One Punch, One Kill

Off Topic
101

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Let’s pretend we’re all “civilized” for a moment and ask our “higher self” what the more evolved choice would be.

/rant

[/quote]

Ok, since I seem to be the one to whom that was directed.

I’ve been locked up a couple of times. I got the picture. I know that it is hard to get a meaningful and productive job, and that people can change.

You and I are one of the verrrrrry few who have in some meaningful way.

It’s not our penile systems job to fix people. That is their own. It is mine. It is yours. It is the criminals who commit the crime.

Drug and alcohol issues- Mine. My responsibility to address.

Poor coping skills and strategies- Also Mine. I suffer for not developing them, and if I wanted to discontinue suffering, time to get developing.

Now I certainly needed help in doing this and guidance along the way, but it was upon me to seek it.

You get the idea. It’s taking responsibility for ones self and actions. You know this. No body else can do that for you, me or anybody else.

You also know damn well that there are an assload of guys behind bars who do nothing but talk shit and bide their time. They have no interest in taking responsibility for their own actions, or remediation of the problems that got them there, and you can damn well bet that they are a 100% chance of recidivism.

Theres this spiritual axiom that I abide by, and it is this “When I am in conflict with my surroundings, it is I who is in conflict, not the surroundings.”

meaning

My problems are not for society to change round. It is me who needs to change.

And save the false pity couple with a rip about intelligence. It just doesn’t work and it’s silly looking when constructed as it was.

[/quote]

but dont u think that in an evolved society, we should be doing our best to give as much help as possible to people who have lost their way? sure, you got onto better things. but what about the people who life has fucked them up from a very early age? people who have been thrown into a deeper hole that you and have just dug themselves deeper because the world has given up on them and prison just makes it that much worse. people with a much bigger hill to climb than you. perhaps near impossible to climb without the intervention and help of others.

perhaps im being very naive. after all, my only experience of prison was watching the shawshank redemption.

102

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
This man clearly has some anger issues. I’m pretty sure prison won’t cure his anger, but I suppose we just live in a world where revenge equals justice… =/[/quote]

Well, lets say he is a product of his environment, O.K.?

Perfect! There is a place called Prison, constructed just for him and others like him. There he is free to mingle with other like him and they can relate to each other and express themselves as they are accustomed to.

You want to deprive him of that?
[/quote]

I don’t even get why Ryuu considers going to prison to be “revenge”. Revenge would be someone punching and killing him.
[/quote]

I just chalk that up to being “internet smart”. [/quote]

Lol.

Sending this man to prison won’t bring the guy he killed back to life. The only reason to send him to prison is revenge. Revenge isn’t predicated on symmetry as you seem to assume it does.

This man snapped. Really fast. Either he was carrying a lot anger already, or he has a tendency to over react to the point where it’s lethal. Both imply something is either psychologically or chemically wrong with him. He needs to be treated, not tortured.

It’s easy to be a pretend badass and demand revenge on everyone whom steps outside social norms like this, but if you’re really interested in “justice”, you need more compasion.[/quote]

You either went to university too long or too hard.

103

[quote]AdamC wrote:
[
but dont u think that in an evolved society, we should be doing our best to give as much help as possible to people who have lost their way? sure, you got onto better things. but what about the people who life has fucked them up from a very early age? people who have been thrown into a deeper hole that you and have just dug themselves deeper because the world has given up on them and prison just makes it that much worse. people with a much bigger hill to climb than you. perhaps near impossible to climb without the intervention and help of others.

perhaps im being very naive. after all, my only experience of prison was watching the shawshank redemption.[/quote]

Well, without going into much detail, I was pretty well screwed from the get go, and it didn’t get better from there.

The thing is, I do help people who want to change, and go out of my way to facilitate and assist in that.

But the key there is Want To Change.

The whole “Don’t we owe them”, or “Shouldn’t we provide…” is false rhetoric. There is plenty to assist people who actually want to change and are willing to do what it takes.

The other end of that is this- If a person spends the majority of their life fucking everybody and everything the come into contact with, It’s GOING to be that much harder to dig themselves out. They have to accept that.

