Jerffy! Long time, no see! You’re sure making your good ol’ pal Cream look like quite the honorable gentleman. You know what they say, birds of a feather, stick together…
Why don’t you run back to the politics threads so Professor X, Moriarty, vroom, and a handful of other T-Nation fans can continue ripping any morsel of intelligence you may possess to tiny little shreds? I have no time or will to keep publically embarrassing you.
take it easy!
S(ervant of satan)tellar horizon,
It may be that you are too far gone along the path of Darkness to have any hope of salvation. Pride (“We have vanquished the foe, you are a heretic”), blasphemy (comparisons of your putrid sinning self to the Holy ones), false usurpations of the power of Jesus and the Father (judging others, including myself, based on very little information, when true Judgement is expressly reserved to Them), sowing discord among brothers (demaeaning other people of the Faith, driving people away from the Church.)
While you are busy insulting others and calling them “your opponents”, telling people of the Faith that they serve the antichrist, blaspheming, strutting around full of pride, and sowing discord, people of better quality and purer Faith than you will be Judged (NOT BY YOU) and found worthy. They will find Heaven.
If you continue to sin so loudly and strongly and unrepentantly you will find only the eternal Hell which now awaits you.
I urge you to turn to the path of the faithful and the righteous, and away from your sinful braggadocio and stone-casting. It is never too late to turn away from the sinful folly of your current ways.
I have done what little I could.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
Mert you ought to be more careful what you wish for. I’ve allowed you to bait me back into this fruitless dialogue.
Upon conversing with yourself and Stella I feel like the man who fought the Black Knight in Monty Python’s the Holy Grail. You think you have a fighting chance as you brandish your sword. You took a swing and I proceeded to choppeth off your arm. You look at it, regard your major loss as a mere flesh wound, and carry on the fight. So I take off your other arm. Seemingly ignorant of the casualty you’ve become you valiantly kick my shins. Since you’re not getting it I kindly seperate one of your legs from your body. Now hopping like a child’s toy you, in vain, make yet more attempts by lobbing feeble head butts my way, with the apparent belief you’re yet able to make any headway (pun intended). Now I have returned to sever your remaining supporting leg. But, of course, as I walk away, leaving you helpless, you will claim, as you have, that I’m running away, then finally that perhaps we’ll call it a draw. No my friend, the laughable ideas spread by yourself and Stella won’t be allowed to stand. My patience has worn.
Lest I miss precious sleep I will address your expressions in the 'morrow.
Instead of using your precious time to answer a single post on page 22 onwards, you complain about your patience wearing thin and develop an analogy (that actually reflects you as that black knight). Funny how it backfired on you. You’re silly Fishlips…[/quote]
You didn’t actually just say the equivalent of ‘I know you are but what am I’ did you?[quote]
b[/b] Your interpretations of scripture seemed reasonable, but so did ours. The difference is that the interpretations we provided you with are in accordance with those of the early Church.
Bonus points for Orthodox Christians.[/quote]
No your ideas certainly are not reasonable. You claimed to use ‘common sense’ and ‘reason’ also but I beg to differ. Just when these two attributes become MOST CRITICAL to use is when you throw them out the window in order to promote and accept your ‘mystical’ ideas. Your every post proves these to be foreign attributes to you.[quote]
b[/b] The holy traditions and beliefs which you deny (such as Apostolic succession, the Eucharist, the Holy Trinity) were practiced and taught by the early Church, yet you falsely claim they were not. How do we know? I posted authentic early Church manuscripts as proof.
Bonus points for Orthodox Christians.[/quote]
Let’s see:
A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church:
“A clearly formulated doctrinal position in contrast to Arianism was taken up by a minority only, although this minority carried the day.”
The Church of the First Three Centuries:
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity … derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and prophetic or holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact. The doctrine of the Trinity, as explained by these Fathers, was essentially different from the modern doctrine. This we state as a fact as susceptible of proof as any fact in the history of human opinions. We challenge any one to produce a single writer of any note, during the first three ages, who held this [Trinity] doctrine in the modern sense.”
Second Century Orthodoxy, by J.A. Buckley:
"Up until the end of the second century at least, the universal Church remained united in one basic sense; they all accepted the supremacy of the Father. They all regarded God the Father Almighty as alone supreme, immutable, ineffable and without beginning…
“With the passing of those second century writers and leaders, the Church found itself … slipping slowly but inexorably toward that point … where at the Council of Nicaea the culmination of all this piece-meal eroding of the original faith was reached. There, a small volatile minority, foisted its heresy upon an acquiescent majority, and with the political authorities behind it, coerced, cajoled and intimidated those who strove to maintain the pristine purity of their faith untarnished.”
