One Punch, One Kill

Off Topic
181

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

LOL

Provide your supporting statistics that PUNISHMENT DOES NOT DETER CRIME.[/quote]

I’m assuming you wrote this before looking at my later posts…[/quote]

You provided nothing but two weak statistic with no evidence of causality or, adjusted for other factors - like the lack of law enforcement and law and order in general - particularly in fucking africa of all places. Talk to me about drug crime in those countries that execute for it. Talk to me about homicide in those countries that publicly hang your fucking ass from a high object while you swing and town watches. Stop shop-lifting from those bleeding hearts at “deathpenaltywatch.com” and other similar bleeding heart sites. The only thing wrong with the death penalty is that it is not swift or public enough.

182

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Yes, but your supposition is based on the fallacy that it is our problem to understand and fix. That is the flaw.

Your premise is flawed and your supporting argument has big holes all throughout. Until you patch those and revise the premise, you can not be right.

When you get to college take a couple of courses on argument and composition.

Before you can synthesize, you need the anti-thesis and the thesis. You are lacking in the anti-thesis.

Translated to common terms- Before you can create a new “something”, you need to take what is real and what is ideal. You are lacking in what is real.

It’s an all too common case of trying to think outside the box without knowing what is in it yet.
[/quote]

Good shit right there. Bravo. On point.

183

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

An actual response. I’m shocked.

The system merely “taking it into account” doesn’t change that it is a system primarily built upon the notion of vengeance against criminals. The point remains that when someone acts out in this way it falls under one of three categories.
1.Self defense
2.Psychological problem
3.Chemical problem

We can rule out number one, which leaves us with it being psychological or chemical. Both need treatment to be solved. If there are persons who end up “better” due to imprisonment, then fine, but they are an exception. Besides, a competent analysis would show this anyway.

Initially, you would be right that I need first hand experience in or around these prisons and witnessed how these convicts behave after. However, there’s something called “statistics”. Statistics allow us to see the raw numbers independent of emotion, therefore statistics are a superior method to decide how to deal with such behaviour.

Understand, most persons avoid stealing and killing for reasons greater than “because the law says so”. Given that society would first have to come to a point of great compassion for treatment to replace vengeance, I doubt very much that MORE crime would happen as a result of trying to figure out why it occurs in the first place. Besides, being under treatment takes away your freedoms in much the same way that imprisonment does. The difference is convicts would come out with more than just a hardened heart and a wider asshole.

If a persons is so screwed up that they cannot be rehabilitated, then that person needs to be Euthanized. Perhaps this seems cruel, but it is much more compassionate than keeping this person in a cage their entire life at the expense of others. This is also why I doubt persons would suddenly decide it’s a good idea to enact unnecessary violence.

Most acts of homicide are done within high population areas. These also happen to be the areas with the most police protection. I would say that just about all departments are under funded, but that’s just what you get when police protection is under a coercive monopoly.

It’s worth noting that I’m opposed to vengeance as a means of dealing out “justice”, I’m NOT opposed to police protection at all. [/quote]

Actually an intelligent post however misguided and full of holes that it is.

First, man has been waging violence against his fellow man since the caveman. It’s in our nature. To ascribe that behavior to the 3 causes you claim above is too simplistic. And, you’re presuming that if you could identify the problem, that it can be “fixed”. My guess is that you’d be doing an awful lot of “euthanasia” and that my friend, is not much more different than the punishment and so-called “revenge” justice that exist today - you’re just wrapping it in a suit of another color, and giving it a different name. The root problem to much violence is simply testosterone and youth. Yes. It really is no more complicated than that a lot of the times. And there are other problems, that are rooted in broken families, a society that glorifies violence and are not in any fashion related to the 3 causes you claim above. Under your plan, I assure you that more executions would occur. You’re 17. You can’t find life experience in a book. I can take you to the City and expose you to more violent people in one hour than you are likely to encounter in the rest of your life. If you plucked them all up, and took them away to your therapy spa, and then removed them from their environment and handed them jobs they didn’t earn, and gave them salaries they do not earn, you MIGHT keep them out of trouble. But society doesn’t work this way. We reward those that work for it. Instead, you could therapy this group all you want, and at the end of the day, you’d be executing 90% of them - because the moment they returned to their environment, your therapy don’t mean shit. It’s great for the classroom or a book - but society’s problems are more complex than your 3 neatly tied up reasons for all aggression committed by man.

184

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

The system already takes into account whether or not a criminal has mental issues or problems. Usually, such persons are put into special facilities where they can be rehabilitated. This goon had the opportunity to prove that he was incapable of knowing the possible consequences of his actions. Appropriately, being intoxicated is not a defense. People need to learn to act responsibly. If they know they are prone to be asshats when drinking, they should stop drinking.

Also, although sentences are generally taken from set or common guidelines, judges can take into consideration certain mitigating factors when deciding what the criminal’s appropriate sentence should be. For example, Leroy or Jimmy the Boxer can say how they’re sorry, and then their mothers can come up and exclaim how they were such good boys…always went to church on Sundays, etc. Then the judge rightly throws the book at them because they are full of shit. Seriously though, there are cases where judges have significantly reduced sentences b/c they felt that the defendant was sincere and/or that the defendant made a mistake.

Until you have actually experienced the system firsthand, on either side of the equation, you have no basis for the statements you are making.

Yes, retribution is a big part of the justice system, but as others have said, so are deterrence and incapacitation. Do you really think that the rate of violence will decrease b/c instead of being imprisoned, criminals are coddled and rehabilitated in some facility? Joey Toughshit will see that Jim Fuckhead didn’t have to spend 6 years of his life in a jail cell getting shanked by Mexicans, so he goes out knifing people knowing that the worst possible consequence is some lady in a white uniform giving him medicine and reading him bedtime stories.

