Oh Great! Govt Healthcare

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tancredi wrote:

…So you loose quote[/quote] a little bit of freedom when the government takes over health care. I don’t give a rats ass about that and fail to see why I should…[/quote]

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Benjamin Fucking Franklin

Tancredi my friend, you are a looser (sic). Stay on your knees, you look comfortable there.[/quote]

Push, I don’t ask for your sympathy. Have sympathy for yourself for there may come a day that you, too, find yourself in the gutter.

My family plays by the rules. I play by the rules to the hilt. The rules fucking failed for my family, for myself (to a degree) and for countless tens of millions of hard-working americans. Is it not reasonable to change them when they have so clearly failed?

Sticking your head in the sand will not save you. You are not rich, unless you happen to be on the scale of Tim Patterson, and can still ‘loose’.

Do you really think you’re invincable? Push, I’d wonder why you seem to think you’re John Galt or something. You and I are still just another corpse at the end of the day.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have”. ~Thomas Jefferson[/quote]

They’re already big enough for that. And they already give everything corporations and a certain class want. What solution do you have then?

[quote]Tancredi wrote:

[quote]cord13 wrote:
exactly. health insurance is a business, which means their goal is to make money. If you can’t afford health insurance you can pay full price for your doctor visits. if you can’t afford the doctor, you can just tough it out next time you get the sniffles.[/quote]

My father worked for an american company for 30 years, paid into his insurance every single one of those years. He worked his way up from the line into management.

Then one day the company was brought, sold, and he was downsized since he was getting pretty close to retirement, and they didn’t want to pay.

My mother started working for wal-mart when my father went back to school at the age of 57. They paid their cobra until it ran out, and started on a partial insurance offered by walmart for the first 6 months of employment. During those first 6 months the coverage was limited to oh-so many dollars, I don’t remember how much.

My brother broke his leg in 5 places wrestling for 1st place in the district meet for the state championship. They covered it, but only after much haggling and nearly exhausting the limit. A lot of rehab care was left out due to cost. Can’t really tough out a leg broken in 5 places. Thank god this didn’t stop him and now he is a E-7 in the army, despite having a leg 1 inch shorter than the other.

A couple months later my father had a clot discovered in his heart, that threatened to come loose any minute and kill him. Emergency quintuple bypass surgry was necessary. Not much coverage was left, but we decided since we love him we’ll do what we can and thank god we had great credit and. . . .charged half of it on a visa, and had the hospital bill us the rest. It was difficult, but they still have the house, thank god. And he finished school, and found a new job at 59. Can’t tough out these sniffles.

As for me, I’m a medical clusterfuck in the eyes of the insurance companies and hence uninsurable. I’m perfectly physically and mentally healthy but my history won’t let me buy anything affordable. But I can’t let my coverage lest I literally loose one of my senses completely, my hearing. I speak and hear and loosing my hearing would be suicide for my social life and for my job.

I’ve come close to getting good group insurance via my jobs in industrial maintenance and drafting at a engineering firm, but both times buisness slowed down. I’m on pernament call at the engineering place. I now receive SSI and Medicare and deliver pizza the maximum I can without loosing benefits. I hate it. But I can’t simply tough out not hearing for a period of time-my ablitiy to get a job would be comprimised.

So you loose a little bit of freedom when the government takes over health care. I don’t give a rats ass about that and fail to see why I should. I and my family have been extremely lucky to get any care at all. A few $$ in the bank saved my dad, and despite doing everything “right” barely got the care he needed.

Fuck privately run insurance companies. I’ll take my chances with obamacare.[/quote]

So looking at now and fifty years ago. Fifty years ago hospital bills were cheaper, insurance was cheaper, there was less stress when getting procedures that needed to be done because they did not cost a lot. However, compared to now people cannot pay for most things out of pocket, insurance cost more, and the stress related with going to the hospital is much higher.

So the difference between now and insurance fifty years ago, is fifty years ago insurance was rarely regulated, it now has a ‘little regulation’ which in fact does not. It has a lot of regulation, and it has become more expensive over the years. So you say you want ObamaCare, I think you should rethink that.

