[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Question for consideration till I return: Does the bible teach that God knows everything ahead of time?
Discuss…[/quote]
I’m not really sure what “ahead of time” means for God as he is outside time. Before we get into the bible here, I think we need to agree on what ahead of time does mean. I’m sorry but I’ll have to resort to quantum physics again. Here, ALL physical possibilities are abstractly real, but humans make choices that put them into one of them. He sees all possible future outcomes to be as real as any other. He sees you make one choice as well as the other because his knowledge IS the laws of physics, but physics (in my interpretation of the role of sentience in quantum physics) is not deterministic.
I guess I would say that he sees the universe, beginning, middle and end all at once, but that doesn’t mean that the end can not change.
I believe that the Isrealites could have chosen to enter the promised land, in MIGHT have actually entered the kingdom of heaven. If this wasn’t possible then God would be a liar.
I also believe that God can work backwards through time. For example, I have doubts that he will let anyone suffer eternally. One conclusion is that those who are not united to the kingdom of heaven will have never existed although they exist now.
Not, sure. Depends on the difference in the meaning of Kairos and Chronos.
Fishlips, here’s one for you. Not the end all, but more of a question or challenge.
Idioms contain more truth than the words from which they are composed. Therefore they require interpretation. Now the word Logos we agree means Jesus, but I would argue that this word is an idiom which requires interpretation. Now, I said we agree on the base meaning, but the word was clearly borrowed from a Greek Pagan philosophy because John wanted to speak to contextualize. Was it inspired by God? Well you’ve stated that God did not inspire the Pagans, and yet we know that it originated with them and furthermore understand why John included it. Since the term was not inspired by God according to your premise, then how can we claim that it stands for Jesus WITHOUT interpretation?
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I’m not really sure what “ahead of time” means for God as he is outside time. Before we get into the bible here, I think we need to agree on what ahead of time does mean.[/quote]
Because God is generally described as omniscient, it is usually assumed that his omniscience includes “knowing” the future.
You have to be careful with quantum physics. What you’re saying is called “the Copenhagen interpretation” and while it is the most popular interpretation or quantum theory, it is not the only one. The fact that it denies an objective reality (ie, the observer “causes” his reality) is problematic on many levels.
Interesting…
[quote]I guess I would say that he sees the universe, beginning, middle and end all at once, but that doesn’t mean that the end can not change.
I believe that the Isrealites could have chosen to enter the promised land, in MIGHT have actually entered the kingdom of heaven. If this wasn’t possible then God would be a liar.
I also believe that God can work backwards through time. For example, I have doubts that he will let anyone suffer eternally.[/quote]
Seems a bit harsh. Why not simply end their existence?
[quote]One conclusion is that those who are not united to the kingdom of heaven will have never existed although they exist now.
Not, sure. Depends on the difference in the meaning of Kairos and Chronos.
[/quote]
[quote]pookie wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
True. Then again to believe a single word anyone or anything says that’s not obviously apparent requires you have a good reason to believe them/it i.e. why should I believe the bible?
Ideally, we’d find a common ground where were both in agreement, and work from there.
Interesting way of looking at it. Unfortunately being at work I can’t confirm my memory is completely accurate but I do remember the people of that city were somewhat united in their efforts to build a tower to the heavens
It’s not like they would’ve reached “the heavens” anyway. Even with modern engineering, the CN Tower in Toronto is less than 2,000 feet.[/quote]
The heavens would often simply refer to the atmosphere. Think of the ‘fish of the sea and flying creatures of the heavens’ Genesis refers to at creation. The point of building a tall building is that religious structures, even to this day, were always built in conspicuous high places and/or of tall architecture. The Israelites were often accused of worshipping in the ‘high places’ when they apostasized from God. It’s a pagan tradition carried on in the spires of today’s churches.
