Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
422

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Does you friend know who Allah was/is? Allah was one of the numerous gods of the Arabian pagans. The Arabs were polytheists before Christianity or Islam came along. Mohammed prayed to a statue dedicated to Allah and one of his prayers was answered. He then decided to go around smashing every statue of the other deities and proclaimed that Allah was the true god and that these Arab pagans should now exclusively worship Allah or be put to death.[/quote]

A question: How did it happen that his prayer was answered by Allah if Allah was simply a statue of a pagan god?

Isn’t God the only one who can fullfil prayers?

I’d like to know how you went from believer to atheist and back to believer.

I can respect that choice. Most believers simply keep the faith that’s been handed down to them and never question; never ask “why this one?” and never take any time to study their faith and others.

How they can be so adamantly convinced of the “rightness” of their particular faith is a mystery.

That’s always the cop out.

Whenever something appears as flawed or erroneous; the flaw or error is always man’s.

It does not follow that a perfect God would create such a flawed man and then expect him to perform beyond his flaws.

[quote]Why is it so difficult to learn about early Church history? I’ve got a psychology degree and am entering into a state law enforcement agency. I’ve worked in the social service industry during my entire professional career. My passion is weight-training and fitness. I’m no theology major. Yet I’ve managed to find the time during the last 8 years to research and expand my knowledge on the Christian faith, its origins, its earliest teachings, and practices. Be seeking is Christ’s command. How well have we all sought is the question…

Or would you rather prefer that God wipes away all other Christian denominations from the face of the planet so that Orthodox Christianity can brightly shine as the beacon of Christian Truth? Should the annihilation of millions of Christians occur so that God can save you? In this regard, why shouldn’t God wipe away every other religious group that preaches heresy or blasphemes? [/quote]

There’s a middle ground between wiping out most of humanity and being unable to send a clear message.

Simply make it obvious which is the right church. The message should stand out.

Since none stand outs; I do not find it unreasonable to reject them all and conclude that god is simply an invention of man to explain away the unknowns.

You say you spent 8 years researching the history of the early church and found your faith. How can you be sure that you’ve found the right one? You didn’t spend as many years exploring all the other options, so isn’t your conclusion in haste?

Some theologians have spent a much greater part of theirs lives studying many more faiths. If your path was somehow “special” or more “right”, shouldn’t we expect to have a higher amount of Orthodox theologians that of other faiths? It is not logical that someone would find the true church of God and choose to remain in his original false faith… Since theologians from every faith exist and stay in their respective faith, again I see nothing unreasonable in assuming that no faith is particularly special.

If God created man, any problem with man is God’s fault.

Patience is also a weird trait for an eternal being.

[quote]If you can possibly find the time:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/page6.htm[/quote]

I’ve bookmarked it for later. It better not be filled with bold text. :slight_smile:

423

[quote]doogie wrote:
Really? So then I’m in Hell right now? This is as bad as it gets? Sweet. Pascal was a moron.

Of course if that is the Orthodox belief, then why did the pellet gun say:

“The maggots will devour your flesh, as the demons drag your soul into the bowels of the abyss.”

What is this abyss full of demons if not Hell?[/quote]
First of all doogie, I’m the Tank, mertdawg is the Machine Gun, pkradgreek is the Sniper… Anyways, I was speaking metaphorically.
pkradgreek is right though. The Roman Catholics developed the concept of hell as being an actual place with demons holding pitchforks. The Protestants inherited this concept from the Franco-Latins since this was their mother church before the Reformation. Protestants stripped away some of the heresies and traditions (although sadly even Apostolic traditions too) of the Roman Catholic faith but still held on to some heretical concepts.

Hell is a condition of the soul which is not sufficiently cured of its spiritual maladies and comes into union with God’s infinite love. If you think you’re in hell now, think again. It only gets worse in the Second Coming when God’s energies are no longer inhibited from being cast upon creation.

424

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
I guess that’s it. I would venture a guess that this might have been one of the longest running threads on T-Nation.(?)[/quote]

Nah, the original V-Diet thread had way more posts, like ~35 pages worth. We still have lots of debating to do though so who knows, maybe we’ll catch up.

425

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Matthew9v9 wrote:
Please do not be offended at this statement, but Orthodox Christianity is not a denomination but a Faith directly passed down to mankind from Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Men are either inside the Body of Christ or outside of it. The Orthodox Christian Church preserves this Faith and all its practices, teachings, and traditions.
[/quote]

denomination P Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

426

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?

