Occidental and Oriental Philosophies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

you don’t need confucianism or buddhism to explain China’s isolationism during the 1500’s… Because China was NOT isolationist during this period.

China was definitely imperialist… on its own continent.
China was busy conquering Tibet, expanding to the North and the West, trading with India and Japan, dominating Korea and the whole South-East Asia, and, last but not least, colonizing (in the true meaning of the word) its own ginormous territory.

you don’t need a Phd in Philosophy and History of Religions to explain why a continental super-power never tried to become an adventurous thalassocracy.

that’s pretty self-explanatory, actually.

222

[quote]kamui wrote:
you don’t need confucianism or buddhism to explain China’s isolationism during the 1500’s… Because China was NOT isolationist during this period.

China was definitely imperialist… on its own continent.
China was busy conquering Tibet, expanding to the North and the West, trading with India and Japan, dominating Korea and the whole South-East Asia, and, last but not least, colonizing (in the true meaning of the word) its own ginormous territory.

you don’t need a Phd in Philosophy and History of Religions to explain why a continental super-power never tried to become an adventurous thalassocracy.

that’s pretty self-explanatory, actually.

[/quote]

How does that differ with the idea that China did not send voyages to foreign lands because it was focused on itself?

What do you see as some of the benefits and/or defining features of Eastern philosophy and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?

223

[quote]Cortes wrote:

The primary reason Japan shut up shop around 1600 for the most part and remained a peaceful feudal society until it was forced open by Perry in 1854 had far less to do with eastern philosophy as it did the political and societal realities of the country at that time.

[/quote]

Perhaps their defeat in the Imjin war had something to do with it too. Korea was the leading naval power after Hasan Island.

224

[quote]pat wrote:

Because he is responding to your baseless attack that also has nothing to do with the topic either. I treat people as they treat me. I get ‘chippy’ as you say, when I a dealt with in a negative way or I am responded to with ad hominems rather than counter points related to the subject or my responses.
I don’t go around calling people idiots just because I don’t like what they say. But if I am attacked, I will defend myself.[/quote]

Is he responding? Or you now? Are you a couple?

You’re just as negative when cornered. Get some self-awareness. Soon.

I will also continue to defend myself, when it suits me.

225

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

I say this with all sincerity; you sir, are a babbling idiot. [/quote]

Aren’t you trying to set up a fight over in GAL for being called a ‘bitch?’ ‘Cherry-pick’ a few more ‘truths,’ as you’ve got a long way to go before you grow up. No, I don’t want your number. Or, to meet you on some turnpike. And no, I’m not interested in reading your responses any more.

I thought you were unhinged…an older man, a father (for crying out loud), trying to arrange a confrontation over the internet after having been internet insulted. Now you’re over here throwing out your own name-calling. Good bye and good riddance.

226

[quote]
How does that differ with the idea that China did not send voyages to foreign lands because it was focused on itself?[/quote]

being focused on its (extremely vast) borders and being focused on itself are two different things.
I don’t buy the idea of a “meditative” Ming Empire.

[quote]
What do you see as some of the benefits and/or defining features of Eastern philosophy[/quote]

Eastern philosophy is a Western idea.
It doesn’t exist.

In the West, philosophy, science, religion and politics have been differentiated pretty early. This is not the case in the East. As a result, our western labels doesn’t apply there.

more importantly : for who’s benefits ?

I think the vast majority of western people would better served by learning the philosophies of their own civilization before trying to import foreign ideas they never really understand.

I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West.

Obviously, there is always some exceptions. Some people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies. But they are the exception, not the rule.

I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this.
Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.

[quote]
and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?[/quote]

the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer.

227

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

I say this with all sincerity; you sir, are a babbling idiot. [/quote]

Aren’t you trying to set up a fight over in GAL for being called a ‘bitch?’ ‘Cherry-pick’ a few more ‘truths,’ as you’ve got a long way to go before you grow up. No, I don’t want your number. Or, to meet you on some turnpike. And no, I’m not interested in reading your responses any more.