Also, the increase in violence from your statistics is not directly related to the function of our punishment system. How much of this violence occurs when law enforcement isn’t around? How much of this violence occurs in locales where law enforcement agencies are understaffed or have shit budgets? Do you really think these figures of yours would be the same if cops patrolled every street corner in the country (and all LEOs were competent)? Sure, you would have some idiots that would break the law regardless, but the majority of people would probably be deterred from committing any crime. [/quote]

An actual response. I’m shocked.

The system merely “taking it into account” doesn’t change that it is a system primarily built upon the notion of vengeance against criminals. The point remains that when someone acts out in this way it falls under one of three categories.
1.Self defense
2.Psychological problem
3.Chemical problem

We can rule out number one, which leaves us with it being psychological or chemical. Both need treatment to be solved. If there are persons who end up “better” due to imprisonment, then fine, but they are an exception. Besides, a competent analysis would show this anyway.

Initially, you would be right that I need first hand experience in or around these prisons and witnessed how these convicts behave after. However, there’s something called “statistics”. Statistics allow us to see the raw numbers independent of emotion, therefore statistics are a superior method to decide how to deal with such behaviour.

Understand, most persons avoid stealing and killing for reasons greater than “because the law says so”. Given that society would first have to come to a point of great compassion for treatment to replace vengeance, I doubt very much that MORE crime would happen as a result of trying to figure out why it occurs in the first place. Besides, being under treatment takes away your freedoms in much the same way that imprisonment does. The difference is convicts would come out with more than just a hardened heart and a wider asshole.

If a persons is so screwed up that they cannot be rehabilitated, then that person needs to be Euthanized. Perhaps this seems cruel, but it is much more compassionate than keeping this person in a cage their entire life at the expense of others. This is also why I doubt persons would suddenly decide it’s a good idea to enact unnecessary violence.

Most acts of homicide are done within high population areas. These also happen to be the areas with the most police protection. I would say that just about all departments are under funded, but that’s just what you get when police protection is under a coercive monopoly.

It’s worth noting that I’m opposed to vengeance as a means of dealing out “justice”, I’m NOT opposed to police protection at all. [/quote]

I think you’re missing out on why a lot of people commit crimes. A lot of it has to do with the environment one is brought up in…and you can’t change one’s environment by simply rehabilitating them. They end up back in the same environment, and they go back to committing crime again. Most recidivists are simply brought up to be criminals and to not respect the system or others in society. The only way to counterract this problem is by locking them up. Many criminals do not want to be rehabilitated. Many see prison as a rite of passage, and they would simply go through the motions if they were put into a rehab program. In fact, it would be easier for them since they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shanked by other guys.

When I said that you didn’t have the experience with the system, I meant that you do not know how our legal system works. It is more efficient than you think. It’s one thing reading about theories of punishment from a textbook, but it’s another thing to actually know how the legal system applies these theories to convictions and sentencing.

Yes, most violence does occur in higher populated cities which have larger police forces, but again, police resources still have to be allocated, and they can’t watch over everyone. Any increase in violent crime is more closely related to the inefficiency of law enforcement than it is to punishment. Most criminals make a reasoned and conscious decision to commit crimes when they believe they can get away with it. If police were in their presence, they probably wouldn’t commit a crime since there’s a greater chance of getting caught and facing punishment. Criminals aren’t just a bunch of retards running around not knowing right from wrong. They make conscious decisions to disregard what’s morally right. The few people who commit crimes that do have mental/psychological problems are given the appropriate rehab in treatment in separate facilities.

185

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

I think you’re missing out on why a lot of people commit crimes. A lot of it has to do with the environment one is brought up in…and you can’t change one’s environment by simply rehabilitating them. They end up back in the same environment, and they go back to committing crime again. Most recidivists are simply brought up to be criminals and to not respect the system or others in society. The only way to counterract this problem is by locking them up. Many criminals do not want to be rehabilitated. Many see prison as a rite of passage, and they would simply go through the motions if they were put into a rehab program. In fact, it would be easier for them since they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shanked by other guys.

When I said that you didn’t have the experience with the system, I meant that you do not know how our legal system works. It is more efficient than you think. It’s one thing reading about theories of punishment from a textbook, but it’s another thing to actually know how the legal system applies these theories to convictions and sentencing.

Yes, most violence does occur in higher populated cities which have larger police forces, but again, police resources still have to be allocated, and they can’t watch over everyone. Any increase in violent crime is more closely related to the inefficiency of law enforcement than it is to punishment. Most criminals make a reasoned and conscious decision to commit crimes when they believe they can get away with it. If police were in their presence, they probably wouldn’t commit a crime since there’s a greater chance of getting caught and facing punishment. Criminals aren’t just a bunch of retards running around not knowing right from wrong. They make conscious decisions to disregard what’s morally right. The few people who commit crimes that do have mental/psychological problems are given the appropriate rehab in treatment in separate facilities.[/quote]

LOL I just posted something similar.

186

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
In what way is communism and dictatorships more lenient than North American politics? You never actually explain why, you just assert it.
[/quote]

Lenient? you must be braindead, corruption very seldom allows for JUSTICE people do get “punished” just not the people that need to be punished, but on a further note please please try and tell me about south africa…

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
In what way is trying to rehabilitate infeasible? It’s done at least in part NOW is it not? Again, you merely assert this with no reasoning behind it.
[/quote]

Well, right now rehabilitation IS being done on people that need it. The resources it would take to rehabilitate all of the criminals that enter the system would be enormous the way things stand now, sure it can be improved but to blame the judicial system for not rehabbing this guy after he commits a crime (your point) is ludicrous.