[quote]
(don’t know what they were thinking, will research more details later). To think of current events, if a core of insurgents were found working together in Iraq would it be best to leave them together or scatter them?(I know you will say to do something much worse…)
Well, from their point of view, they’re trying to rid their nation of infidel invaders. But I don’t have a solution for Iraq; at this point it’s probably better to stay the course and hope that with elections, a consitution and an elected government, they won’t fall back to being a dictatorship or a an islamic theocracy like Iran.
Capture the insurgents, put them in jail and give them fair trials (ie, not a charia law tribunal). That’s the model we’d like them to emulate.
Probably a pathetic illustration but it comes to mind at the moment. Scripture speaks of no one in that city having the ‘right idea’. Again, I’ll reacquaint myself with the account when I get home.
It seems to me to be more of a convenient story to answer those who question the proliferation of religions.[/quote]
I actually meant the Iraq illustration was pathetic.
[quote]
Instead of saying, “Well, religions are the invention of men, nothing more.” the clergy can say “All those religions are God’s Will. Read this story about Babel and the hubris of mankind and see the fate that awaits those who question the faith…”[/quote]
No, the proliferation of religions was not God’s will. They were scattered because of their rebellious ideas and construction project of the ziggurat. God certainly has not introduced all this confusion to mankind. The very ‘I’m right!’ ‘No, I’m right!’ juvenile arguing you rail against exists because(according to the bible)Satan inspired his own ideas in man in his intention to mislead. Worked pretty well don’t you think?
There are many others ideas that are put forth as sine qua non also that have no basis in scripture. Why would the bible speak of a resurrection if we never really died? This subject is a biggie. Virtually everyone the world over, religious and non-religious, has some measure of belief in a part of us that lives on after death. The bible teaches no such thing. The original understanding of the soul was not as something seperate from the body. It IS the living creature, animal or man. You ARE a soul. Again, an immortal soul is a pagan idea adopted by the early deviating churches. Now this is not to say once we die that’s it for eternity. But if we are to live again, either in heaven or on earth, it is only because God gives us life again. It is understood that our consciousness, our thoughts - who we are - is simply made up of cells, chemicals, neurotransmitters and electricity.(without getting into quantum physics, basically physical things yeah, yeah I know electricity isn’t physical but let’s not get into semantics) We once did not exist and we go back to that state. Gen. 3:19 ‘For dust you are and to dust you will return.’ Imagine that! Over 3500 years ago, Moses knew exactly what we know today. We are made up of elements of the earth and that’s about it. The only way we may live again, is if God makes us again. Just like Job asked ‘If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?’ Job 14:14. We were made once, He can do it again. (He doesn’t have a hand in making every person, he put a process of life in place that perpetuates itself)For those who will be in heaven they are made again in another form. I guess kinda like water going from liquid to gas. Same individual, different form.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips, here’s one for you. Not the end all, but more of a question or challenge.
Idioms contain more truth than the words from which they are composed. Therefore they require interpretation. Now the word Logos we agree means Jesus, but I would argue that this word is an idiom which requires interpretation. Now, I said we agree on the base meaning, but the word was clearly borrowed from a Greek Pagan philosophy because John wanted to speak to contextualize. Was it inspired by God? Well you’ve stated that God did not inspire the Pagans, and yet we know that it originated with them and furthermore understand why John included it. Since the term was not inspired by God according to your premise, then how can we claim that it stands for Jesus WITHOUT interpretation?
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Fishlips wrote:
Question for consideration till I return: Does the bible teach that God knows everything ahead of time?
Discuss…
I’m not really sure what “ahead of time” means for God as he is outside time. Before we get into the bible here, I think we need to agree on what ahead of time does mean. I’m sorry but I’ll have to resort to quantum physics again. Here, ALL physical possibilities are abstractly real, but humans make choices that put them into one of them. He sees all possible future outcomes to be as real as any other. He sees you make one choice as well as the other because his knowledge IS the laws of physics, but physics (in my interpretation of the role of sentience in quantum physics) is not deterministic.[/quote]
Mert, mert, mert…you’re killing me here. Your reply is interesting though in that it basically says you don’t believe God has your destiny written out for you. We’re on the same track as far as God CAN know the future but doesn’t set it. To an extreme degree it’s kinda like an old married couple who pretty much know exactly what the other is going to do or say in a particular situation.