The Trinity doctrine has deeply sordid roots.[quote]
b[/b] In this discussion, you argued theology without having been baptized or chrismated within the genuine Body of Christ whereas mertdawg and I have been. The Holy Spirit preaches One Truth and transmits It to those in the Body of Christ; heretics are devoid of such grace.
Bonus points for Orthodox Christians.[/quote]
Oh I’m baptized I’m just leaving my religious affiliation out for now so we can focus on the Bible. Sounds like your starting to ‘reach’ here.
[quote]
b[/b] You claimed you only used the Bible to support your faith, but you also drew conclusions & assumptions not mentioned therein. There are over 30,000 official denominations in existence and each proclaim their own interpretation of scripture is accurate. Your theological system fits into one of these 30,000 denominations or is perhaps the 30,001st… Mertdawg and I however, share the same exact doctrines & dogmas, congruent with the One Faith which Jesus Christ preached during His ministry.
Bonus points for the Orthodox Christians.[/quote]
No, I drew no conclusions, certainly made no assumptions, that are not easily reached from an honest examination of the bible and from ‘reasoning on the scriptures’ after the pattern Paul set.(Acts 17:2)[quote]
Four bonus points for Orthodox Christians, zero points for your undisclosed religious affiliation.[/quote]
Upon further review the Orthodox dudes have had their 4 points disallowed and have been sent home.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
extol7extol wrote:
Whoever believes in a god who wishes things would happen (like wishing that everyone without exception would be saved) but who does not and/or cannot do whatever he wishes, does not believe in the God of the Bible.
You’ve got it backwards. God came first-then the bible.
You apparently believe in some kind of heartless robot who is limited by the time and space of the universe to HAVE to have made up his mind (ALREADY) in time.[/quote]
Of course, God came first. For the Bible teaches “In the beginning God…”
As for being limited by the time and space of the universe: Not at all. He created time and space. He is in control of ALL that He creates, unlike your idol who CANNOT control at least some of what he creates since he let’s his creatures thwart his desires. Your idol is divided against himself, for he gives his creatures the power and ability(i.e., freewill) to nullify his power and ability to save.
The god whom you pray to cannot save, clearly evinced by the fact that those sinners whom he wants saved perish in spite of this desire.
You are one of the many idolaters who sets up the wood of a carved image, and prays to a god who cannot save; you know nothing (Isaiah 45:20).
If you say that your god wants to save everyone without exception, and yet some perish anyways; then maybe what you ought to do is cry out louder! For maybe he’s sleeping and that’s why he’s unable to accomplish his desires: Groggy from too much sleep.
Look at what Elijah said to the prophets of Baal:
1Ki 18:26-27 “And they took the bull that was given to them, and prepared, and called on the name of Baal from the morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, answer us! And there was no sound, and no one was answering; and they leaped about the altar that one had made. And it happened at noon, that Elijah taunted them and said, Call with a loud voice, for he is a god; for he is meditating, or pursuing, or on a journey; it may be he is asleep and must be awakened.”
Just like Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal, so I mock those who pray and cry aloud to a god who cannot save.
P.S. “But our God is in Heaven; He has done all that He has pleased” (Psalm 115:3).
P1 Idols do not do whatever they please and the true God does.
P2 Your idol does not do whatever he pleases.
C1 Thus your idol is not the true God.
Refute the logic.
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Upon further review the Orthodox dudes have had their 4 points disallowed and have been sent home.[/quote]
Again, your gonna have to offer evidence that the Liturgy of Saint James was a fraud. Or state that he was the first heretic. The Christians in Jerusalem by 50 AD spoke the words:
“Worshipping the undivided trinity which has saved us”
Accept that, or show evidence for one of the other two stands.
And, when you mention that posters on this site responded unreasonably or abandoned reason, give examples. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I can’t find an example of unreasoned logic on either side-its a question of how much you weigh the sources.
I want to know this. When, why and how did the Bible become the only and perfect source of truth about God.
If it is, then why did the apostles (72) particularly Mark and James write services which paralleled the Synogogue service which included prayers referring to the trinity and which LATER substituted the Gospels for some of the Torah readings?
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Oh I’m baptized I’m just leaving my religious affiliation out for now so we can focus on the Bible. Sounds like your starting to ‘reach’ here.
[/quote]
JW
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
P.S. “But our God is in Heaven; He has done all that He has pleased” (Psalm 115:3).
P1 Idols do not do whatever they please and the true God does.
P2 Your idol does not do whatever he pleases.
C1 Thus your idol is not the true God.
Refute the logic.
[/quote]
So basically your saying that if God wanted everyone to have free will, he couldn’t do it?
