Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
202

stellar_horizon,

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, you’re Jewish aren’t you? You and Croooz. No wonder Croooz kept blotting out the “o” in God throughout his posts: “G-d”. I didn’t call him out on it, but I know that’s something Jews typically do so as not to profane God’s name. In fact, judging from your recent account and the few posts you’ve initiated on T-Nation, mostly on this thread, I have a strong intuition you’re one & the same person. I could be wrong but that’s besides the point…

If you lack faith that Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God, then my dialogue with you is terminated.
[/quote]

And you guys wonder why we mock you…

Makkun (Now really proud to be a donkey)

203

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
In saying, “Moses received Torah” the rabbis were referring not only to the written laws but to all their oral traditions. They claimed that these traditions, invented and developed by men, were given to Moses by God at Sinai. And they taught that God had not left it up to men to fill in the gaps but had orally defined what the written Law had left unsaid. According to them, Moses passed this oral law down through the generations, not to the priests, but to other leaders. The Pharisees themselves claimed to be the natural inheritors of this ‘unbroken’ chain of authority.
Chilling isn’t it?!?
[/quote]

Yes it is chilling that the Pharisees could pluck out their eyes when faced with the living God who gave Moses the Law, and who has raised him from the dead.

204

Fishlips, you’ve evaded my strongpoints and failed to counter my posts by either citing [b]you don’t have the time to reply[/b] or by shooting off on incoherent tangents - which probably took significant time and efforts to formulate. Then you have the audacity to challenge my line of reasononing. [i]Good work![/i]
I now go back to the archives and recycle questions & concepts which you so cunningly avoided.

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
One final point, with the destruction of Jerusalem and ALL GENEOLOGICAL RECORDS nobody can claim authentic lineage today.
stellar_horizon wrote:
By what authority or research do you allege that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD resulted in the destruction of records tracing the lineage of the Orthodox Christian priesthood back to the Twelve Apostles?

I’m going to go on an offensive here and ask you to prove your allegation (ie. with a prominent study supported by historians or theologians).

FYI, the Orthodox Church spread into all parts of the Roman Empire and well beyond Jerusalem. Orthodox Christianity even spread into Rome itself by 55 AD as is evident by St. Paul’s epistle to the Romans. The Orthodox Church was anchored down by her faithful in the Middle East, Europe, and Africa by 70 AD. By that time, Jerusalem was no longer the epicenter of Christianity. Your allegation is ridiculous.

*I’ll be waiting for some credible evidence. I’m not here to speculate how many angels can dance on the head of a needle. Whatever I post can be supported by credible evidence. If you can’t fulfill this prerequisite, I must kindly ask you to just stick with the facts.[/quote]
It’s obvious by your failure to supply any credible evidence that you were simply spewing lies.

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Now I don’t have all night and the Orthodox contingent have asked a million questions so if every one isn’t addressed yet please don’t attribute it to negligence.
stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, I appreciate the time you’ve spent skimming through the various posts, but to be honest, I was hoping you could reply to my posts with lengthier feedback. Perhaps I bombarded you with too much information which you weren’t ready to handle. I tend to do that to, especially when it comes to weightlifting & nutrition. If you have the time, please counter my posts on a one-by-one basis as I have courteously done with yours. You’ve evidently skimmed over all my strongpoints…
Fishlips wrote:
So I agree not everything could be recorded in the Bible. But what was not recorded would certainly not have contradicted written scripture nor would critical information have been left out.
stellar_horizon wrote:
For the first part of this statement, you’re 100% right. The Orthodox Christian Church adheres to the Bible and has never contradicted any of its written scripture. For the second part of the statement, you’re 100% wrong. I can bombard you with thousands of different concepts the Bible touches upon but doesn’t clarify, leaving Protestants totally clueless over such matters.

St. Matthew 17:18
“And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour. Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, ‘Why could we not cast it out?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting’.”
Describe the guidelines of prayer and fasting which Jesus Christ refers to for casting out demons. Surely, knowing how to heal a demoniac is critical information.
*Remember, according to you the Bible should tell it all so don’t go running to google for Orthodox websites to find the answer. I’ll be waiting for your reply…[/quote]
It’s obvious by your failure to supply me with an answer from the Bible that written scripture clearly leaves out critical information, contrary to your assertion.