I thought you were unhinged…an older man, a father (for crying out loud), trying to arrange a confrontation over the internet after having been internet insulted. Now you’re over here throwing out your own name-calling. Good bye and good riddance.[/quote]

I’m not trying to set up anything. Reading is fundamental though, try it sometime. Someone said they’d call me a bitch to my face. I’ll simply give them that opportunity. That’s not setting up a fight Forrest. Calling another man a bitch to his face is starting a fight though. I know it’s a big box of chocolates to you, but this piece of chocolate has a different filling. :slight_smile:

If you do not read me anymore, I will sleep as well tonite as last. They do have a “block” function that I can only assume is for those with such feminine inclinations. Use it. I happily accept your “I’m not talking to you anymore!” Please don’t as it will save me the energy of having to reply to you in the future.

I am not here to make friends with you. And I’m not sure why you felt it was your place to insert yourself into the discussion between BC and I and, bring an unrelated discussion to the table. But I’m sure BC is appreciative of your efforts and I’m sure we’ve covered TBG criticisms prior. They are well-documented by now. In no particular order it’s alleged I’ll challenge you to a fight IRL, I “bully” women (the same type of women you boys castigate over here in good old religious/conservative PWI) and I teach 20 year olds how to make home porn. That about cover it? However, as you implied to me, it’s the “internet” - why are you taking it so seriously? Don’t go getting all “internet insulted” brah. Or perhaps, you’re being hypocritical (you are) which means you’re in the right forum :slight_smile: At least you’re not lost!

Anyway, while you brush up on your reading comprehension, you might want to let go of the notion that allowing our would-be hero over at GAL the opportunity to START a fight, and the difference between “arranging” a fight. Either way, I’m not real concerned about your opinion.

228

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
How does that differ with the idea that China did not send voyages to foreign lands because it was focused on itself?[/quote]

being focused on its (extremely vast) borders and being focused on itself are two different things.
I don’t buy the idea of a “meditative” Ming Empire.

[quote]
What do you see as some of the benefits and/or defining features of Eastern philosophy[/quote]

Eastern philosophy is a Western idea.
It doesn’t exist.

In the West, philosophy, science, religion and politics have been differentiated pretty early. This is not the case in the East. As a result, our western labels doesn’t apply there.

more importantly : for who’s benefits ?

I think the vast majority of western people would better served by learning the philosophies of their own civilization before trying to import foreign ideas they never really understand.

I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West.

Obviously, there is always some exceptions. Some people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies. But they are the exception, not the rule.

I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this.
Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.

[quote]
and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?[/quote]

the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer. [/quote]

So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist “Eastern philosophy is a Western idea. It doesn’t exist.”. Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it “I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West…I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this. Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.”

Which would explain why you answered this "
the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer." If you don’t understand the philosophy, which you first claimed didn’t even exist, then how on earth are you going to answer a question about its role in history? Instead, you just made a generalization about all philosophies’ roles in history.

What you should really have just started and ended with was “This isn’t one of the topics I know much about.”

229

[quote]ironcross wrote:
So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist…Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it.
[/quote]

It’s a koan.

You just haven’t thought about it hard enough.

ironcross, you are going to have to learn the kamui is far too clever to confront head on. If you ever want to defeat him, you’ll have to let go.

:wink:

230

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:
So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist…Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it.
[/quote]

It’s a koan.

You just haven’t thought about it hard enough.

ironcross, you are going to have to learn the kamui is far too clever to confront head on. If you ever want to defeat him, you’ll have to let go.

;)[/quote]

It isn’t about winning for me. Perhaps that’s where I’m going wrong. It does seem like some on here are so concerned about being right that they offer ultimatums about topics which they have little to no knowledge of. That’s intellectual dishonestly and a huge turn-off to me. You can call it what you want to on here. I would really prefer that Kamui was educated about Eastern philosophy and did know what he was talking about, but he clearly told us all that he isn’t. At least he was honest in the end and told me to ask someone else after all of that. Even his history is a bit rusty (China wasn’t concerned with Tibet until later than the sixteenth century). What bothers me is that he assumes I have a complete misunderstanding of Eastern philosophy, while admitting he has none himself off of which to base that assumption.

And yes, I appreciated your subtle joking.