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Dear extol7extol,
Not that it will make any difference, but we Orthodox do not believe that the sinner has power to get themselves saved. We believe that the Christian basically can do one thing, which translated means to “fall down” or stop, or perhaps something like “call for help” but that we then are saved by having our wills submitted to God.[/quote]
You say that you orthodox do not believe the sinner has power to get themselves saved. Well you also believe that Jesus has power to save the sinner, since some perish. It takes teamwork. “There’s no ‘i’ in team!” So, I guess that the sinner supposedly saves Christ’s work from being a total failure. Wow. What would he do without you?
Anyways…In contrast to that false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner, here is the true gospel conditioned solely on the work of Christ:
The gospel has to do with the person and work of Jesus Christ. “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2).
In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:17). What is this righteousness? Does it really matter whether or not someone knows, understands, and believes this righteousness? God says through the Apostle Paul that anyone who is ignorant of this righteousness is lost, guilty of trying to establish a righteousness of his own (Romans 10:1-3). Jesus Christ said that those who do not believe the gospel will be damned (Mark 16:16). Thus, it is imperative that we know what this righteousness is. It is a matter of life and death.
The righteousness that is revealed in the gospel is how God, who is totally righteous and will “by no means clear the guilty” (Numbers 14:18), saves filthy sinners and yet remains righteous in punishing all sin. It shows how God is “just and the justifier of one who has faith in Jesus” (Romans 3:26). It shows how God is “a righteous God and a Savior” (Isaiah 45:21).
How is it that vile, rotten, hell-deserving sinners enter into fellowship with God, who is pure and holy and undefiled and hates sin? Here is where the precious gospel – the good news – is revealed. The gospel is the good news of salvation based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone.
In the perfect life of Christ, Christ’s perfect sinless
righteousness is imputed to (charged to the account of) all God’s people. In the death of Christ, all the sins of all God’s people are imputed to (charged to the account of) Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ fully paid the penalty that His people deserved. Thus, “It is finished” (John 19:30); all that needed to be done to secure the salvation of God’s people was done by Christ’s righteous life and atoning death. This is the good news. There will not be one sinner in hell whom Christ represented in His life and death.
In this gospel the glory of God, in all His attributes, is revealed. And God reveals throughout Holy Scriptures that He does all things for His glory. The glory of God is the reason for everything. And the glory of God shines forth most brightly in the gospel. When God regenerates someone, God glorifies Himself by causing that person to believe the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Amen.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Now when you talk about predestination or determinism, what exactly do you mean? Do you believe that 1) every movement of every atom in the universe is predetermined from the dawn of time to the end? Or is it 2) just necessary for you to believe that those who are saved have been known from the beginning?
There is a big difference. The first of these is a meaningless statement because atoms/motions are not real-they are observations about the universe and so you are basically using terms that don’t mesh with terms I am familiar with.[/quote]
Atoms are not real? Okay. Yet what would you say Hebrews 11:3 is referring to when it talks of things SEEN, which are not made of things which are VISIBLE (i.e., invisible to the naked eye).
“By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible” (Hebrews 11:3).
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The second simply makes God subject to the bible and the flow of time. (as would the first, except that the first uses terms unfortunately in a context which is meaningless).
Which one is it? I’ve asked several times.[/quote]
The Bible teaches that God created the universe (which obviously includes “every movement of every atom”) in six days and continues to sovereignly and actively uphold, control, and sustain it.
As for the second question: “Or is it just necessary for you to believe that those who are saved have been known from the beginning?”
The false religionists believe that God chose to save certain people before the foundation of the world based on what He saw they would do; God chose those who He foresaw would accept salvation. This is not only false, but it is very absurd. God apparently “knowing” who will be saved since he just looked through the halls of time and saw who would let god help them save themselves.
In stark contrast to the above, the Biblical view is that God chose to save some people by the blood and righteousness of Christ alone before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His good pleasure to do so. Jn. 6:37,65. Mt. 13:10- 15. Acts 13:48. Rm. 8:28-30; 9:11-24 Eph. 1:3-6,11. 2 Ths. 2:13. 2 Tim. 1:9. 1 Pt. 2:7-8.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:Also, I have not seen a response to the proposal which comes from scholarly sources quite outside of the Orthodox Church that the Liturgy of James the Lord’s brother was in full practice in Jerusalem by the 40’s AD, and that the Archeological conclusion is that the new testament was compiled by the apostles for the PURPOSE of being the reading in this service that paralleled that Torah in the Jewish services.
How can you , yourself cite James’ epistle, and yet not accept the service which he composed for which the Gospels were MERELY a part?.[/quote]
I test everything with the Word of God, including liturgies and archeological conclusions. Speaking of archeology, do you believe that the so-called “Shroud of Turin” was authentic? Just curious.