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Are you saying it would be damning to play with any part of Revelation but perfectly OK with other parts of the Bible? Common sense tells us this standard can be applied to all scripture without that being a private interpretation or stretch of the imagination.
stellar_horizon wrote:
No offense, but it feels like I’m teaching calculus to a 3rd grader. Have you not read the Old Testament? According to your “common sense”, the only scriptures you should hail as holy are up to Deuteronomy. Scrap any scriptures after that, including the entire New Testament by your own logic.

Deuteronomy 4:2
“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

According to your own “common sense”, you’ve just damned yourself. Sleep easy for two reasons though; (1) you simply have poor “common sense” and (2) the Orthodox Christian Church has made no additions or subtractions to the Bible since using Her 4th century canon to compile it.[/quote]
It’s obvious by your failure to concede and apologize for erroneously interpreting scriptures that you feel smitten.

In these three posts you’ve proven to be anything but a victor, yet you wish to call my reputation into question and challenge my line of reasoning? That’s pitiful… You perfectly express Shugart’s definition of what a strawman and a troll is.

Fishlips, you’ve proven to be a stubborn heretic who bears no communion with Christ’s Church. Any peace I’ve willed for you shall come back to me. Being that you’ve shown your true nature and Orthodox Christians are not to cast pearls before swine, my dialogue with you is over.

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[quote]makkun wrote:
stellar_horizon,
stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, you’re Jewish aren’t you? You and Croooz. No wonder Croooz kept blotting out the “o” in God throughout his posts: “G-d”. I didn’t call him out on it, but I know that’s something Jews typically do so as not to profane God’s name. In fact, judging from your recent account and the few posts you’ve initiated on T-Nation, mostly on this thread, I have a strong intuition you’re one & the same person. I could be wrong but that’s besides the point…

If you lack faith that Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God, then my dialogue with you is terminated.

And you guys wonder why we mock you…

Makkun (Now really proud to be a donkey)[/quote]
Explain yourself Makkun. My patience with athiests storming this thread is wearing thin. Instead of being provided with positive feedback, we get their 2nd grade wisecracks and insults. Grow the f*ck up already. What kind of T-Man do you hail yourself to be?

I could easily brag about my academic credentials while simulatenouesly bearing witness to the Truth of Christ. The reason I said what I said was because my arguments in this thread are specifically directed at other Christians. For someone to hail themselves as a Christian they initially do so by having faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Having faith in Him means having faith in everything He said and did and following in all His ways. A non-Christian will not abide within these same guidelines and will not live the same lifestyle, therefore if my words on theology fall on deaf ears, what good is it to even speak such words to non-Christians?

Put simply, would two dedicated athletes waste time arguing about macronutrient calculations if one was a powerlifter and the other was an endurance runner? As these two different creatures would find no harmony when debating the physical, neither would a Christian and a non-Christian find harmony when debating the spiritual.

P.S. I agree with you that you’re a donkey.

206

stellar_horizon

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
makkun wrote:
stellar_horizon,
stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, you’re Jewish aren’t you? You and Croooz. No wonder Croooz kept blotting out the “o” in God throughout his posts: “G-d”. I didn’t call him out on it, but I know that’s something Jews typically do so as not to profane God’s name. In fact, judging from your recent account and the few posts you’ve initiated on T-Nation, mostly on this thread, I have a strong intuition you’re one & the same person. I could be wrong but that’s besides the point…

If you lack faith that Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God, then my dialogue with you is terminated.

And you guys wonder why we mock you…

Makkun (Now really proud to be a donkey)

Explain yourself Makkun. My patience with athiests storming this thread is wearing thin. Instead of being provided with positive feedback, we get their 2nd grade wisecracks and insults. Grow the f*ck up already. What kind of T-Man do you hail yourself to be?[/quote]

The kind of T-Man that stands up against someone who resorts to an antisemitic tone when he’s not pleased with the answers of someone else, whom he “suspects” to be jewish. I hope I misunderstood you on that one, because that would massively suck.