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You have to take in to consideration what constitutes as intentional homicide in Saudi Arabia, as well as the utter lack of statistics provided for that area. Saudi Arabia has a very different style of dealing with murder than we do (eg. Diyya). There will always be exceptions from year to year. The trends are what matters.
/quote]

Yes they do have a far different system, a lot more corporal and public punishment. If you are going to go that route … well how can you be so sure about the statistics backing up YOUR POINT?

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Emotions are a fact of life. Suppressing them only served to aggregate them later. If you supress your emotions long enough, they explode violently. Therefore it is in the best interest of anyone who wishes to avoid unnecessary homicide to fix the problem rather than suppress it. [/quote]

Yeah sure, learn to deal with it or carry the consequences, you are advocating a primal lifestyle and if anything goes wrong it’s because the “system” failed not because you did something wrong. This entitlement is the reason why north america is in trouble economically now and still slipping.

I love how you make a claim without backing and when someone counters you ask for facts.

187

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

I think you’re missing out on why a lot of people commit crimes. A lot of it has to do with the environment one is brought up in…and you can’t change one’s environment by simply rehabilitating them. They end up back in the same environment, and they go back to committing crime again. Most recidivists are simply brought up to be criminals and to not respect the system or others in society. The only way to counterract this problem is by locking them up. Many criminals do not want to be rehabilitated. Many see prison as a rite of passage, and they would simply go through the motions if they were put into a rehab program. In fact, it would be easier for them since they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shanked by other guys.

When I said that you didn’t have the experience with the system, I meant that you do not know how our legal system works. It is more efficient than you think. It’s one thing reading about theories of punishment from a textbook, but it’s another thing to actually know how the legal system applies these theories to convictions and sentencing.

Yes, most violence does occur in higher populated cities which have larger police forces, but again, police resources still have to be allocated, and they can’t watch over everyone. Any increase in violent crime is more closely related to the inefficiency of law enforcement than it is to punishment. Most criminals make a reasoned and conscious decision to commit crimes when they believe they can get away with it. If police were in their presence, they probably wouldn’t commit a crime since there’s a greater chance of getting caught and facing punishment. Criminals aren’t just a bunch of retards running around not knowing right from wrong. They make conscious decisions to disregard what’s morally right. The few people who commit crimes that do have mental/psychological problems are given the appropriate rehab in treatment in separate facilities.[/quote]

LOL I just posted something similar.[/quote]

It’s prob b/c we are familiar with the kind folk of philadelphia and from across the delaware.

EDIT: Lol. I missed your actual post above mine…well said.

188

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

I think you’re missing out on why a lot of people commit crimes. A lot of it has to do with the environment one is brought up in…and you can’t change one’s environment by simply rehabilitating them. They end up back in the same environment, and they go back to committing crime again. Most recidivists are simply brought up to be criminals and to not respect the system or others in society. The only way to counterract this problem is by locking them up. Many criminals do not want to be rehabilitated. Many see prison as a rite of passage, and they would simply go through the motions if they were put into a rehab program. In fact, it would be easier for them since they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shanked by other guys.

When I said that you didn’t have the experience with the system, I meant that you do not know how our legal system works. It is more efficient than you think. It’s one thing reading about theories of punishment from a textbook, but it’s another thing to actually know how the legal system applies these theories to convictions and sentencing.

Yes, most violence does occur in higher populated cities which have larger police forces, but again, police resources still have to be allocated, and they can’t watch over everyone. Any increase in violent crime is more closely related to the inefficiency of law enforcement than it is to punishment. Most criminals make a reasoned and conscious decision to commit crimes when they believe they can get away with it. If police were in their presence, they probably wouldn’t commit a crime since there’s a greater chance of getting caught and facing punishment. Criminals aren’t just a bunch of retards running around not knowing right from wrong. They make conscious decisions to disregard what’s morally right. The few people who commit crimes that do have mental/psychological problems are given the appropriate rehab in treatment in separate facilities.[/quote]

LOL I just posted something similar.[/quote]

It’s prob b/c we are familiar with the kind folk of philadelphia and from across the delaware.

EDIT: Lol. I missed your actual post above mine…well said.[/quote]

LOL and he wonders why I walk around wanting to give beatings. This is the jungle, and people are animals. You are either predator or prey in some places. I prefer to be peaceful, but your ass is on the menu if you think I’m prey. There isn’t a textbook printed that will enlighten him to survival in the jungle where violent crime cannot easily be ascribed to his 3 golden diagnoses.

189

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Yes, but your supposition is based on the fallacy that it is our problem to understand and fix. That is the flaw.

Your premise is flawed and your supporting argument has big holes all throughout. Until you patch those and revise the premise, you can not be right.

When you get to college take a couple of courses on argument and composition.

Before you can synthesize, you need the anti-thesis and the thesis. You are lacking in the anti-thesis.

Translated to common terms- Before you can create a new “something”, you need to take what is real and what is ideal. You are lacking in what is real.

It’s an all too common case of trying to think outside the box without knowing what is in it yet.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? You’ve made a lot of assertions without an argument here. Where are these holes? How is it not societies problem to understand and fix a problem within society? Does it not follow that understanding and solving is better than suppressing and fighting?

For what it’s worth, I’m in university.

Lacking what is “real”? What’s real is already established. Convicts go to prison and are kept there for an arbitrary amount of time in hopes that they’ll just get fixed somewhere along the line. The ideal would be a more compassionate world where criminals aren’t looked upon like sub-human. Ideally, persons would set aside they’re egotistical thirst for vengeance and actually focus on solving the problem.