All “churches” that teach that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception; and all “churches” that believe that at least some who believe this blasphemy are saved persons, are really what the Bible calls “Synagogues of Satan.”
[quote]mertdawg wrote:The apostles did not go around reading the bible to people. They told people about Jesus and his teaching and if they were interested in converting, they came to the first part of the Divine service called the Liturgy of the Word (or Catecheumans: meaning those preparing for baptism) and over the course of a year of preparation they would hear all of the Gospels[/quote].
Acts 8:35 “And opening his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, Philip announced the gospel to him, Jesus.”
Acts 13:16-52 Paul preaches…
Acts 16:30-32 “And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do that I may be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. And they spoke the Word of the Lord to him, and to all those in his house.”
Notice that they “spoke the Word of the Lord to him.” In other words, they went aroud reading the Bible (Old Testament) to people.
Acts 18:24,28 “But a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus, being powerful in the Scriptures…For he powerfully confuted the Jews publicly, proving through the Scriptures Jesus to be the Christ.”
Bible alone.
Well, since your “church” believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then you believe that the blood of Christ did not - in fact, COULD not - save ANYONE in and of itself. You believe that it is NOT the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. Instead, you believe that it is the work of the SINNER that makes the difference. You might as well be dancing around in a circle pounding your drums and shouting chants to the rain god. All your liturgical worship is vain, futile, and empty. For you offer it to a god who cannot save(Isaiah 45:20).
[quote]mertdawg wrote: Ask God that HIS WILL not YOURS be done, sincerely and with a broken heart.
[/quote]
But you can’t ask your god that, for MANY thwart his will and thus THEIR WILL is done, and NOT his.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
So basically your saying that if God wanted everyone to have free will, he couldn’t do it?[/quote]
That’s like asking, “So basically your saying that if God wanted to create another being with autonomous freedom, he couldn’t do it?”
Or like asking, “So basically your saying that if God wanted to will Himself out of existence, He couldn’t do it?”
Or like asking, “So basically your saying that if God wanted to cease being righteous, holy, and just, He couldn’t do it?”
Free will seeks to make the creature independent of the Creator and seeks to make the Potter depend on the clay. In other words, those who assert free will are confused about the fact that they are not God. They have things turned around. They think that God is subject to their free wills. On the contrary, they are subject to God’s free will.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
Oh I’m baptized I’m just leaving my religious affiliation out for now so we can focus on the Bible. Sounds like your starting to ‘reach’ here.
JW[/quote]
If I remember correctly, it was fishlips who denied that Christ was God. Anyways, the following is specifically for him–unless of course I did not remember correctly, and he did not deny that Christ was God.
There is only one man among the descendants of Adam born without a sinful nature, and this is Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son incarnate. He was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit, contracting no guilt or defilement from Adam. He was totally and completely without sin. [Isa 7:14; 53:9; Mat 1:25; Luk 1:31-35; 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26-27; 1Pe 2:22-23; 1Jo 3:5]
Jesus of Nazareth is really and truly God as well as really and truly human. He is the only descendant of Adam with two natures, human and divine. These two natures are continually without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Scripture rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was merely human and not fully divine. It likewise rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was a supernatural being but not fully human. [Deu 18:15; Psa 2:7; 110:1; Isa 9:6; Luk 2:7; Joh 1:1,14,18; 3:16,18; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30-33; Act 20:28; Rom 1:3; 1Co 15:47; Gal 4:4; Phi 2:6-8; Col 1:15; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:1-5; 5:5; 1Jo 4:9,15; Rev 1:17-18]
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Scripture rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was merely human and not fully divine. It likewise rejects the lie that Jesus Christ was a supernatural being but not fully human. [Deu 18:15; Psa 2:7; 110:1; Isa 9:6; Luk 2:7; Joh 1:1,14,18; 3:16,18; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30-33; Act 20:28; Rom 1:3; 1Co 15:47; Gal 4:4; Phi 2:6-8; Col 1:15; 1Ti 3:16; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:1-5; 5:5; 1Jo 4:9,15; Rev 1:17-18]
[/quote]
Do any of those quote Jesus as saying he is divine?
[quote]sw212 wrote:
Wow, a couple of you spend way too much time arguing these points. Geese.
Steve.[/quote]
I agree. So that future disagreements don’t happen, everyone here should just convert to Reformed Calvinism. d-:
(that means you too pookie)
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Dear extol7extol,
Not that it will make any difference, but we Orthodox do not believe that the sinner has power to get themselves saved. We believe that the Christian basically can do one thing, which translated means to “fall down” or stop, or perhaps something like “call for help” but that we then are saved by having our wills submitted to God.