As I said earlier, I know that mocking is perhaps not the right way of taking part in the discussion, but quite honestly, your holier-than-though attitude is indeed a bit overbearing at times; as is calling people liars when they don’t share your belief system.

Why talk to me then? Let the donkeys play and ignore them.

You see, I don’t have a problem with your strong belief in your god. Having been a christian myself (off course not of the ONLY TRUE BELIEF you support), I remember how much that can mean to someone. But I find the righteousness you tend to display quite unnerving at times. And - I think you are wrong; but as it is not my place to criticise your belief, I will shut up on that one (and stay shut up). But your behaviour, I may criticise. That’s called debate.

Hm. That means you can essentially only speak with likeminded people. I think you missed an important point: Plurality is fun, entertaining and educating. We’re here in a forum where people with different views argue their points. And sometimes they crack a few jokes - even about religion.

Aw, it sounds so sweet, when you say that.

Makkun

207

Clearly the problem that has developed is that we now have at least 5 different groups asking different questions: Romans, Defensive Fundamentalists, Atheists, Jews, and People who call themselves Pagans.

For the Romans, it is clear that the heresy of Papism goes against what the church, including Popes taught for the first 1000 years of Christianity. I would pray for you to rid yourself of the spirit of Nostalgia which is binding you.

For professed Atheists, I would give no argument. You are posessed by subtle Demons and rest assured the Church is praying for you but you do not have the spiritual capacity to cognitivlely understand the mysteries of the Church. Live good lives, and we pray that your hearts will lead you to Baptism. In your child’s heart you do know God.

The same generally for “Pagans” although if you believe in anything, it might bring you to God.

Fundamentalists and Protestants in my experience can be reasoned with as I’ve known personally dozens, and of thousands who have returned to the true faith when they came to know that their understanding of the Bible was shallow compared to the understanding which the Apostles have passed down to us. I predict that there will be a mass conversion of these groups soon.

I don’t know how to argue with someone who truly believes in Judaism. In fact, I’ve never met anyone who does. I’ve heard Jewish professors state that Orthodoxy is the living sect of Judaism. There’s only, what 10 million Jews on earth today, a little more than a tenth of a percent. 90% of the Jewish families at the time of Christ became Christian within the first 100 years of the church.

Each of you has a demon tempting you who can intellectually convince you of anything. The Church can drive away your demons for a time, but then you let them right back in.

This is why S.H. conversion comes from prayer and fasting.

208

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, you’re Jewish aren’t you? You and Croooz. No wonder Croooz kept blotting out the “o” in God throughout his posts: “G-d”. I didn’t call him out on it, but I know that’s something Jews typically do so as not to profane God’s name. In fact, judging from your recent account and the few posts you’ve initiated on T-Nation, mostly on this thread, I have a strong intuition you’re one & the same person. I could be wrong but that’s besides the point…
[/quote]
Don’t ruin a good thread with your assumptions and faulty intuition. If this is the same intuition you’ve used to choose your religion then you need to rethink this.

I’ve already posted what I was, am, and believe. I’m enjoying the posts and went as far as to spend ~4 hours reading all about Orthodoxy and the Apostolic Fathers. If there’s one thing I’ve taken away from this is learning Church History.

Like I said don’t ruin it with your assuming intuition. I plot out the o in G-d so as not to offend those Jewish readers among us. We are told not to have our brothers sin and while they are not my brothers in Christ it is a sin for them and if I can extend them the courtesy then I do.

209

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
What kind of T-Man do you hail yourself to be?
makkun wrote:
The kind of T-Man that stands up against someone who resorts to an antisemitic tone when he’s not pleased with the answers of someone else, whom he “suspects” to be jewish. I hope I misunderstood you on that one, because that would massively suck.[/quote]
Re-read my posts. I have no issues with Jews. I have Jewish friends that I speak with for hours on end every single week. I know religion is a highly sensitive topic, so I’m careful in the things I say and to avoid theology all together when conversing with them. Secondly, I called nobody a liar. If someone says something that can be proven false, then what they have said is a lie. If someone consistently tells lies, then they are a liar. Anyways, I’ve never called anybody on T-Nation a liar, so don’t slander me.