190

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

Honestly, I don`t know why this is so controversial. It seems to be basic logic to me that fixing the problem is a superior method to simply pushing it out of sight and out of mind. [/quote]

Because if you were twice as old as you are now, you’d fucking realize that we don’t live in a time where all problems can be “fixed”. Therefore, it is necessary to remove those that prove to be anti-social and dangerous from society for a period of time. If you’re waiting for society, rather than the individual, to fix the problem, go ahead and hold your breath please, I’ll wait. Because society doesn’t work that way. Because we already have programs in place for those that WANT help. You can swim against the stream if you want, but it will end in prison or worse. That my young friend, is nature, the rule of the land. [/quote]

I agree with you 90%. The difference is you think the time spent removed from society should be arbitrary and not even make an attempt to help this person during. I think the time one spends removed from society should be until they have actually shown they are ready to rejoin.

As I’ve said, if a persons is truly unable to rejoin society and makes no progress in their treatment, the least painful course of action is euthanasia.

191

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

What are you talking about? You’ve made a lot of assertions without an argument here. Where are these holes? How is it not societies problem to understand and fix a problem within society? Does it not follow that understanding and solving is better than suppressing and fighting?

[/quote]
Yeh society fixes it by removing them, displaying that you either abide by the rules or remove yourself from the society

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

Lacking what is “real”? What’s real is already established. Convicts go to prison and are kept there for an arbitrary amount of time in hopes that they’ll just get fixed somewhere along the line. The ideal would be a more compassionate world where criminals aren’t looked upon like sub-human. Ideally, persons would set aside they’re egotistical thirst for vengeance and actually focus on solving the problem. [/quote]

compassion for what? they chose to act knowing the consequences. If i know that putting my finger in a plug is going to electrocute me but I do it all the same , is it now electricity’s fault for not educating me? or for not understanding my problem and rehabilitating me?

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

For what it’s worth, I’m in university.
[/quote]

ask for your money back, you are clearly being screwed over

192

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

LOL

Provide your supporting statistics that PUNISHMENT DOES NOT DETER CRIME.[/quote]

I’m assuming you wrote this before looking at my later posts…[/quote]

You provided nothing but two weak statistic with no evidence of causality or, adjusted for other factors - like the lack of law enforcement and law and order in general - particularly in fucking africa of all places. Talk to me about drug crime in those countries that execute for it. Talk to me about homicide in those countries that publicly hang your fucking ass from a high object while you swing and town watches. Stop shop-lifting from those bleeding hearts at “deathpenaltywatch.com” and other similar bleeding heart sites. The only thing wrong with the death penalty is that it is not swift or public enough. [/quote]

I’ve never even heard of that site until now… =/

Your argument is strange. The actions you’ve listed clearly come from a nation even less compassionate than yours, which is why it’s so bat-shit crazy and sucks. If anything, this is an argument for my case. Even stranger still, after bashing these countries for their insanity you end by saying “the death penalty is not swift or public enough”. WTF???

Why are you even talking to me about the death penalty? I’ve already stated that I’m in favour of euthanizing criminals whom absolutely cannot function in society.

Also, you never specified what sort of statistics you wanted. I was left to deduce that you meant violent crime rates relative to the harshness of that countries laws, which I have. I posted only a little information given on the site, feel free to check out the rest of it. If you have another theory for why East Europe and Southern Africa have higher homicide rates, feel free to tell me.

193

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
The chances of RyuuKyuzo being over the age of 20 seems incredibly small.[/quote]
Checked his Hub…says 17. Looks like I was right and owe myself a beer.

Well, with his opposition to the justice system and opposition to capitalism he will do very well in university in two years. Hot and cold running chicks. Not my kind of chicks to be sure, but he’ll do quite well with the ones that look like Lisa Loeb.
[/quote]

Opposition to capitalism? Where the fuck are you getting this? I’m 100% FOR capitalism. Do you even know what capitalism is?

194

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

An actual response. I’m shocked.

The system merely “taking it into account” doesn’t change that it is a system primarily built upon the notion of vengeance against criminals. The point remains that when someone acts out in this way it falls under one of three categories.
1.Self defense
2.Psychological problem
3.Chemical problem

We can rule out number one, which leaves us with it being psychological or chemical. Both need treatment to be solved. If there are persons who end up “better” due to imprisonment, then fine, but they are an exception. Besides, a competent analysis would show this anyway.

Initially, you would be right that I need first hand experience in or around these prisons and witnessed how these convicts behave after. However, there’s something called “statistics”. Statistics allow us to see the raw numbers independent of emotion, therefore statistics are a superior method to decide how to deal with such behaviour.

Understand, most persons avoid stealing and killing for reasons greater than “because the law says so”. Given that society would first have to come to a point of great compassion for treatment to replace vengeance, I doubt very much that MORE crime would happen as a result of trying to figure out why it occurs in the first place. Besides, being under treatment takes away your freedoms in much the same way that imprisonment does. The difference is convicts would come out with more than just a hardened heart and a wider asshole.

If a persons is so screwed up that they cannot be rehabilitated, then that person needs to be Euthanized. Perhaps this seems cruel, but it is much more compassionate than keeping this person in a cage their entire life at the expense of others. This is also why I doubt persons would suddenly decide it’s a good idea to enact unnecessary violence.

Most acts of homicide are done within high population areas. These also happen to be the areas with the most police protection. I would say that just about all departments are under funded, but that’s just what you get when police protection is under a coercive monopoly.