You just won’t let me get to bed now, will you?

I’m just gonna say it straight. The Greek word ‘Hades’ translated poorly as hell, does not mean a place of punishment. It simply meant ‘death’, your grave. He was kicked out of heaven and confined to the ‘vicinity of the earth’ in Revelation. He hasn’t been destroyed yet, but is being allowed to exist for ‘a little while.’ Psalms
Hell is another pagan idea adopted by the early deviant churches.[/quote]

If you missed it before, what does Isaiah mean when he says: Hell was embittered when it met thee face to face?

427

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?

You just won’t let me get to bed now, will you?

I’m just gonna say it straight. The Greek word ‘Hades’ translated poorly as hell, does not mean a place of punishment. It simply meant ‘death’, your grave. He was kicked out of heaven and confined to the ‘vicinity of the earth’ in Revelation. He hasn’t been destroyed yet, but is being allowed to exist for ‘a little while.’ Psalms
Hell is another pagan idea adopted by the early deviant churches.[/quote]

We actually believe that hell is God’s uncreated light which in the end will consume all the impure material of the universe. Do you want to know what that has to do with E=mc^2.

428

Why is it that those subdivisions of Christianity which claim the most literal interpretation of the bible have the most denomonations, while those that allow for holy tradition outside of the bible have oneness of beliefs?

429

[quote]pookie wrote:
A question: How did it happen that his prayer was answered by Allah if Allah was simply a statue of a pagan god?

Isn’t God the only one who can fullfil prayers?[/quote]
Demons can facilitate that certain prayers be answered. They also have the power to work miracles. Only God in His infinite wisdom knows why.

People involved in the occult such as black magic will vouch that they can summon dark spiritual forces to harm others. This is very real, but the Orthodox Christian understanding is that they’re summoning demons. I guess that if someone is so disengaged from Christ, that God will allow that person to continue falling into delusive beliefs. The demons can attack men via thought or bodily harm. Perhaps Mohammed was so disengaged from Christ.

Interesting to note, Mohammed’s family, especially his mother, reported that he was possessed by demons as a young boy. His nanny also thought the same. Mohammed also had persistent visions from angels in his life to commit suicide by plunging himself off a cliff. He would go to the edge of this cliff and look down before an angel would appear before him, mocking him in absurd laughter and tell him to forget the plot. That angel would command him at a later time to commit suicide again, toying with Mohammed’s emotions. Again, these angels were fallen angels - demons. Even when writing the Koran, he said he was inspired by angels.

St. Paul warns Christians to challenge the angels that may appear before us, ie. to test them before accepting that they’re of God, because they may actually be demons in disguise. I doubt Mohammed did any such thing.

430

[quote]Croooz wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
Matthew9v9 wrote:
Please do not be offended at this statement, but Orthodox Christianity is not a denomination but a Faith directly passed down to mankind from Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Men are either inside the Body of Christ or outside of it. The Orthodox Christian Church preserves this Faith and all its practices, teachings, and traditions.

denomination P Pronunciation Key (d-nm-nshn)
n.
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.[/quote]

Thanks Croooz. Exactly - Protestant denominations do not share a common faith with the Orthodox Christian Church aside from preaching that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, which even the devil acknowledges. The Orthodox Church is a separate entity all together.

The Bible doesn’t say 30,000 faiths, one Lord.
The Bible says one Faith, one Lord.

Peace be with you.

431

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
First of all doogie, I’m the Tank, mertdawg is the Machine Gun, pkradgreek is the Sniper… Anyways, I was speaking metaphorically.[/quote]

Why a metaphor of weapons? You talk about a God of infinite love, end some of your messages with “peace be with you”; yet the metaphor you choose for yourself and your comrades in faith is one of weapons. Tools designed to kill men quickly and efficiently.

432

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’d like to know how you went from believer to atheist and back to believer.[/quote]

In the beginning I was excited by the scriptures, Judgment Day, the end of the world, heaven/hell. Then I fell away because of some misfortunate events. I can’t really say how I got back up for sure. A 30-second empty prayer every now and then at first, but then these started to have meaning of some sort. No matter how much I previously wanted to avoid theological discussion, I suddenly would get stirred up inside and wanted to get involved, like some folks here. When I fell away, God was the last thing I wanted anyone talking to me about, but as I emotionally healed from previous misfortunes, I became more open to dialogue and what people had to say. It was a gradual process of questioning everything I’d known in the past and starting from square one again. I don’t mind though, as this has made me stronger spiritually. Kind of like a bone that breaks. When it fully heals, it only gets that much stronger.