You say that you orthodox do not believe the sinner has power to get themselves saved. Well you also believe that Jesus has power to save the sinner, since some perish. It takes teamwork. “There’s no ‘i’ in team!” So, I guess that the sinner supposedly saves Christ’s work from being a total failure. Wow. What would he do without you?
[/quote]
We believe that you are saved by dying to your human will in baptism at which God’s will is all that acts through you, but we can sin still because we live in a fallen universe. Orthodoxy is an ACT (if you want to call it that) of refusing to be self willful. You seem to interpret that as meaning that we help God to save us so we disagree here, but we do agree that God’s will is the sole end of the universe. I just think that his genius may go beyond your interpretation that he can’t WILL to allow free will of others. I see free will as a good thing because it is the one acceptable sacrifice to God.
Does this mean that a cognitively disabled individual may as a result be “unsaved?” Just asking. I believe that if you completely submit your will to God’s will, the soul and mind will know.
We hold that Christ’s death atoned and destroyed the curse of sin which is DEATH, rather than HELL. Now we are like the angels who can either submit our will or be willful. When we are joined with God, those who are of one will with him will survive, the rest will be inihillated by the energy of his glory.
I am curious if you believe in total physical determism.
So he sees all of time at once, but because he controls it, it can change?
I’m not sure, but the church did posess the shroud at one time and has images of it. The shroud of tourin is clearly either the basis for, or based on these images.
[quote]]
mertdawg wrote:The apostles did not go around reading the bible to people. They told people about Jesus and his teaching and if they were interested in converting, they came to the first part of the Divine service called the Liturgy of the Word (or Catecheumans: meaning those preparing for baptism) and over the course of a year of preparation they would hear all of the Gospels.
Acts 8:35 “And opening his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, Philip announced the gospel to him, Jesus.”
Acts 13:16-52 Paul preaches…
Acts 16:30-32 “And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do that I may be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. And they spoke the Word of the Lord to him, and to all those in his house.”
Notice that they “spoke the Word of the Lord to him.” In other words, they went aroud reading the Bible (Old Testament) to people.
[/quote]
I believe so, but in the transformed Synogogue services which James lead from day 1 post pentechost.
But the bible itself says they preached all of Jesus’ teaching whether by scriptural or oral tradition. It’s been posted many times before.
St Alexis Toth the confessor and defender of Orthodoxy in America
Our holy Father Alexis, the defender of the Orthodox Faith and zealous worker in the Lord’s vineyard, was born in Austro-Hungary on March 18, 1854 into a poor Carpatho-Russian family. Like many others in the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Toths were Eastern Rite Catholics. Alexis’ father and brother were priests and his uncle was a bishop in the Uniate church. He received an excellent education and knew several languages (Carpatho-Russian, Hungarian, Russian, German, Latin, and a reading knowledge of Greek). He married Rosalie Mihalich, a priest’s daughter, and was ordained on April 18, 1878 to serve as second priest in a Uniate parish. His wife died soon afterwards, followed by their only child - losses which the saint endured with the patience of Job.
In May, 1879, Fr Alexis was appointed secretary to the Bishop of Presov and also Administrator of the Diocesan Administration. He was also entrusted with the directorship of an orphanage. At Presov Seminary, Father Toth taught Church History and Canon Law, which served him well in his later life in America. St Alexis did not serve long as a professor or an administrator, for the Lord had a different future planned for him. In October, 1889 he was appointed to serve as pastor of a Uniate parish in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Like another Abraham, he left his country and his relatives to fulfill the will of God (Gen 12:1).
Upon his arrival in America, Father Alexis presented himself to the local Roman Catholic diocesan authority, Archbishop John Ireland, since there was no Uniate bishop in America at that time. Archbishop Ireland belonged to the party of American Catholics who favored the “Americanization” of all Roman Catholics. His vision for the future was founded on a common faith, customs, and the use of the English language for everything except liturgical celebrations. Naturally, ethnic parishes and non-Latin rite clergy did not fit into this vision. Thus, when Father Toth came to present his credentials, Archbishop Ireland greeted him with open hostility. He refused to recognize him as a legitimate Catholic priest or to grant permission for him to serve in his diocese.
As a historian and professor of Canon Law, Father Toth knew his rights under the terms of the Unia and would not accept Archbishop Ireland’s unjust decisions. In October of 1890, there was a meeting of eight of the ten Uniate priests in America at Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania under the chairmanship of Father Toth. By this time the American bishops had written to Rome demanding the recall to Europe of all Uniate priests in America, fearing that Uniate priests and parishes would hinder the assimilation of immigrants into American culture. Uniate bishops in Europe refused to listen to the priests’ pleas for help.
