indeed he is Risen!

You may notice that he has mastered the “pinky censor hold” technique.

709

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death” (Revelation 1:17-18).
[/quote]

Thanks for this complete answer-I’ll save it as a file for future reference.

As a side note, the Greek word for Hell here specifically means the place of the dead (whereas John used the Lake of Fire for the place of punishment). Again, this is a difference of opinion we have about what is meant by atonement.

710

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
extol7extol wrote:
“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death” (Revelation 1:17-18).

Thanks for this complete answer-I’ll save it as a file for future reference.

[/quote]

Isn’t Revelations just a big dream sequence?

So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?

711

[quote]doogie wrote:
So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?
[/quote]
Resurrection of Lazarus
St. John 11:1
Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. Therefore, the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.” When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."

St. John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live."

St. John 11:39
Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.” Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe you would see the glory of God?"

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ explains to Martha that her brother’s death was not prevented so that He could exhibit His power in resurrecting Lazarus. Later on we read that Jesus Christ even resurrects Himself. This power is due to God alone.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ promises eternal salvation to all those who believe in Him. Only God can make such a promise.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ reminds Martha that if she believes in Him, she’d witness the glory of God. With this miracle, Jesus Christ is glorified not merely as a tool of God, but God Himself.

712

[quote]doogie wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
extol7extol wrote:
“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death” (Revelation 1:17-18).

Thanks for this complete answer-I’ll save it as a file for future reference.

Isn’t Revelations just a big dream sequence?

So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?
[/quote]

Perhaps. Keep in mind that I AM doesn’t just mean Yahweh, it is the actual word Yahweh. Also, whenever Christ calls himself the “son of man” or “son of God” he uses a word that precisely means the “divine son of God”. Also, in light of the Thomas sequence don’t forget that he had just risen from the dead!

713

[quote]doogie wrote:
So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?
[/quote]
There’s sufficient scripture within the Bible that conveys the divinity of the Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
[i]Special thanks to extol7extol for providing support within written tradition.[/i]

Nonetheless, Orthodox Christians do NOT solely rely upon written tradition to convey the fullness of Truth; we also have oral tradition passed on from generation to generation via Apostolic succession (Apostolic teaching + Apostolic lineage) which, since 33 AD, has unwaveringly professed that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate.

714

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
The Church of the First Three Centuries:
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity … derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and prophetic or holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact. The doctrine of the Trinity, as explained by these Fathers, was essentially different from the modern doctrine. This we state as a fact as susceptible of proof as any fact in the history of human opinions. We challenge any one to produce a single writer of any note, during the first three ages, who held this [Trinity] doctrine in the modern sense.”

The early Church dogma of the Holy Trinity was preserved via oral tradition. Just like the Holy Bible says - to stand fast in all the traditions of the Apostles, whether by WORD or their epistle. The challenge to find this dogma in written format is not one which Orthodox Christianity ever needed to meet in the first place. Apostolic succession (Apostolic lineage + Apostolic teaching) proved/proves to be an air tight tradition. : )

Anyways, it’d be fruitful to this discussion if you could post some quotes of ante-Nicene Fathers who rejected the notion of the Holy Trinity as the Orthodox Christian Church preserves it today, some 2000 years after Her inception.

Second Century Orthodoxy, by J.A. Buckley:

"Up until the end of the second century at least, the universal Church remained united in one basic sense; they all accepted the supremacy of the Father. They all regarded God the Father Almighty as alone supreme, immutable, ineffable and without beginning…

“With the passing of those second century writers and leaders, the Church found itself … slipping slowly but inexorably toward that point … where at the Council of Nicaea the culmination of all this piece-meal eroding of the original faith was reached. There, a small volatile minority, foisted its heresy upon an acquiescent majority, and with the political authorities behind it, coerced, cajoled and intimidated those who strove to maintain the pristine purity of their faith untarnished.”

The Trinity doctrine has deeply sordid roots.

Blah Blah Blah. Post some quotes from the Orthodox Christian Fathers to redeem your stance on the Holy Trinity instead of providing us with the feedback of a heterodox source. I could post 100 passages which completely refute what Buckley has asserted. The proof is in the pudding. Give us the pudding![/quote]

This is exactly the reason why I knew better than to bother quoting anyone or anything other than the bible with you because you won’t accept anything unless it says what you want it to say. You actually even did it with a scripture also but that’s much easier to focus on and discuss than a bunch of quotes from here and there.