[quote]makkun wrote:
As I said earlier, I know that mocking is perhaps not the right way of taking part in the discussion, but quite honestly, your holier-than-though attitude is indeed a bit overbearing at times; as is calling people liars when they don’t share your belief system.[/quote]
What holier-than-though attitude? Have I proclaimed to be better than you or anyone else? Do I pride myself on being an Orthodox Christian? If I did, then why would I even be here sharing dialogue with others? I wasn’t always Orthodox Christian; I actually wished someone spiritually guided me in the way I’m guiding others in discovering the true Christian Faith. It’s a joy stemming from anything but pride to know you’re actually participating in Christ’s Church, similar to the lifestyle by which the ancient Christians did; this is something I’d like to share with EVERYONE. It’s like the precious pearl spoken of in the Bible which if any man saw, he’d sell everything he had to go and buy that pearl. Secondly, I’m not trying to be offensive, but have you ever thought it was from your own internal hatred that you perceived me as projecting a holier-than-though attitude? That’s essentially how the Pharisees & scribes conveyed Jesus Christ in their wickedness when He preached the Faith to them. He thinks He’s better than us, look at Him!

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
I could easily brag about my academic credentials while simulatenouesly bearing witness to the Truth of Christ. The reason I said what I said was because my arguments in this thread are specifically directed at other Christians. For someone to hail themselves as a Christian they initially do so by having faith in the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Having faith in Him means having faith in everything He said and did and following in all His ways. A non-Christian will not abide within these same guidelines and will not live the same lifestyle, therefore if my words on theology fall on deaf ears, what good is it to even speak such words to non-Christians?
makkun wrote:
Why talk to me then? Let the donkeys play and ignore them.[/quote]
Simply an attempt to reprimand you. And mind you, this is the first post I’ve directed at you. Do as you wish if your conscience allows you to act like a low-class, immature jerk. As a former athiest I can’t even recall being as demeaning as you towards people of any other faith.

[quote]makkun wrote:
You see, I don’t have a problem with your strong belief in your god. Having been a christian myself (off course not of the ONLY TRUE BELIEF you support), I remember how much that can mean to someone. But I find the righteousness you tend to display quite unnerving at times. And - I think you are wrong; but as it is not my place to criticise your belief, I will shut up on that one (and stay shut up). But your behaviour, I may criticise. That’s called debate.[/quote]
Very well, debate my behavior, post my “unnerving” displays of righteousness. Accuse me in plain sight for all to see. In a previous post, I already admit I was a sinner. So much for projecting myself as being holier-than-thou to everyone as you claim. Want me to confess all my sins to you as well?

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Put simply, would two dedicated athletes waste time arguing about macronutrient calculations if one was a powerlifter and the other was an endurance runner? As these two different creatures would find no harmony when debating the physical, neither would a Christian and a non-Christian find harmony when debating the spiritual.
makkun wrote:
Hm. That means you can essentially only speak with likeminded people. I think you missed an important point: Plurality is fun, entertaining and educating. We’re here in a forum where people with different views argue their points. And sometimes they crack a few jokes - even about religion.[/quote]
Not true. I can speak with people more or less intelligent than myself. But I always humble my ego if I’m genuinely trying to learn something from a better educated source - there’s no room to act like a jerk. If I need to learn something about theology, I don’t act like a jerk when confronting the archbishop at my cathedral. If I need to learn something about nutrition, I don’t act like a jerk when confronting Chris or TC or Lonnie or anyone of the Biotest staff. It’s called having respect.

210

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Don’t ruin a good thread with your assumptions and faulty intuition. If this is the same intuition you’ve used to choose your religion then you need to rethink this.

I’ve already posted what I was, am, and believe. I’m enjoying the posts and went as far as to spend ~4 hours reading all about Orthodoxy and the Apostolic Fathers. If there’s one thing I’ve taken away from this is learning Church History.

Like I said don’t ruin it with your assuming intuition. I plot out the o in G-d so as not to offend those Jewish readers among us. We are told not to have our brothers sin and while they are not my brothers in Christ it is a sin for them and if I can extend them the courtesy then I do.[/quote]

MY SINCEREST APOLOGY TO YOU CROOOZ.
I stand corrected. Peace be with you.