Archbishop Ireland sent a letter to his parishes ordering their members not to attend Father Toth’s parish nor to accept any priestly ministrations from him. Expecting imminent deportation, Father Toth explained the situation to his parishioners and suggested it might be best for him to leave and return to Europe.
“No,” they said. “Let’s go to the Russian bishop. Why should we always submit ourselves to foreigners?” It was decided to write to the Russian consul in San Francisco in order to ask for the name and address of the Russian bishop. Ivan Mlinar went to San Francisco to make initial contact with Bishop Vladimir; then in February, 1891 Father Toth and his church warden, Paul Podany, also made the journey. Subsequently, Bishop Vladimir came to Minneapolis and on March 25, 1891 received Father Toth and 361 parishioners into the Orthodox Church of their ancestors. The parishioners regarded this event as a new Triumph of Orthodoxy, crying out with joy: “Glory to God for His great mercy!”
This initiative came from the people themselves, and was not the result of any coercion from outsiders. The Russian Orthodox Church was unaware of the existence of these Slavic Uniate immigrants to America, but responded positively to their petition to be reunited to the Orthodox Church.
The example of St Alexis and his parish in returning to Orthodoxy was an encouragement to hundreds of other Uniates. The ever-memorable one was like a candle upon a candlestick giving light to others (Mt 5:15), and his flock may be likened to the leaven mixed with meal which leavened the whole (Mt 13:33). Through his fearless preaching he uprooted the tares which had sprung up in the wheat of true doctrine, and exposed the false teachings which had led his people astray. Although he did not hesitate to point out errors in the doctrines of other denominations, he was careful to warn his flock against intolerance. His writings and sermons are filled with admonitions to respect other people and to refrain from attacking their faith.
While it is true that he made some strong comments, especially in his private correspondence with the church administration, it must be remembered that this was done while defending the Orthodox Church and the American Mission from unfounded accusations by people who used much harsher language than Father Toth. His opponents may be characterized by intolerance, rude behaviour, unethical methods and threats against him and his parishioners. Yet, when Father Alexis was offended or deceived by other people he forgave them, and he would often ask his bishop to forgive his omissions and mistakes.
In the midst of great hardships, this herald of godly theology and sound doctrine poured forth an inexhaustible stream of Orthodox writings for new converts, and gave practical advice on how to live in an Orthodox manner. For example, his article “How We should Live in America” stresses the importance of education, cleanliness, sobriety, and the presence of children in church on Sundays and Holy Days.
Although the Minneapolis parish was received into the Orthodox Church in March, 1891, it was not until July, 1892 that the Holy Synod of Russia recognized and accepted the parish into the Diocese of Alaska and the Aleutians. This resolution reached America only in October, 1892. During that time there was a climate of religious and ethnic hostility against the new converts. Father Alexis was accused of selling out his own Carpatho-Russian people and his religion to the “Muscovites” for financial gain.
In reality he did not receive any financial support for a long time, for his parish was very poor. Until his priestly salary began to arrive from Russia, the righteous one was obliged to work in a bakery in order to support himself. Even though his funds were meager, he did not neglect to give alms to the poor and needy. He shared his money with other clergy worse off than himself, and contributed to the building of churches and to the education of seminarians in Minneapolis. He was not anxious about his life (Mt 6:25), what he would eat or drink or wear. Trusting in God to take care of him, St Alexis followed the admonition of Our Savior to “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you” (Mt 6:33). So he bore the tribulation, slander, and physical attacks with patience and spiritual joy, reminding us that “godliness is stronger than all” (Wisdom of Solomon 10:12).
Bishops Vladimir, Nicholas, St. Tikhon, and Platon recognized the special gifts of Father Toth, so they often sent him forth to preach and teach wherever there were people of Slavic background. Even though he was aware of his shortcomings and inadequacies, yet he was obedient to the instructions of the bishops. He did not hesitate or make excuses, but went immediately to fulfill his mission. St Alexis visited many Uniate parishes, explaining the differences between Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Uniatism, stressing that the true way to salvation is in Orthodoxy.
Like Josiah, “he behaved himself uprightly in the conversion of his people” (Sir 49:2). He was instrumental in the formation or return of seventeen parishes, planting a vineyard of Christ in America, and increasing its fruitful yield many times over. By 1909, the time of his blessed repose, many thousands of Carpatho-Russian and Galician Uniates had returned to Orthodoxy. This was a major event in the history of the North American Mission, which would continue to shape the future of Orthodoxy in this country for many generations to come. Any future growth or success may truly be regarded as the result of Father Toth’s apostolic labors.