Peace be with you.

433

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
God does’t fail - humans do.
pookie wrote:
That’s always the cop out.

Whenever something appears as flawed or erroneous; the flaw or error is always man’s.

It does not follow that a perfect God would create such a flawed man and then expect him to perform beyond his flaws.[/quote]

In the beginning, God created Adam & Eve perfectly in His image. Then Adam & Eve brought about the Fall and introduced flaws into creation. Humans, except for Saints, continue to exist in this fallen state. God didn’t encourage Adam or Eve to eat from the Tree of knowledge of good & evil before their time, but Lucifer did. Some Christians hail this as a metaphorical account, while others do not. I simply ask you to bear with it:

Adam & Eve would’ve been able to eat from the Tree of knowledge of good & evil when the time was right, and then afterwards, they would’ve been able to eat from the Tree of Life. The bottom line is that they were deceived by the devil and ate prematurely from a substance they could not handle. In God’s infinite love, He cast them out of Paradise for their own good. In Paradise, Adam & Eve were enjoying union with God’s uncreated energies. When they sinned the first sin, these uncreated energies were like tormenting fires to them, so God in His love cast them out. Like a baby that eats softly mashed carrots can not be fed a piece of steak, so too Adam & Eve could not bear to eat from the Tree of knowledge of good & evil. They would have died spiritually (as a baby would choke) if God in His love did not cast them out of Paradise.

That’s why in Orthodox Christianity it is translated that God said, “If you eat from this Tree, you shall die” rather than how Western Christianity teaches, “If you eat from this Tree, I will kill you”.

It all goes back to the beginning. Jesus Christ came to uplift man from the state of spiritual death. All His warnings to us, His commands, His laws, His preaching, the traditions He passed on, were to spiritually uplift us so that in the Second Coming, we won’t be tormented by His uncreating energies (ie. infinite love, grace, power). It is our duty to become perfected in His image so that we may abide within His love blissfully and not be tormented by it.

Peace be with you.

434

[quote]pookie wrote:
Why a metaphor of weapons? You talk about a God of infinite love, end some of your messages with “peace be with you”; yet the metaphor you choose for yourself and your comrades in faith is one of weapons. Tools designed to kill men quickly and efficiently.[/quote]

It’s a reference started 5-10 pages ago. In doogie’s post, he calls me a “pellet gun” in contrast to what someone previously compared me to because I kept spitting out quotes and commentary in an unceasing manner. In that sense, my strongpoints were blowing up and shooting down various heresies on the Christian faith.

Peace be with you.

435

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

We actually believe that hell is God’s uncreated light which in the end will consume all the impure material of the universe. Do you want to know what that has to do with E=mc^2.
[/quote]

Uncreated light?

436

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
He was kicked out of heaven and confined to the ‘vicinity of the earth’ in Revelation.[/quote]

Like on the moon? Or do you mean actually on Earth?

437

[quote]pookie wrote:
You say you spent 8 years researching the history of the early church and found your faith. How can you be sure that you’ve found the right one? You didn’t spend as many years exploring all the other options, so isn’t your conclusion in haste?[/quote]
I started out by reading the Bible on my own at the counsel of a friend. Then I started researching Protestant groups. Then I researched early Church history and came to worship as an Orthodox Christian. My conclusion was not in haste, as I firmly believe in the Lord & Savior Jesus Christ and all the things He spoke, the miracles He conceived, and the way He lived His life. Having complete faith in Him, I submit to the authority of His Church, the same Church which He established in 33 AD.

[quote]

Some theologians have spent a much greater part of theirs lives studying many more faiths. If your path was somehow “special” or more “right”, shouldn’t we expect to have a higher amount of Orthodox theologians that of other faiths? It is not logical that someone would find the true church of God and choose to remain in his original false faith… Since theologians from every faith exist and stay in their respective faith, again I see nothing unreasonable in assuming that no faith is particularly special.[/quote]

If someone believes in Allah, then they’ll study Islam more aggressively than Christianity. If someone believes in Jesus Christ, they’ll study more Christianity than Hinduism, etc. That’s a given.