Some of that got a little weird in there but I just wanna leave you with a couple scriptures to mentally chew on. Extol be sure to check these out too. Gen. 18:20,21 ‘Consequently Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod’om and Go?mor’rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. ?I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.’ God did not know and told Abraham he would go investigate. ‘Determined to go down’ would not mean He must come to earth somehow to check things out like he can’t see what’s happening from heaven, but rather he would turn his attention to the matter.
Also Gen. 22:12 when God had his angel interrupt Abraham before he killed Isaac, ‘Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.’ Again, God did not know what Abraham would do in this test. But the bible is clear about God’s ability to know the future when it says, ‘I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.’ Isa 46:9,10. So what gives?
Evidently God chooses when to use this ability. You could be a fantastically strong powerlifter. Does that mean you have to lift every heavy object you are capable of?
I’d like to hear some feedback on this. Like I won’t get it eh? Also, how does this account of Abraham and Isaac relate to Jehovah and Jesus?
You guys are some damn smart dudes on this thread.
[quote]doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?[/quote]
And how is he able to father children here on earth? I’d swear I was married to his daughter for five years until I snapped out of it and got the hell out of there.
[quote]doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?[/quote]
You just won’t let me get to bed now, will you?
I’m just gonna say it straight. The Greek word ‘Hades’ translated poorly as hell, does not mean a place of punishment. It simply meant ‘death’, your grave. He was kicked out of heaven and confined to the ‘vicinity of the earth’ in Revelation. He hasn’t been destroyed yet, but is being allowed to exist for ‘a little while.’ Psalms
Hell is another pagan idea adopted by the early deviant churches.
[quote]doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?[/quote]
Hell is not a physical place. this is something the franco latins made up. Hell is a feeling because you are not ready to be in communion with God. laters pk
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?
And how is he able to father children here on earth? I’d swear I was married to his daughter for five years until I snapped out of it and got the hell out of there.
[/quote]
satan fathers children on earth because humans refuse to follow the ways of Our Lord Jesus Christ. laters pk
on a lighter note, S+P downgraded both Ford and General Motors debt rating to junk status. This caused a massive sell of in the equity markets. Treasury Bonds prices rose on those fears. laters pk
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
pukie, as God is infallible, so is His Church. There is only one path to heaven, and that path is expressed in the Orthodox Christian Church. pookie wrote:
A good friend of mine, who is muslim, also claims that God is infallible (although he calls him “Allah”) and claims the the only true path to salvation is expressed in the Quoran.
[/quote]Does you friend know who Allah was/is? Allah was one of the numerous gods of the Arabian pagans. The Arabs were polytheists before Christianity or Islam came along. Mohammed prayed to a statue dedicated to Allah and one of his prayers was answered. He then decided to go around smashing every statue of the other deities and proclaimed that Allah was the true god and that these Arab pagans should now exclusively worship Allah or be put to death.
Mohammed also wrote the hadith which says that Jesus Christ was a greater prophet than himself, contrary to what he’d been preaching his entire life to pagans converting to Islam. Now, faith is faith. I can’t tell the Muslim WHY his faith is wrong, but I can only point him to the values of his faith as well as its roots to show him if this is what he truly believes. Things like jihad (holy wars) are openly expressed in the Koran… Kill the infidels wherever you find them, etc. Although the Roman Catholics waged the Crusades and the Inquisition, you won’t find anything advocating these actions in the Bible nor in the Orthodox Christian Church. Those were the evils of men and not the expressions of the Christian God. There’s obviously a drastic difference between what the Muslim god teaches in the Koran and what the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ.