Believe me, I’ve dealt with a whole lot of people who have gotten out of prison and other big messes that they’ve made of their lives. The ones that are truly willing to work as hard as is required make it.
Not as hard as THEY think they should, for a period of time that suites Them, or until it is no longer convenient, or as soon as someone tells them NO, but as hard and long as it takes. The ones that choose this attitude fail every time.

104

Alright, you all pretty much said the same thing… but decided to each say it anyway, so here we go.

None of you are interested in “justice”. You all want revenge. There are more (violent) criminals and returning (violent) criminals in prison now than ever (controlled for population growth). If prison was really the best means to solve crime, just the opposite would be true. The thing is, making something “illegal” doesn’t mean much when you’re stupid-drunk and can’t think past anything that isn’t in your immediate line of sight. So don’t act like prison fixes persons. Perhaps some persons come out better for it, but they are the exception, NOT the rule. Most persons come out more violent and with more pent-up anger than they had before.

Just because you’re ignorant of how to deal with issues like this doesn’t mean it can’t be done and certainly DOESN’T justify using revenge as the next-best tactic. Taking six years from this man’s life does nothing to insure he wont come out REALLY screwed up. You’d be naive to assume otherwise. So, if your main concern really is with keeping these persons away from yourself/family/“civilized” persons rather than punishment, then one would expect you to be in favour of a life sentence for all violent crime, especially considering how “easy” it is to bullshit your way out on good behaviour.

Since that’s not the case, revenge is the only motive left.

105

You’re using the word ‘revenge’ here because of its negative connotations and trying to lay a debating trap for those that argue against you.

106

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Let’s pretend we’re all “civilized” for a moment and ask our “higher self” what the more evolved choice would be.

/rant

[/quote]

Ok, since I seem to be the one to whom that was directed.

I’ve been locked up a couple of times. I got the picture. I know that it is hard to get a meaningful and productive job, and that people can change.

You and I are one of the verrrrrry few who have in some meaningful way.

It’s not our penile systems job to fix people. That is their own. It is mine. It is yours. It is the criminals who commit the crime.

Drug and alcohol issues- Mine. My responsibility to address.

Poor coping skills and strategies- Also Mine. I suffer for not developing them, and if I wanted to discontinue suffering, time to get developing.

Now I certainly needed help in doing this and guidance along the way, but it was upon me to seek it.

You get the idea. It’s taking responsibility for ones self and actions. You know this. No body else can do that for you, me or anybody else.

You also know damn well that there are an assload of guys behind bars who do nothing but talk shit and bide their time. They have no interest in taking responsibility for their own actions, or remediation of the problems that got them there, and you can damn well bet that they are a 100% chance of recidivism.

Theres this spiritual axiom that I abide by, and it is this “When I am in conflict with my surroundings, it is I who is in conflict, not the surroundings.”

meaning

My problems are not for society to change round. It is me who needs to change.

And save the false pity couple with a rip about intelligence. It just doesn’t work and it’s silly looking when constructed as it was.

[/quote]

Actually, I has started typing before you posted, so this was in no way, shape or form directed at you. I hear the views you expressed and agree that in a perfect world people would take 100% responsibility for their actions. But that is NOT the world we live in.

107

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Regarding the whole Prison = Revenge, Torture vs. Treatment debate up there, I offer something for your consideration: PENITENTIARY. That’s the place where the “bad guys” go right? The root of the word is Penance, so it is “a place to seek penance” or forgiveness. The word gained popularity about 500 years ago. The word, “prison” is far older. So this progression from Prison to Penitentiary reflects an evolution of sorts in our society and culture. It lends a shade of compassion - even though it’s ever so slight, it is there nonetheless. That is a GOOD thing.

Churchill is often credited for saying that one can judge how civilized a society is by the way it treats it’s prisoners, it’s poor and the most disadvantaged members of said society. How does the United States measure up?