It’s worth noting that I’m opposed to vengeance as a means of dealing out “justice”, I’m NOT opposed to police protection at all. [/quote]

Actually an intelligent post however misguided and full of holes that it is.

First, man has been waging violence against his fellow man since the caveman. It’s in our nature. To ascribe that behavior to the 3 causes you claim above is too simplistic. And, you’re presuming that if you could identify the problem, that it can be “fixed”. My guess is that you’d be doing an awful lot of “euthanasia” and that my friend, is not much more different than the punishment and so-called “revenge” justice that exist today - you’re just wrapping it in a suit of another color, and giving it a different name. The root problem to much violence is simply testosterone and youth. Yes. It really is no more complicated than that a lot of the times. And there are other problems, that are rooted in broken families, a society that glorifies violence and are not in any fashion related to the 3 causes you claim above. Under your plan, I assure you that more executions would occur. You’re 17. You can’t find life experience in a book. I can take you to the City and expose you to more violent people in one hour than you are likely to encounter in the rest of your life. If you plucked them all up, and took them away to your therapy spa, and then removed them from their environment and handed them jobs they didn’t earn, and gave them salaries they do not earn, you MIGHT keep them out of trouble. But society doesn’t work this way. We reward those that work for it. Instead, you could therapy this group all you want, and at the end of the day, you’d be executing 90% of them - because the moment they returned to their environment, your therapy don’t mean shit. It’s great for the classroom or a book - but society’s problems are more complex than your 3 neatly tied up reasons for all aggression committed by man. [/quote]

It’s not as though I propose treating them for a month, marking off their place on the “progression chart” and killing them if they just didn’t make this months cut or something along those lines. I don’t think it’s simply testosterone and youth, I agree with you that society glorifies violence but I would add sexual and emotional repression to the list. Simply being young and full of man-juice is no problem unless you’re trying to repress what’s natural. And this is where the real insanity lies. Society is fucked up and pushes you over the edge, then punishes you for it. It creates misery in you, but expects you to hide it, to suppress it.

If society was more compassionate and less egotistical, then we wouldn’t be creating extra violent criminals and the ones we’d be left with could be treated. It’s easy right now to say “this guy’s just a douchbag” because it’s true, but I see no reason why it has to be that way. Mankind is much less insane today than ever in history and I see no reason why this trend would stop.

195

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]theOUTLAW wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

The system already takes into account whether or not a criminal has mental issues or problems. Usually, such persons are put into special facilities where they can be rehabilitated. This goon had the opportunity to prove that he was incapable of knowing the possible consequences of his actions. Appropriately, being intoxicated is not a defense. People need to learn to act responsibly. If they know they are prone to be asshats when drinking, they should stop drinking.

Also, although sentences are generally taken from set or common guidelines, judges can take into consideration certain mitigating factors when deciding what the criminal’s appropriate sentence should be. For example, Leroy or Jimmy the Boxer can say how they’re sorry, and then their mothers can come up and exclaim how they were such good boys…always went to church on Sundays, etc. Then the judge rightly throws the book at them because they are full of shit. Seriously though, there are cases where judges have significantly reduced sentences b/c they felt that the defendant was sincere and/or that the defendant made a mistake.

Until you have actually experienced the system firsthand, on either side of the equation, you have no basis for the statements you are making.

Yes, retribution is a big part of the justice system, but as others have said, so are deterrence and incapacitation. Do you really think that the rate of violence will decrease b/c instead of being imprisoned, criminals are coddled and rehabilitated in some facility? Joey Toughshit will see that Jim Fuckhead didn’t have to spend 6 years of his life in a jail cell getting shanked by Mexicans, so he goes out knifing people knowing that the worst possible consequence is some lady in a white uniform giving him medicine and reading him bedtime stories.

Also, the increase in violence from your statistics is not directly related to the function of our punishment system. How much of this violence occurs when law enforcement isn’t around? How much of this violence occurs in locales where law enforcement agencies are understaffed or have shit budgets? Do you really think these figures of yours would be the same if cops patrolled every street corner in the country (and all LEOs were competent)? Sure, you would have some idiots that would break the law regardless, but the majority of people would probably be deterred from committing any crime. [/quote]

An actual response. I’m shocked.

The system merely “taking it into account” doesn’t change that it is a system primarily built upon the notion of vengeance against criminals. The point remains that when someone acts out in this way it falls under one of three categories.
1.Self defense
2.Psychological problem
3.Chemical problem

We can rule out number one, which leaves us with it being psychological or chemical. Both need treatment to be solved. If there are persons who end up “better” due to imprisonment, then fine, but they are an exception. Besides, a competent analysis would show this anyway.

Initially, you would be right that I need first hand experience in or around these prisons and witnessed how these convicts behave after. However, there’s something called “statistics”. Statistics allow us to see the raw numbers independent of emotion, therefore statistics are a superior method to decide how to deal with such behaviour.

Understand, most persons avoid stealing and killing for reasons greater than “because the law says so”. Given that society would first have to come to a point of great compassion for treatment to replace vengeance, I doubt very much that MORE crime would happen as a result of trying to figure out why it occurs in the first place. Besides, being under treatment takes away your freedoms in much the same way that imprisonment does. The difference is convicts would come out with more than just a hardened heart and a wider asshole.

If a persons is so screwed up that they cannot be rehabilitated, then that person needs to be Euthanized. Perhaps this seems cruel, but it is much more compassionate than keeping this person in a cage their entire life at the expense of others. This is also why I doubt persons would suddenly decide it’s a good idea to enact unnecessary violence.