[quote]pookie wrote:
You’ll claim he’s following a false God, that he’s deceived and that unless he accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he simply cannot be “saved”.
That’s all good and well, but since you’re an Orthodox Christian because your parents where Orthodox Christians and raised you in that faith and he’s muslim because, and this might come as a surprise, he was born in a muslim family, who is right?[/quote]
I’ve been a Protestant in my life as well as an atheist. Needless to say, I’m now an Orthodox Christian. I’ve gone through my own transformations and soul-searching. I refuse to believe in a half-hearted fashion or simply because I was born into a faith or culture. Your friend should do the same. But oh wait, according to the Koran, he can’t. In Islam if you convert away from the religion, you must be executed. Now being that murder (if he lives in America) won’t be a practical pursuit, his Muslim family & friends will surely disown him. That’s an added stressor that I don’t have as a Christian. I’m free to go as I please purely because of my faith and not because of external influence or pressure. If I didn’t truly believe in Christianity, I would not be forced to remain a Christian.
[quote] pookie wrote:
He’s no less convinced of being absolutely and without a doubt RIGHT about his convictions; the same as you.
And the world over, billions of people of thousands of different faith (99.99% of them of the faith their parents held, I’d bet) are devout and completely convinced of the “rightness” of their beliefs.
It seems to me that a perfect, infallible God would find a better way to inspire man than to allow such a proliferation of religions. If there really was “One Truth”, wouldn’t that truth be so compelling that men would find themselves unable to resist it?
As it is, you need churches and clergy and a whole bureaucratic apparatus just to try and preserve whatever version of God you imagine is the right one; as do all other religions.
How can your infallible God fail so miserably at the simple task of SHOWING ALL MEN which fucking church IS THE RIGHT ONE?![/quote] God does’t fail - humans do. Why is it so difficult to learn about early Church history? I’ve got a psychology degree and am entering into a state law enforcement agency. I’ve worked in the social service industry during my entire professional career. My passion is weight-training and fitness. I’m no theology major. Yet I’ve managed to find the time during the last 8 years to research and expand my knowledge on the Christian faith, its origins, its earliest teachings, and practices. Be seeking is Christ’s command. How well have we all sought is the question…
Or would you rather prefer that God wipes away all other Christian denominations from the face of the planet so that Orthodox Christianity can brightly shine as the beacon of Christian Truth? Should the annihilation of millions of Christians occur so that God can save you? In this regard, why shouldn’t God wipe away every other religious group that preaches heresy or blasphemes?
God hopes for all men to be saved by coming to His Truth. He is patient with humanity and gives us time to learn and adjust. He bestows His grace upon us so that we will be open-hearted and willing to receive His message. The problem is not God - the problem is with man.
[quote]Matthew9v9 wrote:
I am fallible. If I am in error and you are not, please pray for me and, I believe the Lord will have mercy on me and direct me to your denomination.
[/quote]
Please do not be offended at this statement, but Orthodox Christianity is not a denomination but a Faith directly passed down to mankind from Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Men are either inside the Body of Christ or outside of it. The Orthodox Christian Church preserves this Faith and all its practices, teachings, and traditions.
I have prayed for you and will continue to do so. Do not be dissuaded by my style which is often quite jagged and not as gentle as it should be - that’s my personal sin. I’m sure if my spiritual father read some of my posts, I’d be reprimanded for not preaching in a more loving manner. Although some non-Christians have provoked me against doing so, I will try harder to preach with a softer tone. Also, I wouldn’t say “peace be with you” if I didn’t mean it.
[quote]Cream wrote:
On a related note, capitalization, grammar, and upper body workouts are important.
This just in, hot off the press! “Laters” is not a word![/quote]
Remember Bruce Lee in “Enter the Dragon”? One of his students who wanted to learn kung-fu was staring at Lee’s finger while Lee was pointing to the sky. You remind me of that student Cream. You miss pkradgreek’s message by commenting on his grammar, capitalization, etc. And out of all the posts you’ve written, they seem quite shallow and irrelevant (almost leading me to believe you have absolutely no knowledge of the topic at hand), in stark contrast to pkradgreek’s posts.