715

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
doogie wrote:
So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?

There’s sufficient scripture within the Bible that conveys the divinity of the Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
[i]Special thanks to extol7extol for providing support within written tradition.[/i]

Nonetheless, Orthodox Christians do NOT solely rely upon written tradition to convey the fullness of Truth; we also have oral tradition passed on from generation to generation via Apostolic succession (Apostolic teaching + Apostolic lineage) which, since 33 AD, has unwaveringly professed that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate.[/quote]

That’s all well and good, but I’m asking about Jesus himself saying he was God. Do your oral traditions include quoting Jesus as saying he was God?

716

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Once again, I ask for ANY evidence challenging the truth of the Liturgy of Saint James which specifically used the words Undivided Trinity and included specifically the theology of the Eucharist by the 40s BC, and was practiced weekly (and openly at the time) by the Christians in Jerusalem, and ALSO included the primitive precurser to the Nicean Creed.

Take your pick

a) James and the Christians in Jerusalem, and Mark who used only a slight variation in his liturgy were heretics (although I fail to see why they would espouse this dogma even if they were).

b) It is a big cover up by the trinitarian Christians-please provide evidence.

[/quote]

One more quick post before I go out of town. What you quote mert is an obvious forgery. I find it quite interesting that you can just throw something like this out there and then believe the onus is on me to disprove it. No, what you quote has no authority. Seems intriguing that something as inherently important as the trinity would only be mentioned in an extra-biblical source. Indeed it is something conjured by those wishing to support a word and idea never found in the bible.

Stella ad nauseum puts forth how your church produced and assembled the bible yet even with all that control over the bible they couldn’t include the word ‘trinity’ once? And here, as you assert, we have a bible writer apparently explicitly talking about the trinity yet his writings don’t make it into the bible when later writings of his counselling a congregation do? (Hint: time for reason and common sense to enter the picture)

717

[quote]doogie wrote:
So, basically it boils down to Jesus himself saying “I AM” one time?
[/quote]
Christ’s self-revelation to the Samaritan woman
St. John 4:7-26
[i]A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” For His disciples had gone into the city to buy food. Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?” Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.” Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.” The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have well said , ‘I have no husband’, for you have five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Then the woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (Who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, [quote]“I who speak to you am He.[/i]”[/quote]

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Jesus Christ speaks to the Samaritan woman about the gift of the Holy Spirit which becomes a fountain of water spiritually flowing within believers for eternal life.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Since the woman does not yet grasp the spiritual aspects which Jesus relates to her, He expresses His divine insight (of this Samaritan woman partaking in adulterous relations) which prompts her to believe He is a prophet.

[quote]b[/b][/quote] Literally, “I AM, who speak to you.” “I AM” is the name of God; its use indicates a theophany, or revelation of God. Jesus Christ reveals Himself to the Samaritan woman to be more than the Mosaic Prophet and more than the Jewish Messiah; indeed, He is the Incarnate God Himself.

718

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
doogie wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
doogie wrote:
Seriously, did Jesus ever say he was divine? Did he ever say he and God were one and the same?

John 20: 27-29
he said to Thomas, “Put your fingers here and look at my hands; then reath out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe!”
Thomas answered him “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who have not seen me and yet believe.”

Other than that, the Greek word which we translate in many places in the bible as Son of God, is specifically formulated to mean the divine Son of God.

So Jesus never directly said it, he just let Thomas make the assumption?

Jesus CLEARLY IMPLIED that Thomas was correct in the so-called “assumption.” For He replied: “Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing, and believing” (John 20:29, LITV).

Yet here is a DIRECT EXPLICIT quote from Jesus Christ saying that He is God (i.e., “I AM”):

“Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced. Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!”(John 8:56-58, LITV)

Compare the above with Exodus 3:11-14:

“And Moses said to God, Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring out the sons of Israel from Egypt? And He said, I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you that I have sent you, when you bring out the people from Egypt: You shall serve God on this mountain. And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall come to the sons of Israel and say to them, the God of your fathers has sent me to you; and they will say to me, What is His name? What shall I say to them? And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.”

More verses proving that Jesus Christ is God:

“So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).