Most acts of homicide are done within high population areas. These also happen to be the areas with the most police protection. I would say that just about all departments are under funded, but that’s just what you get when police protection is under a coercive monopoly.

It’s worth noting that I’m opposed to vengeance as a means of dealing out “justice”, I’m NOT opposed to police protection at all. [/quote]

I think you’re missing out on why a lot of people commit crimes. A lot of it has to do with the environment one is brought up in…and you can’t change one’s environment by simply rehabilitating them. They end up back in the same environment, and they go back to committing crime again. Most recidivists are simply brought up to be criminals and to not respect the system or others in society. The only way to counterract this problem is by locking them up. Many criminals do not want to be rehabilitated. Many see prison as a rite of passage, and they would simply go through the motions if they were put into a rehab program. In fact, it would be easier for them since they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shanked by other guys.

When I said that you didn’t have the experience with the system, I meant that you do not know how our legal system works. It is more efficient than you think. It’s one thing reading about theories of punishment from a textbook, but it’s another thing to actually know how the legal system applies these theories to convictions and sentencing.

Yes, most violence does occur in higher populated cities which have larger police forces, but again, police resources still have to be allocated, and they can’t watch over everyone. Any increase in violent crime is more closely related to the inefficiency of law enforcement than it is to punishment. Most criminals make a reasoned and conscious decision to commit crimes when they believe they can get away with it. If police were in their presence, they probably wouldn’t commit a crime since there’s a greater chance of getting caught and facing punishment. Criminals aren’t just a bunch of retards running around not knowing right from wrong. They make conscious decisions to disregard what’s morally right. The few people who commit crimes that do have mental/psychological problems are given the appropriate rehab in treatment in separate facilities.[/quote]

I believe it’s absolutely possible for anyone to find peace in their lives, but if they just aren’t progressing at all then they have to be euthanized. It’s, unfortunately, the only reasonable thing that can be done. Simply locking them up for an arbitrary amount of time is a stupid idea. It guarantees nothing barely makes an attempt otherwise. If they can be rehabilitated, then rehabilitate them! If they can’t, euthanize them. I personally find a life sentence to be far more cruel than capital punishment.

The legal system is far from efficient. It too is a coercive monopoly and therefore overpriced and under employed. And at the end of the day, the choice is only between letting this violent person go now or putting him in a cage for a while and hope he somehow comes out less crazy.

Only a few criminals have psychological problems? Then are you suggesting it’s mostly chemical? In which case, locking them up is still stupid as it has nothing to do with their chemical problems. Though I think you just have a less broad definition of what constitutes a psychological problem causing violent behavior. To me, any violent act not done to protect yourself comes from a disorder, whether it be psychological or chemical, something is wrong. Persons who are perfectly fine don’t go around hurting others.

Also, if more officers are enough to deter crime, then the problem is not enough officers, NOT that we need harsher punishments and more prisons.

196

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
In what way is communism and dictatorships more lenient than North American politics? You never actually explain why, you just assert it.
[/quote]

Lenient? you must be braindead, corruption very seldom allows for JUSTICE people do get “punished” just not the people that need to be punished, but on a further note please please try and tell me about south africa…

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
In what way is trying to rehabilitate infeasible? It’s done at least in part NOW is it not? Again, you merely assert this with no reasoning behind it.
[/quote]

Well, right now rehabilitation IS being done on people that need it. The resources it would take to rehabilitate all of the criminals that enter the system would be enormous the way things stand now, sure it can be improved but to blame the judicial system for not rehabbing this guy after he commits a crime (your point) is ludicrous.

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
You have to take in to consideration what constitutes as intentional homicide in Saudi Arabia, as well as the utter lack of statistics provided for that area. Saudi Arabia has a very different style of dealing with murder than we do (eg. Diyya). There will always be exceptions from year to year. The trends are what matters.
/quote]

Yes they do have a far different system, a lot more corporal and public punishment. If you are going to go that route … well how can you be so sure about the statistics backing up YOUR POINT?

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
Emotions are a fact of life. Suppressing them only served to aggregate them later. If you supress your emotions long enough, they explode violently. Therefore it is in the best interest of anyone who wishes to avoid unnecessary homicide to fix the problem rather than suppress it. [/quote]

Yeah sure, learn to deal with it or carry the consequences, you are advocating a primal lifestyle and if anything goes wrong it’s because the “system” failed not because you did something wrong. This entitlement is the reason why north america is in trouble economically now and still slipping.

I love how you make a claim without backing and when someone counters you ask for facts.
[/quote]

Okay, Russia’s conviction rate is over 90%. That kicks the shit out of the North American conviction rate (70%). So no, being in Eastern Europe doesn’t make you less likely to go to jail for a crime, it actually makes you more likely. You have more murders (relative to pop.) AND a higher conviction rate. This establishes that stricter laws do not necessitate less crime. Why wouldn’t you look into this before making this assertion is beyond me.

The cost of rehabilitation is a simple matter of economics. Supply and demand. If demand was for rehabilitation over imprisonment, then rehabilitation would be cheaper.

With regards to eastern Europe, there is more information and they have a much similar definition of homicide. Besides, I doubt very much Eastern Europe and Southern Africa would intentionally inflate their own homicide rates. That wouldn’t make any sense at all.

No, America is in economic turmoil because it extracts funding and places it into areas that don’t have the necessary deferred consumption to back up the influx of investors who see the increase in funding and assume demand has risen. That has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. It most certainly is not “primal” to blame society, but that’s not even what I’m saying (in entirety). I’m saying, given that there is SOME problem with these persons, it is far more logical to actually address it than to lock them up for an arbitrary amount of years and hope for the best.