Having BEEN through the prison system in the United States I feel that I am qualified to answer. It is PATHETIC. Most people come out worse than the went in. And once you get out you have ZERO options for any kind of reasonable employment. It fails to address ANY of the issues that CAUSED the problem to begin with (whether it be addiction, abuse, abandonment, etc…) and it gives NO support to those individuals who lack education or are illiterate (there are non-profit organizations and inmate run programs who do this, but our gov’t does not). I could go on and on describing the inhumane aspects of prison that I, and most other prisoners, have endured, but I’ll spare the details. Suffice it to say that our system is BROKEN.

The fact is, people can change. Then can evolve. I am living proof. For those of you that are so judgmental to believe that every mistake deserves an “eye for an eye” or “lock them up and throw away the key”, I PITY you. Your ignorance for the potential that EVERY human caries along with your naivety to believe you are somehow superior instead of recognizing that EVERY human has the capacity for “wrongdoing” given certain circumstance, will limit your ability to truly experience the full spectrum of humanity that is your birthright and will forever condemn you to the small, narrow world view of “right and wrong”. It’s all your weak, little mind can conceive, so as I said before, I PITY YOU.

Would a society be better served if people that broke the law were punished, put through hell and when finally released, disadvantaged to the point that they had no options (other than to return to criminal behavior)? OR would it be more prudent to understand the root of the incident, TREAT the problem, exercise a little compassion and forgiveness (you know, all that shit EVERY religion teaches? The HUMANE action?) and provide options for the person that would seriously reduce the instance (and the cost) of a repeat offense?

Let’s pretend we’re all “civilized” for a moment and ask our “higher self” what the more evolved choice would be.

/rant

[/quote]

I agree with you 100%. Great post. I hate black and white judgments. And people do change and evolve. LISTEN UP PEOPLE BECAUSE WHAT I’M ABOUT TO TELL YOU IS A PEARL OF WISDOM YOU SHOULD NOT IGNORE. THE MAN THAT HAS NEVER MADE A MISTAKE IS THE DANGEROUS ONE.

HE IS THE RISK. GIVE ME THE MAN THAT HAS MADE MISTAKES AND LEARNED AND THAT WILL BE THE MAN OF EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM. THE OTHER IS THE MISTAKE WAITING TO HAPPEN.

I will say though that forgiveness is for society to dole out. I would have no such forgiveness as the victim’s family. As I said, if it were me, he would not make it out of prison if he took one of mine. And that’s a fact.

108

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Alright, you all pretty much said the same thing… but decided to each say it anyway, so here we go.

None of you are interested in “justice”. You all want revenge. There are more (violent) criminals and returning (violent) criminals in prison now than ever (controlled for population growth). If prison was really the best means to solve crime, just the opposite would be true. The thing is, making something “illegal” doesn’t mean much when you’re stupid-drunk and can’t think past anything that isn’t in your immediate line of sight. So don’t act like prison fixes persons. Perhaps some persons come out better for it, but they are the exception, NOT the rule. Most persons come out more violent and with more pent-up anger than they had before.

Just because you’re ignorant of how to deal with issues like this doesn’t mean it can’t be done and certainly DOESN’T justify using revenge as the next-best tactic. Taking six years from this man’s life does nothing to insure he wont come out REALLY screwed up. You’d be naive to assume otherwise. So, if your main concern really is with keeping these persons away from yourself/family/“civilized” persons rather than punishment, then one would expect you to be in favour of a life sentence for all violent crime, especially considering how “easy” it is to bullshit your way out on good behaviour.

Since that’s not the case, revenge is the only motive left. [/quote]

This is pretty stupid. Really.

So you’re saying crime does not deserve to be punished. That our laws and prison terms associated therewith are not deterrents? There is no doubt people come out fucked up more than when they went in. But that’s an issue of how prisons are managed - not an argument against punishment and a period of confinement. He took a man’s life.

Plenty of people get drunk every weekend. And they don’t go around cold cocking unsuspecting innocent people. When you engage in that kind of conduct, you need to be removed from society for as long as it takes. If you want to come out and do it again, back you go.

I wonder how you’d feel is someone “drunk and stupid” took the life of one of your loved ones. I wonder how you’d stand before the judge and plea that prison is not the answer, but please get the man some therapy. And I wonder how those around us with the proclivity for violence against innocent people would feel if they knew that their actions had no greater consequence than some therapy.