“And the birth of Jesus Christ was this way (for His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph) before the coming together of them, she was found having babe in womb by the Holy Spirit. But her husband to be, Joseph, being just, and not willing to make her a public example, he purposed to put her away secretly. And as he was thinking about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord was seen by him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that in her is generated by the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. And all this happened so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a son, and they will call His name Emmanuel” (which translated is, God with us). And being aroused from sleep, Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took his wife, and did not know her until she bore her son, the First-born. And he called His name Jesus” (Mathew 1:18-25).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth” (John 1:1, 14).

“I and the Father are One! Then again the Jews took up stones, that they might stone Him. Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God” (John 10:30-33).

“Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased through His own blood” (Acts 20:28).

Notice that it says that GOD purchased the assembly of God with His own blood. But how can that be? Answer: Jesus Christ is one person, with two distinct natures (i.e., really and truly God as well as really and truly man); and therefore whatever can be predicated of either nature may be predicated of the person.

“Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God, which He promised before through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son who came of the seed of David according to flesh, who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 1:1-4).

“And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16).

“looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

"In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets; in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages; who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, He has inherited a name more excellent than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me. And again, when He brought the First-born into the world, He said, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” And as to the angels, He said, “Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;” but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom; You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands. They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment, and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.” But to which of the angels did He ever say, “Sit at My right hand until I place Your enemies as a footstool of Your feet?” (Hebrews 1:1-13).

“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death” (Revelation 1:17-18).
[/quote]

What a beastly monstrosity of misquoted, misapplied and completely misunderstood scripture! I’ll deal with this when I return.

Mull on this till then. John 8:58 quoted above reflects either a woefully inadequate understanding of scripture or a duplicitous desire to mislead. Take a look at the context. It’s a conversation about chronology! The Jews were questioning Jesus about his AGE. He then rebutted about the length of his existence not his identity. That’s why the American Standard Version reads John 8:58 like this, “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!’”

Now this will be a good test for those who attempted to use this verse to their own trinitarian ends. Will you admit you misused and misunderstood this scripture? We’re all waiting…

719

Fishlips wrote:[quote]
The Church of the First Three Centuries:
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity … derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and prophetic or holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact. The doctrine of the Trinity, as explained by these Fathers, was essentially different from the modern doctrine. This we state as a fact as susceptible of proof as any fact in the history of human opinions. We challenge any one to produce a single writer of any note, during the first three ages, who held this [Trinity] doctrine in the modern sense.”[/quote]
stellar_horizon wrote:[quote]
The early Church dogma of the Holy Trinity was preserved via oral tradition. Just like the Holy Bible says - to stand fast in all the traditions of the Apostles, whether by WORD or their epistle. The challenge to find this dogma in written format is not one which Orthodox Christianity ever needed to meet in the first place. Apostolic succession (Apostolic lineage + Apostolic teaching) proved/proves to be an air tight tradition. : )

Anyways, it’d be fruitful to this discussion if you could post some quotes of ante-Nicene Fathers who rejected the notion of the Holy Trinity as the Orthodox Christian Church preserves it today, some 2000 years after Her inception.[/quote]

Fishlips wrote:[quote]
Second Century Orthodoxy, by J.A. Buckley:
"Up until the end of the second century at least, the universal Church remained united in one basic sense; they all accepted the supremacy of the Father. They all regarded God the Father Almighty as alone supreme, immutable, ineffable and without beginning…

“With the passing of those second century writers and leaders, the Church found itself … slipping slowly but inexorably toward that point … where at the Council of Nicaea the culmination of all this piece-meal eroding of the original faith was reached. There, a small volatile minority, foisted its heresy upon an acquiescent majority, and with the political authorities behind it, coerced, cajoled and intimidated those who strove to maintain the pristine purity of their faith untarnished.”