211

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Fishlips, you’re Jewish aren’t you? You and Croooz. No wonder Croooz kept blotting out the “o” in God throughout his posts: “G-d”. I didn’t call him out on it, but I know that’s something Jews typically do so as not to profane God’s name. In fact, judging from your recent account and the few posts you’ve initiated on T-Nation, mostly on this thread, I have a strong intuition you’re one & the same person. I could be wrong but that’s besides the point…

No actually I’m Scottish but good guess, many feel there’s a direct link between the Scots and Jews.(LOL) And do you know you’re one of the first people to ever call me cunning. Now you’re just trying to win me over with flattery.
Look, don’t get your knickers in such a twist. When I hear people referring to quantum physics and mystical suppers in order to explain the simple truths found in the Bible it just becomes apparent they’re discombobulating the Bible to say what they want it to.

Hence my replies to your astounding assertions begin:
First off I will say I was predominantly referring to the compiled Jewish genealogical records in the public archives kept in Jerusalem ONLY and destroyed in 70CE. There is no record of this information being stored elsewhere hence no Jews today claim to be successors of the Aaronic priesthood. There is also no record, IN THE BIBLE, that the Christians were keeping any track of their genealogy. The apostle Paul, in fact, writing about 61-64?C.E., told Timothy not to pay attention to ?false stories and to GENEALOGIES, which end up in NOTHING, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith.? (1Ti 1:4) No interpretation needed there! Paul was quite clear to Timothy that genealogy was NOTHING to Christians, don’t worry about it in other words.
If that’s the case why would the Christians be trying to keep such records and, on top of that, be claiming them critical to their faith? Don’t miss the point here. I don’t care, and neither does anyone else who holds the Bible to be the authority, about what your Orthodox reports claim if the bible says otherwise. As someone mentioned much earlier on this thread you have set up a nice little bout of circular reasoning for proving your points if you can’t prove them with Scripture. 1 Tim. 3:16 clearly states: “All SCRIPTURE is inspired of God.” No reference to anything else. Though the apostles were godly men every single utterance of theirs was not necessarily inspired and required to be in the bible for it to be considered complete. Just like the Jews didn’t need every detail spelled out for them because God allowed them to use their brains and reasoning abilities so we don’t need a big book o’ rules to establish every detail of our worship today.

Prayer and fasting Matthew 17:21. This verse just coincidently happens to be a highly disputed verse because it along with Mark 9:29, Acts 10:30 and 1 Cor. 7:5 all had Bible copyists who advocated fasting themselves include the word ‘fasting’ without authority. Compare the Authorized and Douay versions with The New English Bible and The Jerusalem Bible for substantiation. So how’s about we stick to accepted scripture texts. Re: prayer, Jesus had just mentioned a lack of faith which is built up by regular heart-felt prayer. A simple link exists - prayer and faith no convoluted ritual necessary.

Your Deuteronomy mention: Seeing as I had just quoted a similar expression from Revelation you don’t seem to putting 2 and 2 together.
Think about it…Israel had just been given some of God’s regulations and told not to change them in other words. A principle of not tainting God’s expressions was stated and maintained throughout scripture right into Revelation. According to your ultra-literalist take on scripture then Deut. 4:3, the very next verse, would have to be considered as extra if that was how it were meant. Heck we couldn’t even translate the bible into any other language that required more words to make the same expressions. Now back to sanity…

212

Atheists - I find many atheists very interesting to talk to because although we have very different fundamental views most seem to be much more respectful than most ‘religious’ people which I believe is what greatly contributes to their dislike for religion, the people, not necessarily the beliefs.

Open question to atheists - how many feel the way they do because of religious people or the track record of religious activities as opposed to simply disbelief?

213

Let me give these one more try.

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Mertdawg are you just making this up as you go along now? These replies of yours are off in left field. Please come back and explain how your analogies bear on this subject at all.

Fishlips wrote:
why would God condemn the Jews(remember these were God’s people before they rejected Jesus)in their Law if they drank blood? Leviticus 7:27 “Any soul who eats any blood that soul must be cut off(killed)from his people.” At the time Jesus made his statements he was talking to an all-Jew audience.