The rules/regulations/guidelines of Christianity are the toughest ones to abide by. So for people who welcome a life of persecution, suffering, and internal battles, Orthodox Christianity is for them. Most people shy away from these challenges and want to go about life as they please, blaming every other creature in the world for the dismal state of creation. Christianity teaches that change begins with the individual on the deepest of microcosmic levels.

The Orthodox Christian St. Seraphim of Sarov says:
 “Save your soul and you save a thousand souls around you”.

Regarding theologians, it’s not the quantity of them throughout the world, but the quality. In Orthodox Christianity, one who is considered a true theologian is not one who’s studied the rudiments and principles of God, but one’s who’s truly living and applying them. If you need examples of Orthodox Christian theologians, take a brief look on my thread marked Orthodox Christian Saints. The world has known thousands of Orthodox Christian theologians since 33 AD.

On a related note, academically-speaking, Orthodox Christian theologians are not as common in America as they are in other lands, chiefly because of funding issues and the dominant religions here being of chiefly western roots. The English who colonized America were of Protesant roots (ie. Quakers, Puritans). Most universities in America don’t even have Orthodox Christian Studies departments. Good luck getting a degree in America on this Faith!

Roman Catholics go through years of parochial schools and confess they’ve never been taught about the Orthodox Christian Faith. Why? Are they afraid of losing their faithful? Most Protestants have no clue of what it means to be an Orthodox Christian or our dogmas or doctrines. Why? Over the computer alone, many have pm’ed me to give details on the Faith confessing they’ve never heard about it. Perhaps we should run commercials like the Latter Day Saints and hand out pamphlets on the trains & buses like the Baptists. Funny how the new Pope of Rome gets so much air time but the Patriarchs of Orthodox Christianity throughout the world get zero coverage. Nice of our media to do that ain’t it?

Anyways, if you go to Europe and the Middle East as well as some other regions where Christianity originated, you’ll discover that the notion of a Roman Catholic or Protestant theologian is a paradox.

Peace be with you.

438

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why is it that those subdivisions of Christianity which claim the most literal interpretation of the bible have the most denomonations, while those that allow for holy tradition outside of the bible have oneness of beliefs?[/quote]

mertdawg, I’m 99.9% convinced you ask this in a rhetorical fashion. I’ll answer it according to my opinion: because heresy means to be in false teaching and false teaching is inspired by the devil. As harsh as it may be for some Christians to accept this, that’s the simple truth. Holy tradition is hailed as such because its source is Divine. Taking the Bible out of context by trying to apply it outside the framework of the Church in which it was produced and compiled is a tragedy; sadly that’s what the Protestants do. They splinter off because each one tries to discover a truth their previous sect wasn’t successful in finding. This is a sign that these sects do not exist in the fullness of Truth in Christ, the fullness in Christ to which all Christians are called.

In Orthodox Christianity, there’s no need to re-analyze and reform because the Faith is perfect exactly the way it is handed down - according to the teachings of the Apostles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Today we have in excess of 30,000 different Protestant sects. That’s 30,000 sects each believing the Bible in its own fashion. All of them for some reason or other avoiding the tradition of interpretation of the Orthodox Christian Church which itself produced and compiled the Bible. I have never been given a legitimate excuse by any Protestant why they won’t heed to the Orthodox Christian interpretation. Perhaps it’s because of the inner pride of man which seeks glory and not unity by trying to stand out from the crowd. The same pride which would rather create the 30,001st sect of Christianity instead of submitting to the faith of the Orthodox Christian Church. Before Protestants continue to splinter further and further away from Truth, they must ask themselves what would be more righteous in God’s sight? Following the Church which He established in 33 AD or veering off and starting a new church with different interpretations/practices which may bring earthly, temporal glory to the originator. Today we have so-called Protestant churches estranged so far from the Truth, that they preach not Christ, but a phenomenon called Christ consciousness, some new age bullsh*t.

Had a Pentecostal friend who was on his way to being ordained by his congregation. Me and another Orthodox brother counseled him as to the errors of his faith. He knew of early Church history but did not think that old traditions (which he was raised without experiencing) were vital to the Christian Life. It is this tone which marks danger. Rationalizing the need for certain practices like holy communion, confession, etc. and deviating from the teachings of the early Church was not a problem for him. Of’ course, he later posted an e-mail to my friend that he may have been wrong, but now that he was a minister, this would be his career and could not change his message to his flock. What glory it would bring if he suddenly announced to them one Sunday morning that he was converting to Orthodox Christianity! In fear of losing his position of authority, this will probably never occur. He will retain his heresy because it pays the bills, he gets his glory, and because he doesn’t think he’s damned for not partaking in the fullness of the Christian Life available to him. And so the story goes…

Peace be with you.