[quote]Tancredi wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have”. ~Thomas Jefferson[/quote]

They’re already big enough for that. And they already give everything corporations and a certain class want. What solution do you have then?[/quote]

What are these classes and where is your empirical evidence to show these different classes? I think you mean they already give everything ‘certain’ corporations and certain ‘individuals’ want. Don’t be ignorant.

[quote]thefederalist wrote:
haha. you guys have proven that you don’t know jefferson from hamilton. you fail middle school Civics, high school American History and PolSci 101. it’s funny, sometimes I actually pray for push to show up so I can actually debate someone with half a brain. [/quote]

well then, the pic is very apropos…and yes he and Jefferson were diametrically opposed on states rights.

[quote]Tancredi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Tancredi wrote:

…So you loose quote[/quote] a little bit of freedom when the government takes over health care. I don’t give a rats ass about that and fail to see why I should…[/quote]

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Benjamin Fucking Franklin

Tancredi my friend, you are a looser (sic). Stay on your knees, you look comfortable there.[/quote]

Push, I don’t ask for your sympathy. Have sympathy for yourself for there may come a day that you, too, find yourself in the gutter.

My family plays by the rules. I play by the rules to the hilt. The rules fucking failed for my family, for myself (to a degree) and for countless tens of millions of hard-working americans. Is it not reasonable to change them when they have so clearly failed?

Sticking your head in the sand will not save you. You are not rich, unless you happen to be on the scale of Tim Patterson, and can still ‘loose’.

Do you really think you’re invincable? Push, I’d wonder why you seem to think you’re John Galt or something. You and I are still just another corpse at the end of the day. [/quote]

“Rules?..there are no rules. We’re trying to accomplish something here.” Thomas Edison
I don’t have a lot of time I have a meeting to attend so I’m going to put this as blunt and moronic so anyone can understand.

Stop being a pussy fucking fagget and stop dreaming that your 9 to 5 is the fucking end all be all of answers. Get off your fat fucking asses and do something yourselves…not for your boss’ not for your employeres, not for the fucking banks that own your asses. THINK OUTSIDE THE FUCKING BOX…The greatest minds in history didn’t become them by following the CROWD/HISTORY/OR RULES.

FUCK!

\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive. However, it is, by far, the best in the world. Why is that? BECAUSE WE PAY FOR IT. It’s American drug companies that have come up with shit that would have been unthinkable 50 years ago, because they have the cash for R&D. It’s American doctors that come up with Earth shattering procedures because our best and brightest become doctors so they can get paid a shit load of money. It’s American companies that come up with these great gadgets to look inside of us because they know they will make it up on the back end.

It is often argued that medical costs have gone up by some huge percentage over inflation in the last 50 years. The left will argue that the drug companies, insurance companies, and greedy doctors are the reason for this. Wrong. It’s because healthcare is a huge percentage BETTER than it was 50 years ago. Back then, some doctor took your temperature then basically guessed what was wrong with you. Now, there is all kinds of shit to give you a correct diagnosis.

Also, drug companies charge a bunch of money for two reasons, 1) they can and 2) it costs a hell of a lot of money to create those drugs.

As for the “greedy doctors”: Do you realize what a huge gamble it is to go to medical school these days. These folks are getting out of med school around $200K-$300K in debt so that they can learn this craft. What if they fail their licensing exam? What if they wash out during internship? If I made it through that gauntlet, you’re goddamn right I’m going to charge a lot of money for what I do. I gots me some billz to pay!

When it is reported that the huge insurance companies make, say, $5 billion a year, everybody gets up in arms over these profits and calls them criminals. When you break down the numbers it’s a little bit less impressive. UnitedHealth insures almost 1/3 of America. That’s around 100 million people. They make about $52 per year on each person they insure. Their profit margins are in the neighborhood of 4.4%. 4.4%! That’s it! Hell, I would be willing to pay them $52 per year just to take care of the paperwork that they do for me.

Now, compare that 4.4% to, say, a major oil company (the Left’s other favorite target) with a profit margin of around 6.8-7.0% at the height of the oil boom in 2007. Now, lets compare those to Microsoft. Around 22%. Not 2.2%, but twenty fucking two percent. Who’s the criminal, now?

Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

Then I’ll have to pay more for unemployment for all the clowns that can actually work but are too fucking lazy to find a job. (And yes, there are jobs out there - it’s just so much easier to just get unemployment!) [/quote]

Not to take this off topic, but I have to take issue with this section of your post.

I was discharged from active duty Army last June. I had an Iraq deployment under my belt, as a company level (168 personnel) XO, no less. I have a resume that most men and women at my age would be jealous of. I began actively looking for jobs in May. Guess how many jobs I found that suited my skill level, income, and experience? Zero. I used head-hunters and all sorts of internet job finders to no avail.

In September I finally decided to start my own business. So far so good.

I just think it is a bit misleading to say that people receiving unemployment are too lazy to find a job. It isn’t that simple.

[/quote]

Not to take this thread further off topic, but what sort of company did you form, business wise, a sole proprietor? S-Corp? etc.

I think Chris Rock said it best, ‘the American drug companies are nothing but a fancy drug dealer. They can’t cure shit. The same diseases are around that have been here for 50 years. What was the last thing ‘they’ cured? P o l i o!?’ I just thought it was funny ; )

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive . . . . Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant[/quote]

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I think Chris Rock said it best, ‘the American drug companies are nothing but a fancy drug dealer. They can’t cure shit. The same diseases are around that have been here for 50 years. What was the last thing ‘they’ cured? P o l i o!?’ I just thought it was funny ; )

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive . . . . Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, if you ever get diabetes or a heart attack, simply dont take your medicine and let us know how that works for you.

Oh wait, you wont be able to.

Bummer.

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive. However, it is, by far, the best in the world. Why is that? BECAUSE WE PAY FOR IT. It’s American drug companies that have come up with shit that would have been unthinkable 50 years ago, because they have the cash for R&D. It’s American doctors that come up with Earth shattering procedures because our best and brightest become doctors so they can get paid a shit load of money. It’s American companies that come up with these great gadgets to look inside of us because they know they will make it up on the back end.

It is often argued that medical costs have gone up by some huge percentage over inflation in the last 50 years. The left will argue that the drug companies, insurance companies, and greedy doctors are the reason for this. Wrong. It’s because healthcare is a huge percentage BETTER than it was 50 years ago. Back then, some doctor took your temperature then basically guessed what was wrong with you. Now, there is all kinds of shit to give you a correct diagnosis.

Also, drug companies charge a bunch of money for two reasons, 1) they can and 2) it costs a hell of a lot of money to create those drugs.

As for the “greedy doctors”: Do you realize what a huge gamble it is to go to medical school these days. These folks are getting out of med school around $200K-$300K in debt so that they can learn this craft. What if they fail their licensing exam? What if they wash out during internship? If I made it through that gauntlet, you’re goddamn right I’m going to charge a lot of money for what I do. I gots me some billz to pay!

When it is reported that the huge insurance companies make, say, $5 billion a year, everybody gets up in arms over these profits and calls them criminals. When you break down the numbers it’s a little bit less impressive. UnitedHealth insures almost 1/3 of America. That’s around 100 million people. They make about $52 per year on each person they insure. Their profit margins are in the neighborhood of 4.4%. 4.4%! That’s it! Hell, I would be willing to pay them $52 per year just to take care of the paperwork that they do for me.

Now, compare that 4.4% to, say, a major oil company (the Left’s other favorite target) with a profit margin of around 6.8-7.0% at the height of the oil boom in 2007. Now, lets compare those to Microsoft. Around 22%. Not 2.2%, but twenty fucking two percent. Who’s the criminal, now?

Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant[/quote]

Scapegoatting is as old as man himself.

Look at how the EU is scapegoatting capitalist speculators for driving down the price of Greek and Spanish bonds. Its not vampire governments and parasite populations that are spoiling the party, its those evil speculators!

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I think Chris Rock said it best, ‘the American drug companies are nothing but a fancy drug dealer. They can’t cure shit. The same diseases are around that have been here for 50 years. What was the last thing ‘they’ cured? P o l i o!?’ I just thought it was funny ; )

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive . . . . Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant[/quote]
[/quote]

What are you?? Some kind of hippie?

