On Ethics

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

The idea that it’s hard wired in the brain is a purely rationalist explanation. Jacobi argued that good and evil exist extrinsic of man and that they can be perceived by man. And that subjective perception implies objective existence.

We don’t all create our own individual morality. We all perceive the same universal morality extrinsic to ourselves. Some distort it and some just breach it but we all know what it is.[/quote]

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

The idea that it’s hard wired in the brain is a purely rationalist explanation. Jacobi argued that good and evil exist extrinsic of man and that they can be perceived by man. And that subjective perception implies objective existence.

We don’t all create our own individual morality. We all perceive the same universal morality extrinsic to ourselves. Some distort it and some just breach it but we all know what it is.[/quote]

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.[/quote]

Jacobi summed it up as there cannot be an “I” without a “thou.” The subject must have an object.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.[/quote]

Jacobi summed it up as there cannot be an “I” without a “thou.” The subject must have an object.[/quote]

Buber were on the same lines, I think. It’s nice, I like that. But the material world is enough to postulate a thou, it’s already by default in contrast to I. There is no reason to expect that an extrinsic origin would be outside the material world.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.[/quote]

Jacobi summed it up as there cannot be an “I” without a “thou.” The subject must have an object.[/quote]

Buber were on the same lines, I think. It’s nice, I like that. But the material world is enough to postulate a thou, it’s already by default in contrast to I. There is no reason to expect that an extrinsic origin would be outside the material world.

[/quote]

That is of course a materialistic argument of course. Materialism is pantheism which leads to atheism/nihilism.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

If intuition rather than reason is a guide for morality, then by what grounds can an intuited morality be judged other than by the person who came up with it, or God?[/quote]

By it’s fruits. In a sense it is pointless to argue about moral systems or their grounds, because in the end most of us know when an act is morally right. We all learn moral principles by very simple means in the playground and from the actions of our parents and other significant adults. Or rather, from the discrepancies between their words and actions.

Not that I would oppose your view any more than OPs. In practice the are no clear cut rational or intuitive bases for our morals or thinking in general. Like Jacobi or Kant we can lean one way or the other, but basically both ways are open to us.

When we get messed up because of too wierd stimuli as a child or because of our own actions as adults, religion do have a great power to straighten us up, though. But not against our will, so the seed and knowledge that we are doing wrong must still be there. I think there are good reasons to think the basics of morality are hardwired in our brains, or in some cases, it just isn’t there.

[/quote]

That ideas of morality are hardwired into our brains are the very things we can rationalize though. We learn this first from Aristotle who took the perspective that we are rational animals. We look to other plants and animals and see how they operate biologically and socially. We can discern by watching them, which of them are flourishing biologically as well as socially compared to plants and animals which is the basis for human flourishing.

So, the reason for creating a category of good morality itself is rooted in the fact that we identify as reasonable and social animals that are capable of flourishing as well as being capable of the opposite.

Think of it as anthrobiological flourishing, and then add social flourishing to the mix… We can actually create a list of physical and mental attributes that a flourishing human can possess, and because we are rational we can amend those attributes as rationality sees fit.

Take a look at the converse… There are plenty of examples of people out there with psychological problems with various diagnosis, such as schizophrenia, psychopathy etc… So we already have an inbred idea of the conduct of a normal human animal, and we know that these examples are not the norm based on what we know of other humans and how they interact etc.

Then there are examples of people who flourish, take a look at Stephen Hawking, though he may not be flourishing physically there is no doubt his mind is and has flourished. It’s apparent to everyone not because of a leap of faith, but because of reason… Reason based on ideals and benchmarks about ourselves. Reason, based on empathy!

Once we understand what an average human is we can establish with reason what a flourishing human is. We can alter our reason as well… A good example of reason in a practical sense that seems contrary to nature is say the rational decision to not have children in the face of say lack of food or overcrowding. We use our faculties/ reason to over-ride primal desires to procreate.

We always amend what is right and wrong given the environment and rationality, which is why a farmer back in the day might not plan on having a child given the way his food stores are, crops etc. But also reason that while there is abundance the time to have children is ideal. If a farmer say has worry that a child will not survive due to lack of food, and he goes ahead and has a kid anyhow we can say something about that farmers morality given the situation, especially if the child dies.

Is this not reason based ethics? They are subject to everyones criticisms because they are based on reason. Ethics based on leaps of faith, and intuition are not subject to reasonable criticism, because the leap of faith itself is the trump.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.[/quote]

Jacobi summed it up as there cannot be an “I” without a “thou.” The subject must have an object.[/quote]

Buber were on the same lines, I think. It’s nice, I like that. But the material world is enough to postulate a thou, it’s already by default in contrast to I. There is no reason to expect that an extrinsic origin would be outside the material world.

[/quote]

That is of course a materialistic argument of course. Materialism is pantheism which leads to atheism/nihilism.
[/quote]

Above all it is the best argument without added assumptions.

It may be unpalatable, but when “unpalatableness” is taken into consideration there are already a host of assumptions in the play and the original question is blurred out of view. Calling it pantheism is just an afterthought and again there is a host of added assumptions.

The only thing it actually says is that we live in a physical world, and we already know that anyway. The interesting thing is why it has the power to cause people distress.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

That ideas of morality are hardwired into our brains are the very things we can rationalize though. We learn this first from Aristotle who took the perspective that we are rational animals. We look to other plants and animals and see how they operate biologically and socially. We can discern by watching them, which of them are flourishing biologically as well as socially compared to plants and animals which is the basis for human flourishing.

So, the reason for creating a category of good morality itself is rooted in the fact that we identify as reasonable and social animals that are capable of flourishing as well as being capable of the opposite.

Think of it as anthrobiological flourishing, and then add social flourishing to the mix… We can actually create a list of physical and mental attributes that a flourishing human can possess, and because we are rational we can amend those attributes as rationality sees fit.

Take a look at the converse… There are plenty of examples of people out there with psychological problems with various diagnosis, such as schizophrenia, psychopathy etc… So we already have an inbred idea of the conduct of a normal human animal, and we know that these examples are not the norm based on what we know of other humans and how they interact etc.

Then there are examples of people who flourish, take a look at Stephen Hawking, though he may not be flourishing physically there is no doubt his mind is and has flourished. It’s apparent to everyone not because of a leap of faith, but because of reason… Reason based on ideals and benchmarks about ourselves. Reason, based on empathy!

Once we understand what an average human is we can establish with reason what a flourishing human is. We can alter our reason as well… A good example of reason in a practical sense that seems contrary to nature is say the rational decision to not have children in the face of say lack of food or overcrowding. We use our faculties/ reason to over-ride primal desires to procreate.

We always amend what is right and wrong given the environment and rationality, which is why a farmer back in the day might not plan on having a child given the way his food stores are, crops etc. But also reason that while there is abundance the time to have children is ideal. If a farmer say has worry that a child will not survive due to lack of food, and he goes ahead and has a kid anyhow we can say something about that farmers morality given the situation, especially if the child dies.

Is this not reason based ethics? They are subject to everyones criticisms because they are based on reason. Ethics based on leaps of faith, and intuition are not subject to reasonable criticism, because the leap of faith itself is the trump.
[/quote]

I don’t have any reason or desire to directly question what you say, but you do mix in a lot of assumptions.
I’ll give you examples:

  • It’s not reasoning that makes hardwiring plausible, but empiricism, tests made to children of various ages. Aristotle didn’t think about brains per se.

  • We probably don’t have a inbread idea of normal human behaviour, there are strong indicators that it is mainly culturally based and it can be proved by looking at cultures and their history.

  • Ideals are by their very nature strongly bound to faith. Hawkings above all believed he was right. To his dismay he has had to refine a good deal and retract parts of his theorems. Like nothing can escape from a black hole.

  • It can be proven that poverty correlates inversely with the amount of children. The poorer the society the more children people tend to make.

Again, I’m not directly denying what you are saying, just pointing out that it is a formidable construction with a lot of inbaked assumptions.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Yeah, I prefer to keep things simple and basic, empirical. Jacobi says basically the same thing but since there is no anchoring in the physical it tends to lead into a metaphysical tangle.

E: claiming extrinsic origin without any clue what this extrinsic is leads into a mess.[/quote]

Jacobi summed it up as there cannot be an “I” without a “thou.” The subject must have an object.[/quote]

Buber were on the same lines, I think. It’s nice, I like that. But the material world is enough to postulate a thou, it’s already by default in contrast to I. There is no reason to expect that an extrinsic origin would be outside the material world.

[/quote]

That is of course a materialistic argument of course. Materialism is pantheism which leads to atheism/nihilism.
[/quote]

Above all it is the best argument without added assumptions.

It may be unpalatable, but when “unpalatableness” is taken into consideration there are already a host of assumptions in the play and the original question is blurred out of view. Calling it pantheism is just an afterthought and again there is a host of added assumptions.

The only thing it actually says is that we live in a physical world, and we already know that anyway. The interesting thing is why it has the power to cause people distress. [/quote]

Materialism holds that we live in an exclusively material world so it is in opposition to revelation.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

That ideas of morality are hardwired into our brains are the very things we can rationalize though. We learn this first from Aristotle who took the perspective that we are rational animals. We look to other plants and animals and see how they operate biologically and socially. We can discern by watching them, which of them are flourishing biologically as well as socially compared to plants and animals which is the basis for human flourishing.

So, the reason for creating a category of good morality itself is rooted in the fact that we identify as reasonable and social animals that are capable of flourishing as well as being capable of the opposite.

Think of it as anthrobiological flourishing, and then add social flourishing to the mix… We can actually create a list of physical and mental attributes that a flourishing human can possess, and because we are rational we can amend those attributes as rationality sees fit.

Take a look at the converse… There are plenty of examples of people out there with psychological problems with various diagnosis, such as schizophrenia, psychopathy etc… So we already have an inbred idea of the conduct of a normal human animal, and we know that these examples are not the norm based on what we know of other humans and how they interact etc.

Then there are examples of people who flourish, take a look at Stephen Hawking, though he may not be flourishing physically there is no doubt his mind is and has flourished. It’s apparent to everyone not because of a leap of faith, but because of reason… Reason based on ideals and benchmarks about ourselves. Reason, based on empathy!

Once we understand what an average human is we can establish with reason what a flourishing human is. We can alter our reason as well… A good example of reason in a practical sense that seems contrary to nature is say the rational decision to not have children in the face of say lack of food or overcrowding. We use our faculties/ reason to over-ride primal desires to procreate.

We always amend what is right and wrong given the environment and rationality, which is why a farmer back in the day might not plan on having a child given the way his food stores are, crops etc. But also reason that while there is abundance the time to have children is ideal. If a farmer say has worry that a child will not survive due to lack of food, and he goes ahead and has a kid anyhow we can say something about that farmers morality given the situation, especially if the child dies.

Is this not reason based ethics? They are subject to everyones criticisms because they are based on reason. Ethics based on leaps of faith, and intuition are not subject to reasonable criticism, because the leap of faith itself is the trump.
[/quote]

I don’t have any reason or desire to directly question what you say, but you do mix in a lot of assumptions.
I’ll give you examples:

  • It’s not reasoning that makes hardwiring plausible, but empiricism, tests made to children of various ages. Aristotle didn’t think about brains per se.

  • We probably don’t have a inbread idea of normal human behaviour, there are strong indicators that it is mainly culturally based and it can be proved by looking at cultures and their history.

  • Ideals are by their very nature strongly bound to faith. Hawkings above all believed he was right. To his dismay he has had to refine a good deal and retract parts of his theorems. Like nothing can escape from a black hole.

  • It can be proven that poverty correlates inversely with the amount of children. The poorer the society the more children people tend to make.

Again, I’m not directly denying what you are saying, just pointing out that it is a formidable construction with a lot of inbaked assumptions.[/quote]

So you believe in pure nurture rather than a combination of nature and nurture, in that you claim there is no hard wiring but learned/ empirical/ a posteriori/ tabula raza?

It might interest you to know that there have been studies on infants that show they have an inborn sense of right and wrong as far as fairness. It seems to stem from the anthropology of us as social animals, which is what some of our morality, and ideas of normal can be based on. There are multiple interpretations of it, and maybe it’s my own bias, simply google moral babies and you will get some interesting information. I was quite moved by the New York times article the Moral Life of Babies. The Moral Life of Babies - The New York Times of course there are other articles that aim to refute this one which I think are also important to consider.

Further in Psychology we know that there are gratifications that start physically, and then there are gratifications that are idealized that start mentally. Specifically I’m talking about Top Down vs. Bottom Up. The nature and nurture of psychology… Feeling All the Feels: Crash Course Psychology #25 - YouTube

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Above all it is the best argument without added assumptions.

It may be unpalatable, but when “unpalatableness” is taken into consideration there are already a host of assumptions in the play and the original question is blurred out of view. Calling it pantheism is just an afterthought and again there is a host of added assumptions.

The only thing it actually says is that we live in a physical world, and we already know that anyway. The interesting thing is why it has the power to cause people distress. [/quote]

Materialism holds that we live in an exclusively material world so it is in opposition to revelation.
[/quote]

It is you who speak of materialism, I pointed out what is the most straightforward way of postulating “thou”.

But then we are back to question nr 1. Where does this objective transcendent moral order reside? Since it is not in the physical world, what would that world be? “Thou” is not enough to prove this other world, however nice the thought is in itself or how urgent the need of its existence is perceived to be.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

So you believe in pure nurture rather than a combination of nature and nurture, in that you claim there is no hard wiring but learned/ empirical/ a posteriori/ tabula raza?

It might interest you to know that there have been studies on infants that show they have an inborn sense of right and wrong as far as fairness. It seems to stem from the anthropology of us as social animals, which is what some of our morality, and ideas of normal can be based on. There are multiple interpretations of it, and maybe it’s my own bias, simply google moral babies and you will get some interesting information.

Further in Psychology we know that there are gratifications that start physically, and then there are gratifications that are idealized that start mentally. [/quote]

Please read what I wrote. English is not my first or even second language, but I don’t think I expressed myself that badly.

The things that point to possible hardwiring are the tests you are referring to. It’s empiricism, the proof (or indication or pudding) is not in the rationalization as you said, its in the result of the tests. The procedure is “let’s test small children and see what we get. To meet the reguirements of good testing practise let’s assume we get the result X.”

We probably don’t have an inbred conception of normal behaviour. It is learned. What we probably have is a developmental window when we are very malleable in this aspect. Look at cases of wolf children. There are indications that even the role of a mother (just feeding the baby) has to be learned.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

It is you who speak of materialism, I pointed out what is the most straightforward way of postulating “thou”.

But then we are back to question nr 1. Where does this objective transcendent moral order reside?

[/quote]

Where does the law of gravity reside? Gravity is simply the observation that mass conforms to certain rules on the non-quantum level. Gravity like everything else needs a causal agent but it doesn’t need to be personified. A moral law is not simply a rule that something adheres to. It requires a sentient being with free will to perceive its existence then use free will to adhere to it. Universal moral law implies the existence of a law giver - it implies the “thou.”

Not prove no, but it implies its existence. And ontological arguments about the nature of the moral order aside, I believe that attempting to adhere to this moral order is essential for mans’ spiritual health and that this universal moral “force” is altogether to be trusted.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

So you believe in pure nurture rather than a combination of nature and nurture, in that you claim there is no hard wiring but learned/ empirical/ a posteriori/ tabula raza?

It might interest you to know that there have been studies on infants that show they have an inborn sense of right and wrong as far as fairness. It seems to stem from the anthropology of us as social animals, which is what some of our morality, and ideas of normal can be based on. There are multiple interpretations of it, and maybe it’s my own bias, simply google moral babies and you will get some interesting information.

Further in Psychology we know that there are gratifications that start physically, and then there are gratifications that are idealized that start mentally. [/quote]

Please read what I wrote. English is not my first or even second language, but I don’t think I expressed myself that badly.

The things that point to possible hardwiring are the tests you are referring to. It’s empiricism, the proof (or indication or pudding) is not in the rationalization as you said, its in the result of the tests. The procedure is “let’s test small children and see what we get. To meet the reguirements of good testing practise let’s assume we get the result X.”

We probably don’t have an inbred conception of normal behaviour. It is learned. What we probably have is a developmental window when we are very malleable in this aspect. Look at cases of wolf children. There are indications that even the role of a mother (just feeding the baby) has to be learned.[/quote]

How can we not reach understanding that there is an inbred sense of normal as a species of animal that form communities, similar to our cousins the Chimps?

While the Chimps may have no moral right and wrong sense, we have rationality that can allow us to assign what we call good and bad to them based on what it means to be a flourishing chimp.

Dogs, and wolves, these pack animals also have ways to teach their young boundaries, by scolding them with a growl or a show of aggression with a tight face and teeth. Are you saying those are all learned and passed down from generation wolf to generation wolf?

Where say Chimps may learn of specific fruits and methods of hunting, gathering in ways we know are learned, it seems like wolves as a species that is part of a pack or a social species there are certain qualities about the species, specifically if it is a highly social, cooperative species that they/we start off with, that is instinctual or hardwired. It’s a combination of a priori and a posteriori. Some stuff is necessarily learned, while there are certain things quintessential that, imo must be hardwired. There are examples of it all over nature with animals that don’t have language or similar faculties as our own.

Otherwise, how would a social species that exists in communities come to exist?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Where does the law of gravity reside? Gravity is simply the observation that mass conforms to certain rules on the non-quantum level. Gravity like everything else needs a causal agent but it doesn’t need to be personified. A moral law is not simply a rule that something adheres to. It requires a sentient being with free will to perceive its existence then use free will to adhere to it. Universal moral law implies the existence of a law giver - it implies the “thou.”

Not prove no, but it implies its existence. And ontological arguments about the nature of the moral order aside, I believe that attempting to adhere to this moral order is essential for mans’ spiritual health and that this universal moral “force” is altogether to be trusted.
[/quote]

Gravity can be calculated to a very high precision, but without sentience there’s no-one calculating. Moral behaviour again is very hard to predict. So I see no implication for a transcendental order, at least not of a kind that can be compared to natural laws defined by man. Too many assumptions.

But I agree with that spiritual health and trust part.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Gravity can be calculated to a very high precision,

[/quote]

First look at what “calculating gravity” actually means. It requires an “I” and an “it.” I the observer and it the matter. The observer merely perceives that matter always behaves in a certain way. The reason that matter always behaves in a certain way does not necessarily suggest a personified causal agent. But the existence of a moral law implies a personified causal agent - a law giver.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

How can we not reach understanding that there is an inbred sense of normal as a species of animal that form communities, similar to our cousins the Chimps?

While the Chimps may have no moral right and wrong sense, we have rationality that can allow us to assign what we call good and bad to them based on what it means to be a flourishing chimp.

Dogs, and wolves, these pack animals also have ways to teach their young boundaries, by scolding them with a growl or a show of aggression with a tight face and teeth. Are you saying those are all learned and passed down from generation wolf to generation wolf?

Where say Chimps may learn of specific fruits and methods of hunting, gathering in ways we know are learned, it seems like wolves as a species that is part of a pack or a social species there are certain qualities about the species, specifically if it is a highly social, cooperative species that they/we start off with, that is instinctual or hardwired. It’s a combination of a priori and a posteriori. Some stuff is necessarily learned, while there are certain things quintessential that, imo must be hardwired. There are examples of it all over nature with animals that don’t have language or similar faculties as our own.

Otherwise, how would a social species that exists in communities come to exist? [/quote]

Dogs and wolves are different from primates. The role of instinctual behaviour is much bigger, so we shouldn’t speak of them in this context. Primares must be thaught. The role of instinctual behaviour is much smaller.

A zoo gorilla that hasn’t seen other gorillas nurturing baby gorillas simply can’t do anything. With the exception of sucking and yelling to get the attention we need, we don’t have much instinctual behaviour. And that means we must learn to be human. Obviously we must have what it takes to become human. Opposable thumbs, right kind of larynx and a certain kind of cortex and some other features.