231

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:
So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist…Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it.
[/quote]

It’s a koan.

You just haven’t thought about it hard enough.

ironcross, you are going to have to learn the kamui is far too clever to confront head on. If you ever want to defeat him, you’ll have to let go.

;)[/quote]

It isn’t about winning for me. Perhaps that’s where I’m going wrong. It does seem like some on here are so concerned about being right that they offer ultimatums about topics which they have little to no knowledge of. That’s intellectual dishonestly and a huge turn-off to me. You can call it what you want to on here. I would really prefer that Kamui was educated about Eastern philosophy and did know what he was talking about, but he clearly told us all that he isn’t. At least he was honest in the end and told me to ask someone else after all of that. Even his history is a bit rusty (China wasn’t concerned with Tibet until later than the sixteenth century). What bothers me is that he assumes I have a complete misunderstanding of Eastern philosophy, while admitting he has none himself off of which to base that assumption.

And yes, I appreciated your subtle joking.[/quote]

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think that you are misinterpreting what kamui actually means (which is fair, as English is not his native language and the topic is complex).

He is welcome to correct me if I am getting him wrong, but I think what he meant is that eastern “philosophy” as understood by westerners, with their inescapably western bias in perception, does not exist. That what and how the eastern thought process (if it is even remotely homogeneous in the first place) occurs is going to necessarily still end up filtered though the distorted lens of western perception, and what comes out the other side is no longer the thing that went in.

That’s not to say that we are incapable of eventually understanding, but that it is about as likely as a Japanese is capable of truly understanding the western tendency to value individualism and indepenence.

Shit, I’ve been immersed DEEP in this country for over 9 years now, and there are still huge swaths of Japanese behavior and thinking processes that remain completely baffling to me. Maybe it is because I have come to understand this reality that I “get” where kamui is coming from here. Trust me, it took me years of living here before I finally realized that not only did I NOT have the Japanese figured out, but that I was probably never going to and that is not really a bad thing.

232

[quote]kamui wrote:

Me neither.

[quote]

LOL! That’s true, we like to compartmentalize everything. If it doesn’t have a category, we’ll make one.

Weak lower level philosophies, for weak minds. “I want to know being!” ← I blame the Beatles :slight_smile:

[quote]
Obviously, there is always some exceptions. Some people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies. But they are the exception, not the rule.

I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this.
Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.

[quote]
and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?[/quote]

the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer. [/quote]

I have come to the conclusion that while definitely studying history and what has been said historically is necessary at least in early stages of learning. I see little benefit from intense study of the same material our forefathers studied, but rather the intense study of what the forefathers themselves said.
I kind of look at it like music, if you want to advance, you don’t listen to what influenced Eric Clapton, you listen to Eric Clapton. If we concentrate on the old and not the new, we will come to the same understanding but not advance.

233

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
How does that differ with the idea that China did not send voyages to foreign lands because it was focused on itself?[/quote]

being focused on its (extremely vast) borders and being focused on itself are two different things.
I don’t buy the idea of a “meditative” Ming Empire.

[quote]
What do you see as some of the benefits and/or defining features of Eastern philosophy[/quote]

Eastern philosophy is a Western idea.
It doesn’t exist.

In the West, philosophy, science, religion and politics have been differentiated pretty early. This is not the case in the East. As a result, our western labels doesn’t apply there.

more importantly : for who’s benefits ?

I think the vast majority of western people would better served by learning the philosophies of their own civilization before trying to import foreign ideas they never really understand.

I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West.

Obviously, there is always some exceptions. Some people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies. But they are the exception, not the rule.

I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this.
Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.

[quote]
and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?[/quote]

the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer. [/quote]

So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist “Eastern philosophy is a Western idea. It doesn’t exist.”. Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it “I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West…I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this. Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.”

Which would explain why you answered this "
the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer." If you don’t understand the philosophy, which you first claimed didn’t even exist, then how on earth are you going to answer a question about its role in history? Instead, you just made a generalization about all philosophies’ roles in history.