You think you’re smart. Apparently, this is a national illusion in Canada for many. But trust me, and I’m being kind when I say you’re not nearly as clever as you fancy yourself.

109

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
This man clearly has some anger issues. I’m pretty sure prison won’t cure his anger, but I suppose we just live in a world where revenge equals justice… =/[/quote]

Well, lets say he is a product of his environment, O.K.?

Perfect! There is a place called Prison, constructed just for him and others like him. There he is free to mingle with other like him and they can relate to each other and express themselves as they are accustomed to.

You want to deprive him of that?
[/quote]

I don’t even get why Ryuu considers going to prison to be “revenge”. Revenge would be someone punching and killing him.
[/quote]

I just chalk that up to being “internet smart”. [/quote]

Lol.

Sending this man to prison won’t bring the guy he killed back to life. The only reason to send him to prison is revenge. Revenge isn’t predicated on symmetry as you seem to assume it does.

This man snapped. Really fast. Either he was carrying a lot anger already, or he has a tendency to over react to the point where it’s lethal. Both imply something is either psychologically or chemically wrong with him. He needs to be treated, not tortured.

It’s easy to be a pretend badass and demand revenge on everyone whom steps outside social norms like this, but if you’re really interested in “justice”, you need more compasion.[/quote]

Lol.

Some tree-hugging cocksucker thinks that babying a piece of shit like that will do anything.

Fear of legal recourse is the only thing keeping a lot of people from committing crimes. Goddamn I hate my pussy generation. No fucking sense of personal responsibility for anything at all.[/quote]

Not to open a can of worms but… Fuck it.

How is your “pussy generation” supposed to learn personal responsibility, when the generation before them, the educational system, government, MEDIA, etc… have FAILED to teach it to them?

Look at our society… What do you EXPECT? It’s a soft, pussy society.

Honor is not innate. Responsibility isn’t instinct (in fact it’s the opposite). How is the “pussy generation” SUPPOSED to know this shit? America’s “greatest generation” are all either dead or in a nursing home. We live in a time where “40 is the new 20”.

The only way to learn is by having a role model that teaches you, or make enough mistakes where you figure out what you’re doing doesn’t work and somehow find the guidance and courage to change.[/quote]

I don’t disagree with you at all. But again, how the fuck is this guy supposed to learn to take responsibility for killing a man if he doesn’t do time? BG made a good point about people who will take advantage of any perceived weakness, and they are many. My personal belief is that they far outnumber the people committing crimes because of a “chemical imbalance,” or something like it. And it really becomes a problem when society starts assuming the latter like our friend above. That can’t be allowed to happen.

110

I’m going to agree with Nards. This Ryuu kid is parrotting the kind of silly attitude that is easily refuted in practice. He/she probably thinks communism is a great form of government too.

111

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I’m going to agree with Nards. This Ryuu kid is parrotting the kind of silly attitude that is easily refuted in practice. He/she probably thinks communism is a great form of government too.[/quote]

He probably hasn’t seen the fmri of people who’s brains light up like a light bulb and become semi turgid when exposed to violent images either.

112

[quote]AdamC wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Yeah, it was manslaughter. He didn’t intend to kill the guy, but he did so recklessely; recklessness in this sense meaning that he showed disregard for the dangers of his actions. It was enough that he intended to cause serious bodily harm.

See, you don’t have to KNOW that you’ll kill the person, but if a reasonable man can forsee that he might die as a result of cracking his head on the pavement (I believe a trained boxer could probably tell that cold clocking someone would knock them out and send their skull crashing into concrete) then you are culpable.

Drinking is not a defence in any sense. People need to get that fucking idea out of their hands.

Sad, sad story.[/quote]

It isn’t so much about him hitting the pavement and his claim about having a “killer punch” shouldn’t hold any weight here AT ALL.

If you get into a small altercation and hit someone in the head soft enough that they don’t even act injured…but they then go home and die of an internal brain hemorrhage 12 hours later, you can be held on charges of involuntary manslaughter if your punch is later found on autopsy to be the cause of the bleed.