The Trinity doctrine has deeply sordid roots.[/quote]
stellar_horizon wrote:[quote]
Blah Blah Blah. Post some quotes from the Orthodox Christian Fathers to redeem your stance on the Holy Trinity instead of providing us with the feedback of a heterodox source. I could post 100 passages which completely refute what Buckley has asserted. The proof is in the pudding. Give us the pudding![/quote]
Fishlips wrote:[quote]
This is exactly the reason why I knew better than to bother quoting anyone or anything other than the bible with you because you won’t accept anything unless it says what you want it to say. You actually even did it with a scripture also but that’s much easier to focus on and discuss than a bunch of quotes from here and there.
[/quote]
So you admit that you can’t produce any evidence that refutes the early Church dogma of the Holy Trinity from within the Bible or the Church. You’re the one whose entire faith was supposedly completely derived from the Bible, yet you draw assumptions and conclusions which are NOT specified therein. Now you bring in outside testimony to try and support your belief system. Your above passages don’t prove anything at all unless they’re backed up with scriptures from Patristic writings. Writings from the Fathers can be misconstrued and misinterpreted. That’s why all I asked was for you to provide the scriptures which Buckley was referring to, but all you did was respond by whining some more.
[i]Good job![/i]

Then you claim you shouldn’t have cited an extra-Biblical source (and a heretical source at that) because it would’ve proved useless; you turn around and criticize mertdawg for providing the liturgy of the Holy Apostle James which clearly supports the dogma of the Holy Trinity.
[i]Quite hypocritical indeed.[/i]

So which is it? Is the Bible your only source of belief, or are you venturing outside the Bible to assemble your faith? And if you can provide extra-Biblical sources in attempts to prove your stance, then why do you criticize mertdawg for doing the same? At least mertdawg’s extra-Biblical source is an actual Apostle of Jesus Christ, someone who actually walked with Christ and had an opportunity to participate in His ministry from its very beginning, someone whose name is inscribed on the four walls of heaven (Revelations 21:14), someone whose epistles we both glorify as holy, someone who was filled with the Holy Spirit to the capacity of working wonders & miracles, speaking in tongues, and tasted heaven before his earthly death (Matthew 17:1). What are the credentials for your extra-Biblical source?

720


Saint Photini, the Samaritan Woman

The New Testament describes the familiar account of the woman at the well (John 4:5-42), who was a Samaritan. Up to that point she had led a sinful life, one which resulted in a rebuke from Jesus Christ. However, she responded to Christ’s stern admonition with genuine repentance, was forgiven her sinful ways, and became a convert to the Christian Faith - taking the name “Photini” at Baptism, which literally means “the enlightened one”.

A significant figure in the Johannine community, the Samaritan Woman, like many other women, contributed to the spread of Christianity. She therefore occupies a place of honor among the apostles. In Greek sermons from the fourth to the fourteenth centuries she is called “apostle” and “evangelist”. In these sermons the Samaritan Woman is often compared to the male disciples and apostles and found to surpass them.

Later, Byzantine hagiographers developed the story of the Samaritan Woman, beginning where Saint John left off. At Pentecost Saint Photini received baptism, along with her five sisters, Anatole, Photo, Photis, Paraskeve, Kyriake, and her two sons, Photeinos and Joseph. She then began a missionary career, traveling far and wide, preaching the good news of the Messiah’s coming, His death and resurrection. When Nero, the emperor of Rome, began to persecute Christians, Photini and her son Joseph were in Carthage, in Africa, where she was preaching the Christian gospel. After Jesus appeared to Photini in a dream, she sailed to Rome. Her son and many Christians from Africa accompanied her. Photini’s arrival and activity aroused curiosity in the capital city. Everyone talked about her, “Who is this woman?” they asked, “She came here with a crowd of followers and she preaches Christ with great boldness.”

Soldiers were ordered to bring her to the emperor, but Photini anticipated them. Before they could arrest her, Photini, with her son Joseph and her Christian friends, went to Nero. When the emperor saw them, he asked why they had come. Photini answered, “We have come to teach you to believe in Christ.” The half-mad ruler of the Roman Empire did not frighten her. She wanted to convert him! Nero asked the saints their names. Again Photini answered. By name she introduced herself, her five sisters and younger son. The emperor then demanded to know whether they had all agreed to die for the Nazarene. Photini spoke for them. “Yes, for the love of Him we rejoice and in His name we’ll gladly die.” Hearing their defiant words, Nero ordered their hands beaten with iron rods for three hours. At the end of each hour another persecutor took up the beating. The saints, however, felt no pain. Nothing happened to their hands. Photini joyfully quoted words of a psalm by David: “God is my help. No matter what anyone does to me, I shall not be afraid.” Perplexed by the their endurance and confidence, Nero ordered them thrown into jail. Photini and her five sisters were brought to the golden reception hall in the imperial palace. There, the six women were seated on golden thrones, In front of them stood a large golden table covered with gold coins, jewels and dresses. Nero hoped to tempt the women by this display of wealth and luxury. Nero then ordered his daughter Domnina, with her slave girls, to go speak with the Christian women. Women, he thought, would succeed in persuading their Christian sisters to deny their God.