And before you criticize his upper body, I think a 365 lb bench press for reps isn’t too shabby. Neither are 75 lb dbell curls for reps with strict form. I’ve been there to witness these feats of his. He’s aiming for a 400 lb bench by the end of the summer and I personally think he can do it. With your personal attack, I think you’re jealous of his knowledge on theology as well as his body.
Anyways Cream, stick to the topic or stay out of it. Thanks.
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
doogie wrote:
So how did Satan get out of hell? Why is he able to roam around and wreak havoc if God defeated him?
Hell is not a physical place. this is something the franco latins made up. Hell is a feeling because you are not ready to be in communion with God. laters pk[/quote]
Really? So then I’m in Hell right now? This is as bad as it gets? Sweet. Pascal was a moron.
Of course if that is the Orthodox belief, then why did the pellet gun say:
“The maggots will devour your flesh, as the demons drag your soul into the bowels of the abyss.”
[quote]Fishlips wrote:
As it is, you need churches and clergy and a whole bureaucratic apparatus just to try and preserve whatever version of God you imagine is the right one; as do all other religions.
Does that even resemble the simple form of worship Jesus was trying to teach people? A lot of meaningless tradition and pomp. Many of the original Christians who had converted from Judaism had to be counselled about the necessity to leave completely behind the Jewish form of worship with all its grandeur because they really liked the ornateness(even a word?) of the Jewish way rather than the simple and humble worship of the Christians.[/quote]
Fishlips, how in the world do you make any such claims? Once again I urge you to research the early Christian Church and contrast it with whatever religious affiliation you belong to.
You initially started on page 7 or so of this thread by arguing that everything that needs to be known is apparent in the Bible. Then you draw conclusions contrary the necessity of the Eucharist, the dogma of the Holy Trinity, and on Apostolic succession by providing logical ways of justifying your stance but without any Biblical proof. Listen, you do a nice job of presenting reasonable excuses for why this should not be and why that should not be, but the bottom line is that your arguments go contrary to what the early Church taught and practiced. What’s more, your stance on these issues can’t even be supported by scriptural evidence which you ardently claim is the basis of your entire faith.
Nowhere in the Bible is Apostolic succession clearly expressed, so you draw the conclusion that it must be a myth. Be careful though, because nowhere in the Bible was the concept of Apostolic succession ever denounced.
How do I know that Apostolic succession is a genuine dogma?
(1) The Apostles themselves urged all Christians to stand fast in all traditions of the Church, whether by their word or by their epistle. To this day, the Orthodox Christian Church, which theologians acknowledge as the original Church of Jesus Christ, continues to ordain the clergy according to this tradition. There was never a time when Apostolic succession suddenly just sprung into practice in the Orthodox Christian Church. It was there from the very beginning.
(2) Early Church manuscripts dating back to 96 AD clearly express that Apostolic succession was a tradition which the early Church followed and taught.
The concepts of the Holy Trinity as well as the Eucharist have also been established in a likewise fashion. If these dogmas are fallible (as you assert), than why on earth did the Apostles and their successors continue to practice and teach them to the faithful? You call these traditions meaningless in direct opposition to the plea of the Apostles and the early Church, and that’s ok. You have the right to deviate from Apostolic teachings and practices, but don’t claim that you belong to the true Church.
And before you judge how ridiculous it was for Jews to follow a “bureaucratic apparatus”, reflect upon how a hierarchy existed in Judaism in the Old Testament (ie. the high priest). The Apostles were no different. They became the bishops who elevated presbyters in the Church to cater to the needs of the faithful. To call the holy traditions of the Jews meaningless as well as those which the Apostles passed on to the faithful is inexcusable.