I do not agree with the judge using that statement as if the punishment should be more severe. It shouldn’t. This could happen to ANYONE whether you are a skilled fighter or not…one more reason guys in MMA look retarded for acting like they can beat everyone up.

Him being a douche shouldn’t matter here. He was drunk and picked a fight…something a shit load of people do every weekend because alcohol makes you do dumb shit.[/quote]

if you are a trained fighter there is so obviously a higher chance that you are capable of inflicting more damage on someone than a non-trained person. a boxer can knock out another trained boxer, even with gloves, let alone BARE FISTED on an unsuspecting opponent. therefore you should be held more accountable in such a situations as this: it was not even close to self defence, but an attack on a defenceless man with his hands down. and i dont know why you feel the need to have a dig at MMA fighters in a completely unrelated thread. perhaps some insecurity.[/quote]

The guy didn’t die as a direct result of the punch. He died of the secondary act of hitting his head after the punch. If the punch itself had been what killed him, then by all means, use his words against him.

Insecurity for mentioning MMA? Why? I know how to box. I mentioned them because I see MANY of them acting like they are badass because they took a few classes. The same reason you see this guy’s words as a fault is the same reason an “MMA fighter” could be held on higher charges if his punch or strike causes the direct death of someone.

Likewise, if you walk around looking for a fight, don’t cry if one finds you and the outcome isn’t as planned.

THAT is why MMA was mentioned.

Who made an excuse? I said he was drunk and that this happens often. Who said anything about that meaning he should be let off? All I did was tell you what the law is from what I know of it. If you are trying this hard to find shit wrong with what I wrote, maybe the problem is you.

113

X, this statement

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This could happen to ANYONE whether you are a skilled fighter or not…
[/quote]

And this statement

Don’t have anything to do with one another. You don’t like boxers or MMA guys, that’s fine. But don’t take unnecessary shots at them.

The fact is, whether you like to admit it or not, boxers and MMA fighters (and real fighters, not brotards) are exponentially more dangerous than your average person.

114

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
X, this statement

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This could happen to ANYONE whether you are a skilled fighter or not…
[/quote]

And this statement

Don’t have anything to do with one another. You don’t like boxers or MMA guys, that’s fine. But don’t take unnecessary shots at them.

The fact is, whether you like to admit it or not, boxers and MMA fighters (and real fighters, not brotards) are exponentially more dangerous than your average person.[/quote]

I don’t like boxers? Even after I just wrote that I box? WTF? Are you literate today? I was boxing before the age of 10.

The first statement is in regards to hitting someone and having them die of SECONDARY causes. Yes, that can happen to ANYONE. The second statement is in regards to openly stating your skill level and the repercussions of getting into an altercation that ends badly not in your favor.

If you needed clarification, just ask, but clearly you are having a hard time following the discussion.

115

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t like boxers? Even after I just wrote that I box? WTF? Are you literate today? I was boxing before the age of 10.
[/quote]

I had not read that post. Apologies.

I absolutely agree. But the fact is that while some jerkoff that doesn’t know how to punch may swing and connect, he’s not going to have the power that a boxer will have because of his lack of technique. The punch is also more likely to be telegraphed, meaning that drunk fuck A is going to have a much better chance at dodging it then a guy who makes his living landing left hooks.

So while I definitely agree that it could happen to anyone (I know untrained people that this very thing has happened to), without you being a good puncher, that secondary cause might not ever come into play because the guy dodged it, didn’t get knocked out or down like he would have, etc.

To say that there’s NO correlation isn’t accurate.

As far as openly stating skill leve, yea you’re asking for legal trouble. But the people who do this, more often than not, are just assholes who, like you said, took a few classes and think they’re hardasses.

My point is that you’re making generalizations that aren’t fair, as if everyone who trains boxing or MMA talks about how great they are with it all the time. It’s no differnt than you being upset about the “I pick things up and put them down” commercial.