Mertdawg wrote
An analogy here: why would God condemn homosexuality when sex is good?

Why don’t you eat rocks if eating is good?
[/quote]God’s command not to eat blood was specifically because of the sacredness of blood as Jesus would feed us with his divine blood. It is a prophecy of the Eucharist. You do not take that which is reserved for the blood of Christ and substitute the blood of animals

I understand what you mean now as I used the word symbol, but you are getting blocked on this and ignoring the meaning of what I wrote. The meaning is that the calorie containing substances which the dictionary defines as food are only types of the archtype which is Jesus body and blood. ALL bread (all food) is a symbol of Jesus body, because it is the archtype of food. The bread we use at communion is truly bread, but has become one with the archtypal bread-Jesus’ body.

I would ask you, what physical/chemical form might you expect Jesus’ body and blood to have? Why, for example might it appear as fallen, bloody corruptible flesh?

In response to your word choice, If God viewed something about his creation in a particular way, wouldn’t it be real?

Jesus’ body and blood, in the Eucharist are scientifically composed of bread and wine. God is wholly present in the bread and wine.

A question for you then-how could God exist in a body of human flesh and blood? It is no more or less mysterious. Do you believe in the incarnation? If not, then discussing the Eucharist is ridiculous. If so, then how was God’s presence in a human body different than his proposed presence in bread and wine?

[quote]
FL
So looking at this next expression 1 Cor. 12:12-26 talks about the church being Christ’s body. Are you a foot in that body? How about an eye? Or a hand? An obvious figure of speech is being used by Paul in these verses to express a thought of harmony in the early Christian congregation. To try and relate this figure of speech to the argument on cannibalism is a no go. Remember, we were talking about Jesus LITERAL body not the figure of speech of the church being Christ’s body.

MD
It is not cannibalism because the church is Jesus’ body.
[/quote]If the people of got eat his body and blood, they would truly be. Whoever eats the flesh and blood abides in God and God in him. We do not believe it is a figure of speech.

[quote]
Fishlips wrote:
The Greeks had a divine bread and also a divine nectar or ambrosia, which their mythological gods sipped and which was supposed to impart immortality. The Hindus had a similar belief.

MD
And God gave them this ritual so that they would understand when they had become ready for Christianity.

FL
Did you just say that God created pagan religious rituals and beliefs? Are you listening to yourself? These the same people he would then turn around and condemn for holding on to those beliefs? My oh my what a web we weave…[/quote]

When did got condemn Pagans for these rituals? Please be specific so I can see what you are writing about.

What was good in their rituals was inspired by God so that they could later understand and be converted (as they were)

214

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Open question to atheists - how many feel the way they do because of religious people or the track record of religious activities as opposed to simply disbelief?[/quote]

We’ve done this before, but I’ll respond because this is fun.

I am an atheist because I am not superstitious. I’ll walk right under a ladder if I have to, not think twice about crossing a black cat’s path, etc. I don’t feel the need to pretend, ya know? The real world is good enough for me, I don’t see why I should try to add stuff to it.

I realized a long time ago that religions are just another way for us to reaffirm the desire to belong to something special. It’s another kind of social club. Paradoxically, these social clubs serve to both join us to a group, and isolate us as well. After all, it wouldn’t be special if everyone belonged to it, would it?

This thread is titled “Only One Truth”, but that is false. There’s all kinds of different truths, one for every person. Our point of view colors everything we see and believe. If I hold up a disk like the lid to a Grow! bottle, and you look at it from the front, it is a circle. But if I look at it from the side, it’s a rectangle. Now if we should get into an argument about whether or not it is a rectangle or a circle, that is funny and ironic because we are so locked-in to our ways of looking at things that we are unable to see that we are both right.

I love these threads because I don’t see folks like stellar as much as I want to. The crazy people I see at work are usually violent or throwing up, and you just can’t get to know and appreciate someone who is trying to puke on you. Trust me. :slight_smile:

P.S. stellar: Thank you for clarifying the definition of the word “admonished” for me. Next time I will use the word “told”. My bad.