Also, you’re projecting. Up until now, you’ve posted ZERO counter statistics.

197

[quote]rehanb_bl wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

What are you talking about? You’ve made a lot of assertions without an argument here. Where are these holes? How is it not societies problem to understand and fix a problem within society? Does it not follow that understanding and solving is better than suppressing and fighting?

[/quote]
Yeh society fixes it by removing them, displaying that you either abide by the rules or remove yourself from the society

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

Lacking what is “real”? What’s real is already established. Convicts go to prison and are kept there for an arbitrary amount of time in hopes that they’ll just get fixed somewhere along the line. The ideal would be a more compassionate world where criminals aren’t looked upon like sub-human. Ideally, persons would set aside they’re egotistical thirst for vengeance and actually focus on solving the problem. [/quote]

compassion for what? they chose to act knowing the consequences. If i know that putting my finger in a plug is going to electrocute me but I do it all the same , is it now electricity’s fault for not educating me? or for not understanding my problem and rehabilitating me?

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

For what it’s worth, I’m in university.
[/quote]

ask for your money back, you are clearly being screwed over
[/quote]

You only said things already brought up and addressed. Why are you even here? Your post is totally unnecessary.

198

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Yes, but your supposition is based on the fallacy that it is our problem to understand and fix. That is the flaw.

Your premise is flawed and your supporting argument has big holes all throughout. Until you patch those and revise the premise, you can not be right.

When you get to college take a couple of courses on argument and composition.

Before you can synthesize, you need the anti-thesis and the thesis. You are lacking in the anti-thesis.

Translated to common terms- Before you can create a new “something”, you need to take what is real and what is ideal. You are lacking in what is real.

It’s an all too common case of trying to think outside the box without knowing what is in it yet.
[/quote]

Good shit right there. Bravo. On point. [/quote]

No it’s not, he’s just saying things that “sound smart”. There’s no cognitive argument here.

199

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

LOL

Provide your supporting statistics that PUNISHMENT DOES NOT DETER CRIME.[/quote]

I’m assuming you wrote this before looking at my later posts…[/quote]

You provided nothing but two weak statistic with no evidence of causality or, adjusted for other factors - like the lack of law enforcement and law and order in general - particularly in fucking africa of all places. Talk to me about drug crime in those countries that execute for it. Talk to me about homicide in those countries that publicly hang your fucking ass from a high object while you swing and town watches. Stop shop-lifting from those bleeding hearts at “deathpenaltywatch.com” and other similar bleeding heart sites. The only thing wrong with the death penalty is that it is not swift or public enough. [/quote]

I’ve never even heard of that site until now… =/

Your argument is strange. The actions you’ve listed clearly come from a nation even less compassionate than yours, which is why it’s so bat-shit crazy and sucks. If anything, this is an argument for my case. Even stranger still, after bashing these countries for their insanity you end by saying “the death penalty is not swift or public enough”. WTF???

Why are you even talking to me about the death penalty? I’ve already stated that I’m in favour of euthanizing criminals whom absolutely cannot function in society.

Also, you never specified what sort of statistics you wanted. I was left to deduce that you meant violent crime rates relative to the harshness of that countries laws, which I have. I posted only a little information given on the site, feel free to check out the rest of it. If you have another theory for why East Europe and Southern Africa have higher homicide rates, feel free to tell me.[/quote]

Hmmmm, what do all third world countries have in common? Strange that crime would be so high in such poor countries…

This is like trying to argue with Freud about the Id. But I’ll try. Go ahead and explain why you’ve myopically limited the causes for action to those three conditions. I’ll be waiting for proof, thanks.

Also, basic rule of statistics that I thought you may have learned in university by now: correlation does not equal causation. Keep that in mind.

200

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:

It’s specifically BECAUSE plenty of persons get drunk every weekend without cold-cocking someone that this man is peculiar. There’s something wrong with him. Trying to solve the problem rather than just locking him up for a while seems to be the clearly superior method to me, but I guess none of you see that.

Treating him keeps him away from society all the same, so your argument is moot in this respect. As for deterrents, law clearly is not. Violent crime is higher, not lower. Besides, even if it worked as a deterrent, you wouldn’t be solving their psychological and/or chemical problems, you would merely be suppressing it.

Also, you don’t know me or my past so your theory is unfalsifiable and unverifiable, making it pointless.

You think yourself some hardcore realist. Apparently, this is an illusion shared by many on this site. But trust me and I’m being kind when I say, you’re merely deriving an ought from an is. [/quote]

Do you masturbate to ejaculate these pseudo-intellectual cum stains. Are do they merely eject from your mouth like a wet fart, leaving yet another stain in rear?

He’s not peculiar in any sense. There are plenty of idiots in every bar, every night, that haul off and crack someone. I know. Because I had the pleasure of grabbing those anti-social motherfuckers by their neck and showing them the door 100s of times. And although I am no bully, I would be praying those silly motherfuckers would make me the target of their anti-social bullying behavior so that I could unleash my own justice upon these animals. I never got my satisfaction. None of these cowards was stupid enough to direct their aggression in my direction. Well, there were two. I forgot. It didn’t go well for them. And sometimes someone is seriously injured (aggravated assault) or dies (murder, or variations thereof) as a result of those assaults. And when that recklessness results in such an outcome, you have to pay the price - however inconvenient or fucked up prisons are, it’s what we have at the moment. There are those among us that are comfortable with violence, particularly against the weak or weaker among us, and this case is no different, not “peculiar”. It was anything but “peculiar”, it was “typical” and the assault was committed by a cowardly bully.