Domnina greeted Photini graciously and mentioning the name of Christ. On hearing the princess’ greeting, the saint thanked God. She then embraced and kissed Domnina. The women talked. But the outcome of the women’s talk was not what Nero wished.

Photini catechized Domnina and her hundred slave girls and baptized them all. She gave the name Anthousa to Nero’s daughter. After her baptism, Anthousa immediately ordered all the gold and jewels on the golden table distributed to the poor of Rome.

When the emperor heard that his own daughter had been converted to Christianity, he condemned Photini and all her companions to death by fire. For seven days the furnace burned, but when the door of the furnace was opened, it was seen that the fire had not harmed the saints. Next the emperor tried to destroy the saints with poison, Photini offered to be the first to drink it. “O King,” she said, “I will drink the poison first so that you might see the power of my Christ and God.” All the saints then drank the poison after her. None suffered any ill effects from it. In vain Nero subjected Photini, her sisters, sons and friends to every known torture. The saints survived unscathed to taunt and ridicule their persecutor. For three years they were held in a Roman prison. Saint Photini transformed it into a “house of God”. Many Romans who came to the prison were converted and baptized. Finally, the enraged tyrant had all the saints, except for Photini, beheaded. She was thrown first into a deep, dry well and then into prison again. Photini now grieved that she was alone, that she had not received the crown of martyrdom together with her five sisters, Anatole, Photo, Photis, Paraskeve and Kyriake and her two sons, Photeinos and Joseph. Night and day she prayed for release from this life. One night, God appeared to her, made the sign of the cross over her three times. The vision filled her with joy. Many days later, while she hymned and blessed God, Saint Photini gave her soul into God’s hands.

For generation after generation, Orthodox Christians have addressed this prayer to the woman exalted by the Messiah when He sat by the well in Samaria and talked with her:
Illuminated by the Holy Spirit, All-Glorious One, from Christ the Savior you drank the water of salvation. With open hand you give it to those who thirst. Great-Martyr Photini, Equal-to-the-Apostles, pray to Christ for the salvation of our souls.

721

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Stella ad nauseum puts forth how your church produced and assembled the bible yet even with all that control over the bible they couldn’t include the word ‘trinity’ once? And here, as you assert, we have a bible writer apparently explicitly talking about the trinity yet his writings don’t make it into the bible when later writings of his counselling a congregation do? (Hint: time for reason and common sense to enter the picture)
[/quote]
Fishlips, you still fail to understand the atmosphere and the reason by which the Bible was produced & compiled.

There was no need for the early Church to emphasize the dogma of the Holy Trinity in written format since the faithful realized that the Apostles’ oral tradition was as equally valid as their written tradition. None of the faithful rejected Saint Paul when he taught them about the dogma of the Holy Trinity in person. The faithful didn’t say, “Paul, we hear what you’re teaching us about the Holy Trinity, but unless you put it in writing, we’ll never accept it!”

None of Christ’s writings are contained anywhere in the Bible, yet you accept the written tradition of the Apostles in accordance with the Truth He relayed to them via oral transmission. The Apostles had no qualms with the teachings which Jesus Christ orally transmitted, so why must you?

The issue for early Christians was never the manner by which the Faith was transmitted. The issue was deriving the authority of the source whose oral or written teachings were being spread. If the source drifted away from Apostolic teaching, they were challenged, given an opportunity to repent, and later excommunicated from the Body of Christ if they kept preaching heresy. If the source claimed he was a direct apostle of Christ, then his Apostolic lineage was investigated.

As Orthodox Christians remain faithful to the orally received Truth of Jesus Christ which was contained in the scriptures (ie. written tradition) of the Apostles, we remain faithful that the Church through Apostolic succession accurately preserves and passes on Christ’s Truth through their word (oral tradition).

Orthodox Christians embrace 100% of the Christian Faith as Christ orally transmitted it; this is what it means to abide within the fullness of Christ. If you only cling to the written portion of the Christian Faith, and draw heresies (such as refuting the Divinity of Jesus Christ), then it’s obvious you’re not embracing the Truth as commanded by the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by WORD or our epistle.