215

mert: You’re awesome too. When you said that people like me were possessed by “subtle demons”, you meant that metaphorically, right? :slight_smile:

216

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
If I hold up a disk like the lid to a Grow! bottle, and you look at it from the front, it is a circle. But if I look at it from the side, it’s a rectangle. Now if we should get into an argument about whether or not it is a rectangle or a circle, that is funny and ironic because we are so locked-in to our ways of looking at things that we are unable to see that we are both right.
[/quote]

You demonstrate (or maybe I should say DEMON-strate) with this that there is one truth. The physics theory of relativity is the ultimate theory of realism or absolutism with regard to philosophy. Einstein believed in a real truth a the bottom-no uncertainty. There is one real Grow! bottle lid.

217

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
There is one real Grow bottle lid. [/quote]
Ah yes… but so many different ways to describe it.

218

Hmmm… let me clarify…

…is 4 equal to 2+2, or is it 2+1+1?

How can two groups of stuff be essentially the same as three groups of stuff?

Mind boggling, isn’t it? :slight_smile:

219

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Let me give these one more try.

Fishlips wrote:
Mertdawg are you just making this up as you go along now? These replies of yours are off in left field. Please come back and explain how your analogies bear on this subject at all.

Fishlips wrote:
why would God condemn the Jews(remember these were God’s people before they rejected Jesus)in their Law if they drank blood? Leviticus 7:27 “Any soul who eats any blood that soul must be cut off(killed)from his people.” At the time Jesus made his statements he was talking to an all-Jew audience.

Mertdawg wrote
An analogy here: why would God condemn homosexuality when sex is good?

Why don’t you eat rocks if eating is good?
God’s command not to eat blood was specifically because of the sacredness of blood as Jesus would feed us with his divine blood. It is a prophecy of the Eucharist. You do not take that which is reserved for the blood of Christ and substitute the blood of animals

You are quite correct about the sacredness of blood. You have also stated God inspired a measure of pagan beliefs. First, as I have been asked for proof, I would ask you to provide scriptural backing for your statements. I firmly believe you will find no such thoughts expressed in the Bible. To humor the thought though, if God inspired some pagan ideas and teaching them about blood to prepare them was so important then why did the pagans abuse blood so badly? They commonly drank blood in their ceremonies and rituals yet Jews would die if they did so.
You do realize God had worshippers before Jesus correct? Why would he command them(the Israelites) to have no contact with the nations around them? It was to keep them free from contamination by wrong ideas, idolatrous worship and depraved practices. (Jos. 23:6,7,12,13 amongst many others)

FL-
Now this next statement. Before you’ve seemed to contradict Stella by this statement: Food-of any kind-is only a fallen symbol or type of Jesus’ body and blood which is the only REAL food.

I understand what you mean now as I used the word symbol, but you are getting blocked on this and ignoring the meaning of what I wrote. The meaning is that the calorie containing substances which the dictionary defines as food are only types of the archtype which is Jesus body and blood. ALL bread (all food) is a symbol of Jesus body, because it is the archtype of food. The bread we use at communion is truly bread, but has become one with the archtypal bread-Jesus’ body.

When Jesus said ‘my food is to do the will of him that sent me’(Jn 4:34) what was that food? He’s not talking about his body and he’s not talking about literal food so what is this food? Your answers again require scriptural references.

I would ask you, what physical/chemical form might you expect Jesus’ body and blood to have? Why, for example might it appear as fallen, bloody corruptible flesh?

His flesh and blood were fully human only without flaw or corruption. You must ponder for a moment - if Jesus were not killed would he have ever died?

Mertdawg wrote
In the Eucharist, the bread and wine molecules are accepted by God to become his body and blood. Its more an issue of removing the fallen nature of food from bread and wine. What remains is the only real food.

FL Wrote
Excuse me if I’ve misunderstood your statement but it sounds like you’re saying God simply VIEWS the bread and wine as Christ’s flesh and blood and that it doesn’t actually become it in your mouth.(?)

In response to your word choice, If God viewed something about his creation in a particular way, wouldn’t it be real?