What you should really have just started and ended with was “This isn’t one of the topics I know much about.”[/quote]

I don’t mean to put words into Kams mouth, but the idea that ‘Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist’ simply means that it’s not branched out into it’s own thing, but woven into the fabric of that society and culture. They don’t see it separately as a ‘category’, it’s part of daily life.

And I think he has demonstrated quite ample knowledge of it.

234

And by the way, at the risk of perpetuating the whispers and rumors about my not so latent feelings toward mon amant français, I can assure you that one thing he most certainly is NOT is intellectually dishonest. In fact, he’s probably the MOST intellectually honest person on this entire board.

235

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:
So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist…Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it.
[/quote]

It’s a koan.

You just haven’t thought about it hard enough.

ironcross, you are going to have to learn the kamui is far too clever to confront head on. If you ever want to defeat him, you’ll have to let go.

;)[/quote]

It isn’t about winning for me. Perhaps that’s where I’m going wrong. It does seem like some on here are so concerned about being right that they offer ultimatums about topics which they have little to no knowledge of. That’s intellectual dishonestly and a huge turn-off to me. You can call it what you want to on here. I would really prefer that Kamui was educated about Eastern philosophy and did know what he was talking about, but he clearly told us all that he isn’t. At least he was honest in the end and told me to ask someone else after all of that. Even his history is a bit rusty (China wasn’t concerned with Tibet until later than the sixteenth century). What bothers me is that he assumes I have a complete misunderstanding of Eastern philosophy, while admitting he has none himself off of which to base that assumption.

And yes, I appreciated your subtle joking.[/quote]

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think that you are misinterpreting what kamui actually means (which is fair, as English is not his native language and the topic is complex).

He is welcome to correct me if I am getting him wrong, but I think what he meant is that eastern “philosophy” as understood by westerners, with their inescapably western bias in perception, does not exist. That what and how the eastern thought process (if it is even remotely homogeneous in the first place) occurs is going to necessarily still end up filtered though the distorted lens of western perception, and what comes out the other side is no longer the thing that went in.

That’s not to say that we are incapable of eventually understanding, but that it is about as likely as a Japanese is capable of truly understanding the western tendency to value individualism and indepenence.

Shit, I’ve been immersed DEEP in this country for over 9 years now, and there are still huge swaths of Japanese behavior and thinking processes that remain completely baffling to me. Maybe it is because I have come to understand this reality that I “get” where kamui is coming from here. Trust me, it took me years of living here before I finally realized that not only did I NOT have the Japanese figured out, but that I was probably never going to and that is not really a bad thing.

[/quote]

I should have read this first…oh well.

236

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
How does that differ with the idea that China did not send voyages to foreign lands because it was focused on itself?[/quote]

being focused on its (extremely vast) borders and being focused on itself are two different things.
I don’t buy the idea of a “meditative” Ming Empire.

[quote]
What do you see as some of the benefits and/or defining features of Eastern philosophy[/quote]

Eastern philosophy is a Western idea.
It doesn’t exist.

In the West, philosophy, science, religion and politics have been differentiated pretty early. This is not the case in the East. As a result, our western labels doesn’t apply there.

more importantly : for who’s benefits ?

I think the vast majority of western people would better served by learning the philosophies of their own civilization before trying to import foreign ideas they never really understand.

I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West.

Obviously, there is always some exceptions. Some people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies. But they are the exception, not the rule.

I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this.
Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.

[quote]
and how do you feel that these ideas played a different role in Eastern history than what we’ve seen happen in the West?[/quote]

the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer. [/quote]

So you’re first saying that Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist “Eastern philosophy is a Western idea. It doesn’t exist.”. Then you’re saying that it does exist, but you don’t understand it “I see no real benefit in the westernized, bastardized, new agized, californianized versions of Eastern philosophies I’ve met in the West…I’m not one of them, so i can’t comment on this. Ask Ephrem instead. He may be one of them.”

Which would explain why you answered this "
the interaction of intellectual factors (philosophy, religion, traditions, “mentality”) and other factors (material, technological, demographical, economical, political) is a very complex question. Direct causation (one way or the other) is almost never a good answer." If you don’t understand the philosophy, which you first claimed didn’t even exist, then how on earth are you going to answer a question about its role in history? Instead, you just made a generalization about all philosophies’ roles in history.