116

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I absolutely agree. But the fact is that while some jerkoff that doesn’t know how to punch may swing and connect, he’s not going to have the power that a boxer will have because of his lack of technique. [/quote]

Which is WHY I mentioned secondary causes of death. If you get into a fight, the possibility of death of one or both parties is a very real possibility. They don’t have to be skilled. Shit happens and if some unskilled person does something that still causes you to die (pushes you so you land on an exposed water sprinkler head and die), they will suffer the same consequences…which is why his statement here doesn’t matter. His punch wasn’t what killed the man. The man’s landing is what killed him.

[quote]

As far as openly stating skill leve, yea you’re asking for legal trouble. But the people who do this, more often than not, are just assholes who, like you said, took a few classes and think they’re hardasses.[/quote]

…and it is those I wrote that comment for. If you are the type of jackass like I see often shadow boxing in the gym, don’t act surprised if that comes back to haunt you should something happen like this very thread.

If you run around bragging about how “skilled” you are (like MANY MMA guys do while equally assuming other people are unskilled), yes, if you hurt someone, you can go to jail.

[quote]
My point is that you’re making generalizations that aren’t fair, as if everyone who trains boxing or MMA talks about how great they are with it all the time. It’s no differnt than you being upset about the “I pick things up and put them down” commercial. [/quote]

I didn’t say “everyone”. However, if your entire life centers around ultimate fighting t-shirts and everyone knows (because of your mouth) how “skilled” you are, you now fit into the same category as the guy in the OP.

There is a clear TYPE of person like this out there and pretending they don’t exist simply because you are involved in MMA isn’t ding you any favors.

That shit attracts jackasses with big mouths like few other pursuits.

117

He’s dead… Drop it. Jesus Christ.

118

I can’t believe some of the posts here

revenge?

the punch didn’t kill him the fall did?

sure it was accidental and we should just let this guy off the hook since punishing him for his crime is “Revenge” and that will make us bad.
That attitude is why civilizations have fallen. It’s how animals live, we has humans have the unique gift of conscience. You and you alone are responsible for your actions regardless of your circumstance.

AdamC said it
Theres this spiritual axiom that I abide by, and it is this "When I am in conflict with my surroundings, it is I who is in conflict, not the surroundings.

If we absolved everyone of this responsibility because of their surroundings then it would be nothing less than chaos. In the famous words of my dad “life doesn’t owe you shit”.

In order for society to maintain a functional level we all carry the responsibility of adhering to the rules/processes (this could be a whole other debate if you take corruption into account). If you can or do not want to then you can kindly fuck off. All the luxuries that we take for granted (i.e. easily acessible food, infrastructure, healthcare, education) are made possible because of these rules/processes so if you are not contributing your share you do not deserve to partake in any of them.

119

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

the punch didn’t kill him the fall did?
[/quote]

Uh, yeah, that is what happened. I do believe that is the difference in this country between involuntary and voluntary man-slaughter. If your lawyer can get a jury to believe that you did not intend on killing him and that he died not because of the direct hit but what happened afterwards, then you get involuntary.

I know we have some lawyers here who can clarify that.

120

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I didn’t say “everyone”. However, if your entire life centers around ultimate fighting t-shirts and everyone knows (because of your mouth) how “skilled” you are, you now fit into the same category as the guy in the OP.

There is a clear TYPE of person like this out there and pretending they don’t exist simply because you are involved in MMA isn’t ding you any favors.

That shit attracts jackasses with big mouths like few other pursuits.[/quote]

I’m not involved in MMA, I’m involved in boxing, and boxing, as you know, attracts a much different crowd than MMA.

And believe me when I tell you I’m no fan of MMA fans in general… or many of the practitioners- exactly for the reason you state.

But just like I said- you often make statements that generalize massively about fighters, and it’s still no different from the presuppositions that are made about bodybuilders. And there’s certainly bodybuilders that fit the mold that society has created for them- but it ain’t all of them, and you’d take offense too if someone assumed it.

In all honesty it attracts the same assholes that are attraced to weightlifting and bodybuilding and any other physical pursuit that they feel could make them “superior” to their fellow man. There’s less differences than you think.

Did you say “Everyone?” No. But you allude to it, and have done so consistently.