Who can tell of the saint’s spiritual struggles? Who can speak of the prayers which his pious soul poured forth unto God? He did not make a public display of his piety, but prayed to God in secret with all modesty, with contrition and inward tears. God, Who sees everything done in secret, openly rewarded the saint (Mt 6:6). It is inconceivable that St Alexis could have accomplished his apostolic labors unless God had blessed and strengthened him for such work. Today the Church continues to reap the fruits of his teaching and preaching.
Father Toth’s efforts did not go unrecognized in his own lifetime. He received a jeweled miter from the Holy Synod, as well as the Order of St Vladimir and the Order of St Anna from Czar Nicholas II for distinguished service and devotion to God and country. In 1907, he was considered as a candidate for the episcopal office. He declined this honor, however, humbly pointing out that this responsibility should be given to a younger, healthier man.
At the end of 1908, St. Alexis’ health began to decline due to a complication of illneses. He went to the seashore in southern New Jersey in an attempt to regain his health, but soon returned to Wilkes-Barre, where he was confined to bed for two months. The righteous one reposed on Friday, May 7, 1909 (April 24 on the Old Calendar), the feast of Sts. Sava and Alexius the Hermit of the Kiev Caves. St Alexis’ love and concern for his spiritual children did not cease with his death. Before closing the account of his life, it would be most appropriate to reveal but one example of his heavenly intercession:
In January, 1993 a certain man prayed to St. Alexis to help him obtain information about his son from whom he had been separated for twenty-eight years. Placing his confidence in the saint’s boldness before God, he awaited an answer to his prayer. The very next day the man’s son telephoned him. It seems the young man was in church when he was suddenly filled with an overwhelming desire to contact his father. He had been taken to another state by his mother, and she changed his name when he was a child. This is why his father was unable to locate him. Having learned from his mother that his father was an Orthodox Christian, he was able with the help of an Orthodox priest to obtain his father’s phone number in a distant city. As a result of that telephone call, the young man later visited his father, who rejoiced to see what sort of man his son had become. The father gave thanks to God and to St. Alexis for reuniting him with his son.
St Alexis was a true man of God who guided many Carpatho-Russian and Galician immigrants through the dark confusion of religious challenges in the New World and back to the unity of the Orthodox Church through his grace-filled words and by his holy example. In his last will and testament St. Alexis commended his soul to God’s mercy, asking forgiveness from everyone and forgiving everybody. His holy relics now rest at St Tikhon Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania where the faithful may come to venerate them and to entreat St. Alexis’ intercessions on their behalf.
[quote]Cream wrote:
It may be that you are too far gone along the path of Darkness to have any hope of salvation. Pride (“We have vanquished the foe, you are a heretic”), blasphemy (comparisons of your putrid sinning self to the Holy ones), false usurpations of the power of Jesus and the Father (judging others, including myself, based on very little information, when true Judgement is expressly reserved to Them), sowing discord among brothers (demaeaning other people of the Faith, driving people away from the Church.)
[/quote]
You allege I’m guilty of blasphemy. I deny this charge. It was none other than YOU who blasphemed against the Almighty when you affirmed an antichrist’s theology with the word Amen on two separate instances; the first when you condoned of pagan goddesses tearing their vulvas off for humans to devour as means of salvation, and the second when you condoned the refusal to praise a God who commands us to turn the other cheek - Jesus Christ. You friend of devils. You enemy of God.
May the Lord rebuke you.
[quote]Cream wrote:
It may be that you are too far gone along the path of Darkness to have any hope of salvation. Pride (“We have vanquished the foe, you are a heretic”), blasphemy (comparisons of your putrid sinning self to the Holy ones), false usurpations of the power of Jesus and the Father (judging others, including myself, based on very little information, when true Judgement is expressly reserved to Them), sowing discord among brothers (demaeaning other people of the Faith, driving people away from the Church.)
[/quote]
Main Entry: heretic
Function: noun
1: a dissenter from established church dogma
2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine
You attempt to stain my reputation by slandering me as being prideful because I openly professed heretics for what they truly are. Heed the definition of the word. Anyone who has deviated from the teachings and traditions of the Church which Jesus Christ established in 33 AD is a heretic. This is not my mere opinion, it is a basic fact. God has conveyed that heretics will by no means enter the kingdom of God. Go whine to your antichristian accomplice if you can’t accept this truth. You friend of devils. You enemy of God.
May the Lord rebuke you.
[quote]Cream wrote:
It may be that you are too far gone along the path of Darkness to have any hope of salvation. Pride (“We have vanquished the foe, you are a heretic”), blasphemy (comparisons of your putrid sinning self to the Holy ones), false usurpations of the power of Jesus and the Father (judging others, including myself, based on very little information, when true Judgement is expressly reserved to Them), sowing discord among brothers (demaeaning other people of the Faith, driving people away from the Church.)