This is not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation. This is about removing a dangerous (yes, dangerous because he plies his trade against those that are weaker than he) criminal from society, to separate him for his rights, as punishment for his crime. If during those 6 years you want be volunteer as a counselor where he is incarcerated and listen to his story and perhaps masturbate him under the visiting room tables and touch him like his uncle did when he was 5, then have at it. I’d at least respect that commitment, however misguided, as opposed to your liberal musings delivered from your bedroom in Canada.

Hardcore realist? Did you invent that label? If you’re going to invent labels, at least define them for us so that we can follow along with your thoughtstains.

And although violent crime is higher and we live in a violent world, those of us with the higher reasoning skills and moral compass to fit into civilized society, are deterred by the prospect of punishment. I can honestly say I do not give the beatings I would love to deliver and that are richly deserved, because I do not want to be taken from my loved ones and children. I do not want to forfeit my freedoms. Those animals among us with lower reasoning skills, still understand punishment. Remove punishment and crime would rise even higher. Counseling is not punishment. At least the monkeys among us TRY TO GO UNDETECTED FOR THEIR CRIMES. I’m sure they would be much more brazen the minute we get all Canandian-touchy-feely on them and lend an ear to the “my uncle touched my pee pee when I was 4” excuses for their anti-social and violent behavior.

Nice try. Stick to hockey. [/quote]

So this is what passes for wit around here, eh?

He’s peculiar in the same way anyone so quick to be violent is peculiar… I don’t know why you ranted so much about such a small thing. =/

I don’t particularly care about your personal experiences because they are not statistically significant, therefore NOT an argument for a statistically significant course of action. The numbers point towards prisons NOT lowering crime as violent crime is going up.

And why is this not a debate about our prison systems and failures at rehabilitation? Because you say so? Oh, that’s right, YOU came to ME, I suppose that means you have the right to tell me what I’m talking about… =/
Also, I’ve already stated that treatment keeps them away from society all the same, which makes this argument of yours completely redundant. Also, I’m no liberal. In fact you couldn’t be more wrong. What is with persons on this site and drawing such irrational conclusions so prematurely?

I called you a “hardcore realist” because that’s what you’re trying to be. Your argument (excluding the ad hominems, straw mans and non-sequiturs) essentially amounts to “Phh, your sissy “helping people” theory can’t work, violent people need to be imprisoned! Beaten even! That’s how the REAL world works”. Which is psychotic and so far unbacked by any rational reasoning.

So prisons work because it deters persons who already are not prone to violent behavior? WTF? Do you even think about your arguments before you submit them? How utterly pointless a system is if it only deters those who need no deterrents. =/

I mean, you’re absolutely psychotic! You walk around LOOKING for an excuse to hurt persons? You WANT to enact vengeance? The ONLY thing stopping you is the threat of prison? You are every bit as insane as the persons you so virulently seek to attack. [/quote]

LOL

Provide your supporting statistics that PUNISHMENT DOES NOT DETER CRIME.[/quote]

I’m assuming you wrote this before looking at my later posts…[/quote]

You provided nothing but two weak statistic with no evidence of causality or, adjusted for other factors - like the lack of law enforcement and law and order in general - particularly in fucking africa of all places. Talk to me about drug crime in those countries that execute for it. Talk to me about homicide in those countries that publicly hang your fucking ass from a high object while you swing and town watches. Stop shop-lifting from those bleeding hearts at “deathpenaltywatch.com” and other similar bleeding heart sites. The only thing wrong with the death penalty is that it is not swift or public enough. [/quote]

I’ve never even heard of that site until now… =/

Your argument is strange. The actions you’ve listed clearly come from a nation even less compassionate than yours, which is why it’s so bat-shit crazy and sucks. If anything, this is an argument for my case. Even stranger still, after bashing these countries for their insanity you end by saying “the death penalty is not swift or public enough”. WTF???

Why are you even talking to me about the death penalty? I’ve already stated that I’m in favour of euthanizing criminals whom absolutely cannot function in society.

Also, you never specified what sort of statistics you wanted. I was left to deduce that you meant violent crime rates relative to the harshness of that countries laws, which I have. I posted only a little information given on the site, feel free to check out the rest of it. If you have another theory for why East Europe and Southern Africa have higher homicide rates, feel free to tell me.[/quote]

Hmmmm, what do all third world countries have in common? Strange that crime would be so high in such poor countries…

This is like trying to argue with Freud about the Id. But I’ll try. Go ahead and explain why you’ve myopically limited the causes for action to those three conditions. I’ll be waiting for proof, thanks.

Also, basic rule of statistics that I thought you may have learned in university by now: correlation does not equal causation. Keep that in mind.[/quote]

Russia is a third world country? Lol.

The only rational time to use violence is in a situation of self preservation (even then, you could argue the “why’s”, but whatever). If violence is used for another reason then something is wrong. Given that we as humans are limited to physical and mental motivation, if the reason for violence isn’t to preserve oneself it can ONLY be rooted in either the psychical or the mental as those two things literally encompass EVERYTHING. Can you give an example of a persons being violent that has nothing to do with their genetics or mind? I highly doubt it.

Correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation, yes, but causation REQUIRES correlation. Everyone always seems to forget that part. So this becomes a matter of teasing out variables, which is incredibly difficult as we’re dealing with massive amounts of information and there’s a significant lack of ability for any one persons to acquire this information first hand.

But, having said that, since countries with stricter laws have been shown to have higher homicide rates, even if this doesn’t prove less harsh punishments result in less violent crime (whish isn’t actually my argument anyway, but whatever…), it shows more harsh punishments do not equal less violent crime, which is enough for me.