What you should really have just started and ended with was “This isn’t one of the topics I know much about.”[/quote]

I don’t mean to put words into Kams mouth, but the idea that ‘Eastern Philosophy doesn’t exist’ simply means that it’s not branched out into it’s own thing, but woven into the fabric of that society and culture. They don’t see it separately as a ‘category’, it’s part of daily life.

And I think he has demonstrated quite ample knowledge of it.[/quote]

Haha!

JINX!

237

*“Eastern Philosophy” doesn’t exist"

explanation :

Confucianism(s), Shintoism(s), Daoism(s), Buddhism(s), legalism, mohism, Jainism, Shivaism, Brahmanism, yoga(s), Animism(s), etc do exist.
They are neither religions, nor sciences, nor philosophies, nor ideologies “as we know it”. They are “all of the above” and “none of the above” at the same time.

Eastern philosophy is an artificial category made by westerners for westerners.
It allow us to make broad generalizations, which are intrinsically bad. But it has no other benefit.

That was your question, i answered it.
Feel free to ask me what you want about specific concepts. maybe Qi, or Yi, or Shen, or T’ien. Then, we could compare them to western concepts like “body”, “soul”, “mind”, “spirit”, or “God”.

*“i’m not one of them” (ie : “people who are able and willing to make the acculturing efforts required to understand these philosophies”.)

explanation :

i don’t follow a Dharmic path.
Therefore, regarless of my erudite knowledge of these “philosophies” (or lack thereof), i have no first-hand direct/personnal/“internal” experience of these philosophies.
As a result, i can’t comment on their “benefits”. Since (most of) these “philosophies” are meant to be “existential paths”. Not theoretic doctrines.

I never said i “don’t know much about this topic”. I just said that i don’t understand these philosophies as they are meant to be understood.
I, for one, have the humility to admit it.

238

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

I say this with all sincerity; you sir, are a babbling idiot. [/quote]

Aren’t you trying to set up a fight over in GAL for being called a ‘bitch?’ ‘Cherry-pick’ a few more ‘truths,’ as you’ve got a long way to go before you grow up. No, I don’t want your number. Or, to meet you on some turnpike. And no, I’m not interested in reading your responses any more.

I thought you were unhinged…an older man, a father (for crying out loud), trying to arrange a confrontation over the internet after having been internet insulted. Now you’re over here throwing out your own name-calling. Good bye and good riddance.[/quote]

Seriously??

239

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

I say this with all sincerity; you sir, are a babbling idiot. [/quote]

Aren’t you trying to set up a fight over in GAL for being called a ‘bitch?’ ‘Cherry-pick’ a few more ‘truths,’ as you’ve got a long way to go before you grow up. No, I don’t want your number. Or, to meet you on some turnpike. And no, I’m not interested in reading your responses any more.

I thought you were unhinged…an older man, a father (for crying out loud), trying to arrange a confrontation over the internet after having been internet insulted. Now you’re over here throwing out your own name-calling. Good bye and good riddance.[/quote]

Seriously?? [/quote]

Yes, in the Mayweather thread. I’ve no use for the type of person that would dare someone to insult him to his face (arranging a fight over an internet insult), who then turns around and blatantly insults someone else. “Me solve problem with fists. You insult me, I beat you up. Me insult you and you don’t like it, I beat you up too (undoubtedly, if insulted back).” I don’t associate with them in the real world, and I certainly could care less what their opinion is on any subject. So, ignored. That’s all I have to say.

240

Kamui- Honestly, when I first brought up the topic back in the Sex and the Male Animal thread, I was using Taoist ideas of the way as an analogy for describing the feminine strength identified in the thread. The most common comparison is to water. That’s what this entire conversation is based off of. When I say “philosophy”, I haven’t been referring to the exact Western definition of it; I use that word because there really isn’t any other in my language to describe what I’m talking about. If I say “Taoist way”, maybe one or two people would have any idea that I wasn’t referring to an exact method.

Talking about specifc terminology wouldn’t do it either. Does anyone on here have any idea what I’m getting at?