[/quote]
Main Entry: judge
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): judged; judg?ing
Etymology: Middle English juggen, from Old French jugier, from Latin judicare, from judic-, judex judge, from jus right, law + dicere to decide, say – more at JUST, DICTION
transitive senses
1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
2: to sit in judgment on : TRY
3: to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation
4: GOVERN, RULE – used of a Hebrew tribal leader
5: to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about <shouldn’t judge him because of his accent>
6: to hold as an opinion : GUESS, THINK
intransitive senses
1: to form an opinion
2: to decide as a judge
You attempt to stain my reputation by slandering me in saying I’ve judged you & others. Heed the definition of the word. I’ve given no opinion of who will be in heaven and who will be in hell. My only purpose was to prove right from wrong, and I’ve accomplished this to the best of my abilities according to the teachings and traditions which Jesus Christ transmitted and as are fully preserved within the Orthodox Christian Church. I have no authority to judge because I do not know the hearts of men; God is the one who will judge you. If you are not living in the way which God has prescribed, then you’re judging and condemning YOURSELF. Instead of pulling the plank out of your own eye, you point out the speck in mine. Whereas I was here to preach theology and religious idealogies, it was YOU who made this discussion revolve around my attitude. Yet in your hypocrisy you now judge me? You friend of devils. You enemy of God.
May the Lord rebuke you.
[quote]Cream wrote:
It may be that you are too far gone along the path of Darkness to have any hope of salvation. Pride (“We have vanquished the foe, you are a heretic”), blasphemy (comparisons of your putrid sinning self to the Holy ones), false usurpations of the power of Jesus and the Father (judging others, including myself, based on very little information, when true Judgement is expressly reserved to Them), sowing discord among brothers (demaeaning other people of the Faith, driving people away from the Church.)
[/quote]
You attempt to stain my reputation by claiming that I’ve demeaned people of the Faith and driven them away from the Church. What you fail to realize is that there are only two other Orthodox Christians posting on this thread and my relationship with them is harmonious. There is Only One Truth - Orthodox Christianity. This is the Only One Faith. If anyone believes and proclaims another faith, then they are not of this Faith or believers of this Truth. If they are not of this Faith or believers of this Truth, then they are not part of the Church. They are outcasts & imposters. I haven’t demeaned anyone that abides within this Faith, Truth, and Church - Orthodox Christianity. Therefore I have not driven people away from the Church who were already thriving within it.
As far as demeaning heretics and blasphemers, I wholeheartedly admit to having done that in this thread:
Main Entry: demean
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): de?meaned; de?mean?ing
Etymology: de- + 1mean
: to lower in character, status, or reputation
The preaching of non-Orthodox Christians has been proven to be sheer folly. In this way, their character, status, and reputation has been decimated.
[quote]stellar_horizon
b[/b] Your interpretations of scripture seemed reasonable, but so did ours. The difference is that the interpretations we provided you with are in accordance with those of the early Church.
Bonus points for Orthodox Christians.
Fishlips wrote:
No your ideas certainly are not reasonable. You claimed to use ‘common sense’ and ‘reason’ also but I beg to differ. Just when these two attributes become MOST CRITICAL to use is when you throw them out the window in order to promote and accept your ‘mystical’ ideas. Your every post proves these to be foreign attributes to you.
[/quote]
While oral traditions and Apostolic teachings professed the mystical side of the Christian Faith which was scantly expressed via written format some decades after it blossomed, you continue to refuse any identification with the mystical idealogies of the early Christian Church. Not a problem for me. If it’s what you believe, it’s what you believe. I’ll perservere in the teachings of the original Christian Church though - Orthodox Christianity (est. 33 AD).
You keep guessing and arguing your reason and common sense amongst all the other 30,000 Bible-thumping heretical sects in the world today. For 1,500 years Christians embraced the mystical theology mertdawg and I have preached. According to you, most of the billions of Bible-venerating humans alive before the Reformation were without reason or common sense. If it’s what you believe, it’s what you believe.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
b[/b] The holy traditions and beliefs which you deny (such as Apostolic succession, the Eucharist, the Holy Trinity) were practiced and taught by the early Church, yet you falsely claim they were not. How do we know? I posted authentic early Church manuscripts as proof.
Bonus points for Orthodox Christians.
Fishlips wrote:
Let’s see:
A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church:
“A clearly formulated doctrinal position in contrast to Arianism was taken up by a minority only, although this minority carried the day.”
[/quote]
God works wonders doesn’t He? A minority (twelve mere fishermen) spread the true Christian Faith. Again a minority (the Orthodox Christian Church) preserved the true Christian Faith despite the damnable heresies which flourished in that day.
All glory to God!