439

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
There are many others ideas that are put forth as sine qua non also that have no basis in scripture. Why would the bible speak of a resurrection if we never really died? This subject is a biggie. Virtually everyone the world over, religious and non-religious, has some measure of belief in a part of us that lives on after death. The bible teaches no such thing. The original understanding of the soul was not as something seperate from the body. It IS the living creature, animal or man. You ARE a soul. Again, an immortal soul is a pagan idea adopted by the early deviating churches. Now this is not to say once we die that’s it for eternity. But if we are to live again, either in heaven or on earth, it is only because God gives us life again. It is understood that our consciousness, our thoughts - who we are - is simply made up of cells, chemicals, neurotransmitters and electricity.(without getting into quantum physics, basically physical things yeah, yeah I know electricity isn’t physical but let’s not get into semantics) We once did not exist and we go back to that state. Gen. 3:19 ‘For dust you are and to dust you will return.’ Imagine that! Over 3500 years ago, Moses knew exactly what we know today. We are made up of elements of the earth and that’s about it. The only way we may live again, is if God makes us again. Just like Job asked ‘If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?’ Job 14:14. We were made once, He can do it again. (He doesn’t have a hand in making every person, he put a process of life in place that perpetuates itself)For those who will be in heaven they are made again in another form. I guess kinda like water going from liquid to gas. Same individual, different form.
[/quote]

What you’re preaching is reincarnation. You’re saying that the soul of man is not immortal by God’s grace and that we fade away into non-existence only to be resuscitated into another creature which may or may not be human. That’s heresy! It was never taught that way by the Apostles or by Jesus Christ. In fact, if you review the scriptures on Lazarus and the wealthy man, it was said that the wealthy man was suffering after death even though his body was 6-feet under.

You definitely don’t belong to the Orthodox Christian Church, so why in the world do you accept the Bible as being divinely inspired? The Orthodox Christian Church has never taught any of the things you’re posting here, but you prize their writings as being sufficient for a righteous living? I’m quite baffled. The more you post, the further you alienate yourself from anything Christian, yet you hail a Christian guide as being the sole object of authority on faith… That’s not very reasonable now is it?

440

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
In the beginning, God created Adam & Eve perfectly in His image. Then Adam & Eve brought about the Fall and introduced flaws into creation. Humans, except for Saints, continue to exist in this fallen state. God didn’t encourage Adam or Eve to eat from the Tree of knowledge of good & evil before their time, but Lucifer did.[/quote]

One thing bothers me about this tale. If Eve, having not yet eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, didn’t yet know good from evil, how could she resist Lucifer? How was she to know that disobeying God was wrong (evil) and that rejecting Lucifer was the right (good) thing to do?

A purely innocent being (or whatever term you wish to apply to one who knows not good from evil) is not able to understand a moral choice correctly. One who cannot know good from evil cannot be expected to make “good” decisions. Any choice presented would appear morally equivalent, and choice would simply be by random whim.

441

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
I started out by reading the Bible on my own at the counsel of a friend.[/quote]

I’ve noticed that their are different “versions” of the Bible. Which one should one read?

I ask because when searching for certain passages on the internet, it is not uncommon to find a verse that has two or three different wordings; sometimes with subtle nuances.

If I understand correctly, you were originally Protestant, presumably because your family had been Protestant. Have they followed you in the Orthodox faith?

Can you list those guidelines and why they’re so tought to abide by?

I’m also curious as to what persecutions you endure.

It is also possible for people to come to accept personal responsibility for their actions without needing “divine inspiration” to do so.

You can go through life “as you please” but still be an ethical and moral person. “As you please” would simply refer to not subjecting yourself to celebrations, restrictions or guidelines that have no meaning except that they’re traditions.

[quote]Christianity teaches that change begins with the individual on the deepest of microcosmic levels.

The Orthodox Christian St. Seraphim of Sarov says:
 “Save your soul and you save a thousand souls around you”. [/quote]

Many other faiths, thinkers and philosopher have long proposed the same thing.

The true islamic jihad is “an internal struggle.” The teachings of Buddhism are also oriented on the self.

Could it be that your church is (too) hard to find?