Some of these statement are becoming so nebulous.

Jesus’ body and blood, in the Eucharist are scientifically composed of bread and wine. God is wholly present in the bread and wine.

A question for you then-how could God exist in a body of human flesh and blood? It is no more or less mysterious. Do you believe in the incarnation? If not, then discussing the Eucharist is ridiculous. If so, then how was God’s presence in a human body different than his proposed presence in bread and wine?

You’ve brought up a critical point - how could God have become human? Impossible! No mystery, he couldn’t. John 1:18 is very straightforward when it says no human has seen God at any time. Now don’t play with this scripture. It makes no distinction of the form God has at one time or another or any other technical details. It simply says what it says. No human has seen God, EVER. 1000’s of people saw Jesus. What conclusion must we come to then?
Additionally, why was Jesus called the ‘last Adam’ in 1 Cor. 15:45? What was the link between Jesus and Adam? Scriptural answers again only please.

FL
So looking at this next expression 1 Cor. 12:12-26 talks about the church being Christ’s body. Are you a foot in that body? How about an eye? Or a hand? An obvious figure of speech is being used by Paul in these verses to express a thought of harmony in the early Christian congregation. To try and relate this figure of speech to the argument on cannibalism is a no go. Remember, we were talking about Jesus LITERAL body not the figure of speech of the church being Christ’s body.

MD
It is not cannibalism because the church is Jesus’ body.
If the people of got eat his body and blood, they would truly be. Whoever eats the flesh and blood abides in God and God in him. We do not believe it is a figure of speech.

For now we shall agree to disagree.

Fishlips wrote:
The Greeks had a divine bread and also a divine nectar or ambrosia, which their mythological gods sipped and which was supposed to impart immortality. The Hindus had a similar belief.

MD
And God gave them this ritual so that they would understand when they had become ready for Christianity.

FL
Did you just say that God created pagan religious rituals and beliefs? Are you listening to yourself? These the same people he would then turn around and condemn for holding on to those beliefs? My oh my what a web we weave…

When did got condemn Pagans for these rituals? Please be specific so I can see what you are writing about.

How many examples would you like? The Old Testament is littered with pronouncements of God’s judgements against Israel’s pagan neighbors and against Israel when they adopted aspects of pagan worship. Consider the fall of Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Babylon. Lev. 19:27, Lev. 21:5, Deut. 12:30,31, Deut. 18:10-12(there’s more)all contain examples of prohibitions and warnings to the Israelites about copying ways of the pagans.

What was good in their rituals was inspired by God so that they could later understand and be converted (as they were)[/quote]

God called their ‘gods’ dungy and disgusting in his sight,(Jer. 50:2, Eze. 6:4,5,6,9 etc.) and, as I stated above, instructed his people to have nothing to do with these people. Doesn’t give any indication of anything He found(or made) good about them and their way of life and worship.

220

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Hmmm… let me clarify…

…is 4 equal to 2+2, or is it 2+1+1?

How can two groups of stuff be essentially the same as three groups of stuff?

Mind boggling, isn’t it? :)[/quote]

Lothario here’s a thought…

Your boss says he wants a certain business report on his desk Monday morning. Monday morning comes with no report and the boss wants to know what’s up. You say ‘Oh you wanted it today, well TO ME Monday is actually tomorrow.’

Do you think the boss is gonna say ‘Oh OK have it for me tomorrow’? Don’t think so. Your opinion on the subject was irrelevant and you will pay for that, nobody else. You were not incapable of figuring out what the boss meant and wanted.

God has set the standards for us and has the right to do so. To challenge it is not in our best interests.

221

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
There is one real Grow bottle lid.
Ah yes… but so many different ways to describe it.

[/quote]

Another one…

We both look at the sky at noon on a sunny day. You say the sky is blue, I say green. Now it doesn’t matter if I’ve been taught since a child that the color of the sky(blue)is called green, or if I have some retinal myopathy that warps my perception of colors, I must learn that the color of the sky is blue. My perception is flawed(sincerity of conviction is no excuse) and I will look like an idiot if I try to start arguing the sky is green. How much better to humbly admit I have been wrong and learn what is right and true. Would you agree?