I am in med school at the moment (sadly enough in Europe) and 99% of all the top scientific journals & articles are American.
What USA has been doing the past few years has produced QUALITY. Not only in health care. So obviously they’re doing something correctly.
For what it’s worth, my uncle is a gynaecologist in the USA and he told me this Obamacare would be disastrous for him.

Some people might die in the USA because they can’t pay for medical care, that is bad, I agree. Every system has strong and weak points. This is a weak point but there are more strong points. Collateral damage and luck always plays a role, but let’s not get too emotional.

What it really boils down to, is this. In Europe / socialism you might work hard and gain money but your gains are not fair compared to your efforts. If you fuck up, you RECEIVE money to live your life in a not too bad way. This kills RESPONSABILITY. In the USA if you fuck up, well you’re truly fucked. You need to be responsible and get your shit together.
This is why the USA will ALWAYS remain one of the best(if not the best) because people are learned to be responsible.

Not to mention governments have nobody to respond to (in theory to the civilians but everybody knows this is not gonna happen since they control the police, the military and every civilian is watching 4 hours tv every day), as a consequence they become horribly inefficient (you wouldn’t believe it if I gave examples of Belgium).

Please let America be America.
If you don’t like it, move to Europe.

my 2 cents…

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

Then I’ll have to pay more for unemployment for all the clowns that can actually work but are too fucking lazy to find a job. (And yes, there are jobs out there - it’s just so much easier to just get unemployment!) [/quote]

Not to take this off topic, but I have to take issue with this section of your post.

I was discharged from active duty Army last June. I had an Iraq deployment under my belt, as a company level (168 personnel) XO, no less. I have a resume that most men and women at my age would be jealous of. I began actively looking for jobs in May. Guess how many jobs I found that suited my skill level, income, and experience? Zero. I used head-hunters and all sorts of internet job finders to no avail.

In September I finally decided to start my own business. So far so good.

I just think it is a bit misleading to say that people receiving unemployment are too lazy to find a job. It isn’t that simple.

[/quote]

I have to ask this question. Are you looking all over the country, or just in the city you are currently residing? I think this is the issue the OP has with Unemployment. There are jobs here in the South, but people up north are not willing to move. They beleive the jobs have to come to them. During the depression men moved all over the country to find a job, and when money was good the rest of the family moved.[/quote]

This is a good question. The head-hunters I used suggested I relocate. This, of course, is after I had moved back to my home town and bought a house my wife and I really liked. I was willing to make long commutes if need be. And despite buying a new house, I would have been open to relocating if the job was worth it.

You make valid points, but I just think it is unfair and inaccurate to make such a general statement that the OP made. There are some individuals out there that are, as the OP said, too lazy to get a job.

However, everyone has a different set of circumstances that they have to deal with.[/quote]

Dustin

Stick with you own business. It’s the best decision I ever made.

And the job market is incredibly difficult right now. It’s hard for very qualified folks to get a new job. I’ve never begrudged anyone unemployment compensation. They paid into it and earned it so if they need it they should get it. As an employer I’ve never disputed a claim, not once, even if I fired the guy for something. I just don’t want the bad karma and eventually those people find jobs, and some become customers.

I actually see things picking up. I had some friends that were long term unemployed, over 6 mos., and they are starting to get more interviews and jobs.

As a business owner, however, Obamacare, will raise my costs and increase my taxes. Both are disincentives to growth and expansion. In fact this administration has been a disaster for small business. It has destroyed customer confidence. If some of the core issues the Democrats and Obama embrace come to pass, I think you will see a long term recession take hold with negative growth. Obamacare is a disaster in the making, like the tariff act during the great depression.

[quote]Xav wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I think Chris Rock said it best, ‘the American drug companies are nothing but a fancy drug dealer. They can’t cure shit. The same diseases are around that have been here for 50 years. What was the last thing ‘they’ cured? P o l i o!?’ I just thought it was funny ; )

[quote]Boomhower113 wrote:
\rant

People gripe and moan about the cost of healthcare (which, I agree, is expensive) without realizing a few things. Yes, our healthcare system is expensive . . . . Maybe we should be going after computer companies for “gouging the American people” and demanding “Electronic Reform”.