About your last question. That is precisely a question we can not answer without numerous small steps, without testing. We can’t think an answer because there are too many unknown factors.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Gravity can be calculated to a very high precision,

[/quote]

First look at what “calculating gravity” actually means. It requires an “I” and an “it.” I the observer and it the matter. The observer merely perceives that matter always behaves in a certain way. The reason that matter always behaves in a certain way does not necessarily suggest a personified causal agent. But the existence of a moral law implies a personified causal agent - a law giver. [/quote]

I understood that, but as we can see from our conversation, we can’t agree about the existence of a moral law, not to mention a law giver. Too many assumptions. We couldn’t agree that the existence of morals necessitates any cause beyond the physical world.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I enjoyed the On Government thread and so I thought we might discuss ethics. I’ll start this with Friedrich Jacobi’s accusation against Kantian philosophy: (Paraphrasing) If you don’t believe in an objective transcendent moral order then you are essentially a nihilist. Which leads to my question, why do you behave as if an objective transcendent moral order exists if you don’t believe one does?[/quote]

The Categorical Imperative is Nihilistic without a God? Then why am I not a Nihilist?

The Categorical Imperative= Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.

This is for the most part another way to put the Golden rule of do unto others, except it’s to be interpreted in two ways. On top of this, the Categorical Imperative has a flaw in that it relies on a persons nature, but the same can be said for the golden rule of do unto others. If you want to die, you should go kill people is a possible way to interpret the golden rule… So…

On one hand you aren’t supposed to entertain maxims that are foul, but if you yourself are foul like say a Murderer and a mad person you could get away with murder being an everyday thing so long as you can will it to be a rule for everyone. But, at the same time you are supposed to consider in your own mind, if you are allowed to do such a thing then you okay it for everyone in the world to act according to the way you act.

So in the case of compulsive liars or murderers if everyone acted the way they acted the world would be in chaos and death, much as it is today.

For Mormons and Christians such as Romney and others who have shit loads of children, they have to be okay with every swinging dick and vagina having 20 kids. Considering the lack of land and resources one could consider this suicidal. The Categorical Imperative requires a person to be a localized Cosmopolitan.

The other interesting aspect of Kant are his ranks of goodness and how they are linked to duty. Some people have duty to God as Kant did… Kant considers happiness a thing of happenstance or chance rather than something necessarily connected to doing good. I’ve given this example before, but if there are two people who donate time or money to a good cause, and one person does so out of duty, while the other person does so because it makes them feel happy, the person who does good deeds out of Duty is the one doing the greater good. The reason is, because if the person feeling happiness as a motivation stops feeling happiness then they will stop doing the good thing, while the person doing things out of duty will do them whether they make them feel happy or not.

A lot of Kants morality depends on the workings of the person. Kant’s works influence my ideas of right in a cosmopolitan way… I have no belief in God, nor do I feel a duty to God. Yet, I’m still considered a good person according to my actions and volition by most people. And by most people it isn’t limited to the typical views in the United States.

I’m not a Nihilist, but I’m an agnostic and I subscribe to Kantian views. Therefore, you are wrong. Why do I follow moral rules without a God? Because most humans have this thing called empathy. Empathy along with ideas of cosmopolitanism leads to superior morality. No need for God. [/quote]

It sounds like you apply the ‘taxi cab fallacy’ to moral law. It takes you where you want to go and you just get off at that stop, but it doesn’t solve the issue as to what the source of morality is.
You say that the person who gives out of duty does the greater ‘good’ than the person who receives the reward of happiness for giving. But aren’t you subscribing Kantian styled morality because it makes you happy? Without a belief in moral agency you are not doing it out of duty.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Is it always moraly wrong to lie? Is stealing? How about killing?

Seems to me that the moral absolutist, is only one funky situation away from being a situational ethicist.

Great discussion BTW, good thread.[/quote]

I don’t think anybody is arguing for moral absolutism vs. situational ethics.

That’s different than objective moral values vs. moral relativism.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

Difficult to say anything about that. I can’t even fathom what an excusively rational system would be like.Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã? [/quote]

By “faith” Jacobi really meant “intuition” - intuition meaning the ability to immediately recognise an essential truth. And that the subjective experience of these truths implies that they have an objective existence.[/quote]

I do grant intuition as much value as reason or intellect or whatever. So in that sense I understand the reasoning. I don’t know, for the time being I just accept that they point in different directions, or at least that appears to be the case. Actually it doesn’t even bother me, since the behavioural result is the same, just the scope of the (transcendent) moral order is different.

E: Actually, intuitive truth just is, I don’t try to connect it with reasoning. I leads to metaphysical constructions that I find unhelpful…[/quote]

What if your intuition is flawed? People are not intuitively like minded.