/rant[/quote]
[/quote]

What are you?? Some kind of hippie?

I am in med school at the moment (sadly enough in Europe) and 99% of all the top scientific journals & articles are American.
What USA has been doing the past few years has produced QUALITY. Not only in health care. So obviously they’re doing something correctly.
For what it’s worth, my uncle is a gynaecologist in the USA and he told me this Obamacare would be disastrous for him.

Some people might die in the USA because they can’t pay for medical care, that is bad, I agree. Every system has strong and weak points. This is a weak point but there are more strong points. Collateral damage and luck always plays a role, but let’s not get too emotional.

What it really boils down to, is this. In Europe / socialism you might work hard and gain money but your gains are not fair compared to your efforts. If you fuck up, you RECEIVE money to live your life in a not too bad way. This kills RESPONSABILITY. In the USA if you fuck up, well you’re truly fucked. You need to be responsible and get your shit together.
This is why the USA will ALWAYS remain one of the best(if not the best) because people are learned to be responsible.

Not to mention governments have nobody to respond to (in theory to the civilians but everybody knows this is not gonna happen since they control the police, the military and every civilian is watching 4 hours tv every day), as a consequence they become horribly inefficient (you wouldn’t believe it if I gave examples of Belgium).

Please let America be America.
If you don’t like it, move to Europe.

my 2 cents…
[/quote]

Brilliance right here.

This is what I have been trying to get across for some time now.

In the US if you are the little guy (i.e., not politically connected) you get to fail. This is not true for the politically connected class.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m gaining a new appreciation for Obama – he’s a more clever con artist than I thought. By putting in the clause about pre-existing conditions and making the fines low for not having health insurance, then more people will wait until they are sick before buying insurance. Afterall, they can’t be turned down. Thus the private insurers will go out of business, leaving gov’t in charge.[/quote]

that is the ultimate plan. too bad more people can’t see that. Obama was publicly in favor of a single payer plan until he realized the public was too much against it. Now he is going to screw the insurance companies until they shut down.

Social security (bankrupt); medicare (bankrupt); medicaid (bankrupt); Amtrak (bankrupt); the Post Office (bankrupt). The preceding displays the obvious outcome of any industry either outright controlled by government or even subsidized and heavily regulated by government.

It is important to keep in mind that government’s ability regarding efficiency will always remain in the negative. Its ability to simply confiscate the wealth of anyone the political class desires naturally creates a situation where the frailties of human nature are exponentially magnified. In this case, any given individual naturally are significantly more careful with the earnings they acquired through sweat and toil as opposed to spending someone else wealth.

In a socialist-style system for health care or one in which government heavily regulates and subsidizes a health care system (as the US currently does), costs will naturally experience a significant increase due to the subsidies it receives from confiscated money. Unsurprisingly, when taxpayer dollars are spent and health care suddenly become “free” it becomes used by the public to a higher degree. Since ones tax dollars are paying for this service one will naturally desire to “get the most out of it” by utilizing such services on occasions when it would be unnecessary to do so.

In the US, its costs have dramatically increased due to a serious lack of competition, endless pages of regulatory controls, and government subsidies to the health care and prescription drug industries. To reduce such costs, price controls or rationing (the former would eventually lead to the latter in any case) must take place to prevent the economic breakdown of such a system. Such prince controls however, will not only lead to rationing of the services of doctors and nurses (if wage controls are implemented) but also of the equipment necessary to perform the tasks required.

It is also important to remember that the idea of universal health care was first implemented by the Bolsheviks of old The Soviet Union, which implemented the complete socialization of the industry. The following, written by former economic adviser to the Soviet government Yuri Maltsev, describes the situation of such a system. As follows:

What Soviet Medicine Teaches Us [by: Yuri Maltsev]

Below are a series of articles, scholarly journals, and video/audio lectures that describe the problems with the present system in the United States as well as why socialized health care is not the proper solution to the problem. As follows:

The Health Care Reader

The public doesn’t seem to approve of what Congress is doing…

Don’t know why the above gif doesn’t show. I’ll try with a jpeg conversion: