Obtuse Religious Philosophy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

I presume you’re an atheist then?

If that is the case, then according to your naturalistic materialistic world view, we are the product of evolution just like every other creature. And if thats the case then what is the logic behind morals, considering no other animal has a moral code like we do? According to your view morals shouldn’t even exist. The only thing that is “good” is to make sure that your genes can survive and be passed down to the next generation.[/quote]

You know that most disease used to be considered demonic possession or divine punishment, right? (don’t worry, I’m going somewhere with this)[/quote]

Still waitin.[/quote]

Yes, but the indwelling demons were able to cause disease. Not every disease was caused by demonic possession, but in some instances it was the cause. That is why Jesus himself addressed the demons responsible for these conditions. You cannot talk to someone who is not there.

So yes, most of the time diseases were not caused by demonic possession, but sometimes they were, and when the demons were removed, they were addressed.

Where are you going with this?[/quote]

AHAHAHAHA

182

@Zeb and BrotherChris

I appreciate the replies. It seems that the significance is dependent on having “accepted” Jesus. In all honesty I think it would be great to have a firm belief in a savior and in eternal life. I just can’t get it to sit right with me. I’ve been to a few of churches, I even went for a few months of my own accord in college, but I can’t buy into it. There’s too much that doesn’t make sense to me and I’m rarely one to take a leap of faith in anything. And there are certainly aspects of it I downright disagree with. I guess christians wouldn’t be doing their job if they weren’t spreadin the word, but it’s just no sale here.

183

[quote]siouxperman wrote:
@Zeb and BrotherChris

I appreciate the replies. It seems that the significance is dependent on having “accepted” Jesus. In all honesty I think it would be great to have a firm belief in a savior and in eternal life. I just can’t get it to sit right with me. I’ve been to a few of churches, I even went for a few months of my own accord in college, but I can’t buy into it. There’s too much that doesn’t make sense to me and I’m rarely one to take a leap of faith in anything. And there are certainly aspects of it I downright disagree with[/quote]

I wonder if you tried a different church, or even a different Christian denomination. Or perhaps reading the Bible on your own, or in a group study environment. Just a few thoughts. As I’ve said multiple times, everyone takes their own path.

I also give you credit for being open to the possibilities. Unlike some of the profane agitators on this thread (see above). I congratulate you for your attitude, composure and maturity.

If you ever want to talk feel free to PM me.

All The Best,

Zeb

184

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

I presume you’re an atheist then?

If that is the case, then according to your naturalistic materialistic world view, we are the product of evolution just like every other creature. And if thats the case then what is the logic behind morals, considering no other animal has a moral code like we do? According to your view morals shouldn’t even exist. The only thing that is “good” is to make sure that your genes can survive and be passed down to the next generation.[/quote]

You know that most disease used to be considered demonic possession or divine punishment, right? (don’t worry, I’m going somewhere with this)[/quote]

Still waitin.[/quote]

Yes, but the indwelling demons were able to cause disease. Not every disease was caused by demonic possession, but in some instances it was the cause. That is why Jesus himself addressed the demons responsible for these conditions. You cannot talk to someone who is not there.

So yes, most of the time diseases were not caused by demonic possession, but sometimes they were, and when the demons were removed, they were addressed.

Where are you going with this?[/quote]

The fact that the system of medicine was influenced by religious beliefs, now it’s (generally) not. And medicine has improved.

When ethics are less influenced by religious beliefs, they will improve as well.

Also, that you asking “Well if ethics don’t come from God, where do they come from?!” is exactly the same as someone back then saying “Well, if this disease didnt come from a demon, where did it come from?!”

185

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?

186

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
This kid doesn’t want to be debate or discuss, he wanted to bitch and moan, that’s ALL he wanted to do.

[/quote]

I laugh at the passive aggressive “men” throwing condescending remarks about my maturity here, knowing that none would be so brazen as to do it in person…

Exhibit C is coming… BOO! Take your time to condescend and belittle while you have your chance at a one sided shouting match. We all know you will revert to semantics, shouting, and passive aggressive personal attacks when any sort of debate comes back into play.

By the way, which one of us has been bitching and moaning the whole time?.. :wink:

187

[quote]siouxperman wrote:
@Zeb and BrotherChris

I appreciate the replies. It seems that the significance is dependent on having “accepted” Jesus. In all honesty I think it would be great to have a firm belief in a savior and in eternal life. I just can’t get it to sit right with me. I’ve been to a few of churches, I even went for a few months of my own accord in college, but I can’t buy into it. There’s too much that doesn’t make sense to me and I’m rarely one to take a leap of faith in anything. And there are certainly aspects of it I downright disagree with. I guess christians wouldn’t be doing their job if they weren’t spreadin the word, but it’s just no sale here.[/quote]

I know what you’re talking about. There was a famous atheist philosopher (I believe). He had studied Catholicism (religion in general) for the longest time, debated it, understood it, could teach it, and understood that it was perfectly logical. Of course he had his disagreements with it because of some assumptions. But, he saw that if you took the assumptions that come with faith (in Jesus really dying on the Cross and being G-d) that logically he would have to be Catholic. However, he wasn’t buying the leap of faith as you say. The man was and is a genius (I’ll try and find his name) when it came to the faith, he was just…well, stuck.

Well, he decided to go on a sabbatical to India. He heard of a living saint in India and decided to go visit her. It was as I am sure you know, Mother Theresa. She went up to him when he came inside the house and she gave him the biggest smile and looked into his eyes and said, when shall you convert? He chalked it up to the love which comes from Catholicism that radiated out of Mother Theresa and her love for the Eucharist and His ever Virgin Mother, Mary.

Basically the arguments are fine, they are dandy. I can state the facts as good as the next guy, we’re not hypocrites because we’re Catholic, but we’re Catholic because we’re hypocrites. I’m rowdy, I’m zealous, I’m arrogant, I’m prideful. That doesn’t matter. I’m not going to convert anyone, seeing the love that can be produced out of someone that is so weak and ill as Mother Theresa, the Little Flower, Padre Pio, Karol the Great, &c. is what converts someone. Not the arguments. I’m not saying that we should go around saying look at the love of this person, no I’m saying that you can give the arguments all day long, but if they don’t ultimately see the fruits of G-d, they’ll be left standing there in their own dust.

I pray for you that you find the truth, and if you do find the truth please share it with us Catholics as we’re always looking for it. G-d bless, and may the Virgin Mary keep you in her heart.

188

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?[/quote]

What would be the point? Obviously, many did not and do not believe. As Jesus said himself; “I came to divide not to unite.” It was obvious that he was well aware that he was going to be a dividing force for many, many years to come. And look at us over 2000 years later still debating just as they were most likely doing 2000 years ago.

Faith is faith and science is science and not unlike apples and oranges you cannot compare them. Yet, here on T Nation (and other places I’m sure) it seems like a past time.

189

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But you guys are forgetting one thing: it’s all made up fairy tales.[/quote]

Or it isn’t. Certainly it’s one way or the other.
[/quote]

I’ll concede this point if you’re willing to admit that Greek mythology is also possible.

190

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But you guys are forgetting one thing: it’s all made up fairy tales.[/quote]

Or it isn’t. Certainly it’s one way or the other.
[/quote]

I’ll concede this point if you’re willing to admit that Greek mythology is also possible.[/quote]

The thing about greek mythology is that it is not based in history, nor is it about historical people, nor is there any eye witness accounts. Even the majority of its adherents will admit to this.

191

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?[/quote]

What would be the point? Obviously, many did not and do not believe. As Jesus said himself; “I came to divide not to unite.” It was obvious that he was well aware that he was going to be a dividing force for many, many years to come. And look at us over 2000 years later still debating just as they were most likely doing 2000 years ago.

Faith is faith and science is science and not unlike apples and oranges you cannot compare them. Yet, here on T Nation (and other places I’m sure) it seems like a past time.

[/quote]

So the all powerful all merciful all loving manifested Himself as man, and came to “divide” because … what? Or maybe the sriptures were written masterfully, knowing full well they had competition, and giving them built in excuses for inconsistency and unbelievability.

Sorry my friend, any God I can imagine with God attributes wouldn’t deliver a messenger that came to divide. Requesting “faith” is just a built-in excuse. It’s the biggest lie ever sold to man-kind.

192

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But you guys are forgetting one thing: it’s all made up fairy tales.[/quote]

Or it isn’t. Certainly it’s one way or the other.
[/quote]

I’ll concede this point if you’re willing to admit that Greek mythology is also possible.[/quote]

If you are correct and it is all made up fairy tales then you certainly have nothing to worry about, and neither do I. But if you’re wrong only one of us has nothing to worry about and it isn’t you.

193

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But you guys are forgetting one thing: it’s all made up fairy tales.[/quote]

Or it isn’t. Certainly it’s one way or the other.
[/quote]

I’ll concede this point if you’re willing to admit that Greek mythology is also possible.[/quote]

The thing about greek mythology is that it is not based in history, nor is it about historical people, nor is there any eye witness accounts. Even the majority of its adherents will admit to this.[/quote]

Those are just minor details. Anything that an atheist can use to demean Christianity should be used. I think it’s somewhere in their doctrine. As I’ve said before some of these guys are exactly like the fundamentalist preachers that you see on street corners spouting Bible verses. I would no more pay attention to them as I do these guys. But they are on fire for their cause in the same way. Both are zealots and both turn people away instead of pull them in.

194

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?[/quote]

What would be the point? Obviously, many did not and do not believe. As Jesus said himself; “I came to divide not to unite.” It was obvious that he was well aware that he was going to be a dividing force for many, many years to come. And look at us over 2000 years later still debating just as they were most likely doing 2000 years ago.

Faith is faith and science is science and not unlike apples and oranges you cannot compare them. Yet, here on T Nation (and other places I’m sure) it seems like a past time.

[/quote]

So the all powerful all merciful all loving manifested Himself as man, and came to “divide” because … what? Or maybe the sriptures were written masterfully, knowing full well they had competition, and giving them built in excuses for inconsistency and unbelievability.

Sorry my friend, any God I can imagine with God attributes wouldn’t deliver a messenger that came to divide. Requesting “faith” is just a built-in excuse. It’s the biggest lie ever sold to man-kind.[/quote]

And you certainly have the right to your belief. But the point of Jesus Christ saying such a thing was that he was well aware that man is by nature sinful and many would either turn away or not accept. God (the Father) used to be in direct communication with man and man even turned away then.

As I’ve said, and will now repeat, faith is not science and science is not faith. I can never prove to you that there is a God only YOU will be able to do that if and when the time is right.

That’s what free will is all about, pretty simple.

195

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?[/quote]

What would be the point? Obviously, many did not and do not believe. As Jesus said himself; “I came to divide not to unite.” It was obvious that he was well aware that he was going to be a dividing force for many, many years to come. And look at us over 2000 years later still debating just as they were most likely doing 2000 years ago.

Faith is faith and science is science and not unlike apples and oranges you cannot compare them. Yet, here on T Nation (and other places I’m sure) it seems like a past time.

[/quote]

So the all powerful all merciful all loving manifested Himself as man, and came to “divide” because … what? Or maybe the sriptures were written masterfully, knowing full well they had competition, and giving them built in excuses for inconsistency and unbelievability.

Sorry my friend, any God I can imagine with God attributes wouldn’t deliver a messenger that came to divide. Requesting “faith” is just a built-in excuse. It’s the biggest lie ever sold to man-kind.[/quote]

And you certainly have the right to your belief. But the point of Jesus Christ saying such a thing was that he was well aware that man is by nature sinful and many would either turn away or not accept. God (the Father) used to be in direct communication with man and man even turned away then.

As I’ve said, and will now repeat, faith is not science and science is not faith. I can never prove to you that there is a God only YOU will be able to do that if and when the time is right.

That’s what free will is all about, pretty simple.

[/quote]

If you (and others) had not been indoctrinated, I’d bet your could barely contain your laughter at the first paragraph you wrote above.

When exactly was “the Father” in DIRECT communication with man? Why does the almighty allegedly choose “personal revelation”, “burning bushes” and such?

If you’re well aware that man is sinful, why wouldn’t you send a clear, direct, incontrovertible message for your “children”? I have a five year old. When I’m teaching him something important that he needs to know, I don’t light a fire, hide behind it and start talking to him thru the fire or “from behind the curtain”. These things are patently ridiculous and surely beneath the “almighty”.

The disease of man is anthropocentrism - we exist, and therefore there must be a reason why. And since we cannot ultimately figure out “why”, we must ascribe it to the supernatural, as we did thunderbolts and earthquakes before we learned what caused them too. Along the way, some very wise men realized the control they could exert over the flock with these tales.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m open to a Creator - call it God if you wish. I’m very open to intelligent design and if you want to see God there too so be it. Hell, I’m even open to Aliens seeding the earth and ancient civilizations beginning the God myth from that contact. I’m open to just about anything except the fairy tales about the Almighty from man’s account.

From what I know of your God, he could just appear and settle this and save all his children. What we require “saving” from I’m not so sure but I’ll play along with your construct.

Soooo…no, you cannot prove God exists and I never asked you to. But God can prove it. Don’t forget I’d like a reply as to your assertion that God used to be in direct contact with man.

196

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but I’m done with the 19 year old troll. The more you feed him the more he’ll hang around. [/quote]

One of those weird scenarios where I’m going to agree with you. But if you saw my reply to one of your earlier posts, it was legitimate. Of course I probably won’t agree with an explanation you provide, but it might help me better understand why you believe it.[/quote]

I apologize for not responding, I must have missed it. You know how it is when there is a small child in the room. It sort of dominates the conversation.
[/quote]

It was this, in response to something you said about Jesus’ sacrifice:

I went to church every sunday for like 12 years, but this has always been lost on me. I just don’t “get it”. I don’t get the sacrifice. God could always create another son, i mean he sacrificed his only son because it was the only son he decided to create. And I can only assume god had a plan in mind when he did it (who was it that says god doesn’t play dice?), so he knew jesus would end up “at his right hand”. Like, I really don’t understand what the great sacrifice was if jesus was the embodiment of god and was eternal anyway and died but was just gonna be reborn and ascend. I mean seriously, i don’t understand the significance of this.
[/quote]

Good question and one that more people should consider. Here’s my answer: Jesus Christ was basically half man and half God when he walked the earth. God allowed him to be born of a woman and tortured. It’s true that he was going to ascend to heaven, but he still had to go through the trials (literally) and tribulations of a persecuted man. Jesus Christ felt everyone one of those punches and slaps. He felt everyone of those lashes to his back and the crown of thorns on his head. He certainly felt the pain of having spikes driven through his hands and feet. And he absolutely felt the humiliation of the entire process. That is the sacrifice I speak of. That is the great gift that only God could have given us. And through that gift we are ale to have eternal life in heaven, if we choose it. And that is the reason why I am proud to say that I am a Christian.[/quote]

All the while ignoring the rest of the world gives him “prophet” status at best, fictional status at worst, and certainly not divine or a son of God. The Jews were there. They do not believe. The Muslims do not believe. Want me to continue?[/quote]

What would be the point? Obviously, many did not and do not believe. As Jesus said himself; “I came to divide not to unite.” It was obvious that he was well aware that he was going to be a dividing force for many, many years to come. And look at us over 2000 years later still debating just as they were most likely doing 2000 years ago.

Faith is faith and science is science and not unlike apples and oranges you cannot compare them. Yet, here on T Nation (and other places I’m sure) it seems like a past time.

[/quote]

So the all powerful all merciful all loving manifested Himself as man, and came to “divide” because … what? Or maybe the sriptures were written masterfully, knowing full well they had competition, and giving them built in excuses for inconsistency and unbelievability.

Sorry my friend, any God I can imagine with God attributes wouldn’t deliver a messenger that came to divide. Requesting “faith” is just a built-in excuse. It’s the biggest lie ever sold to man-kind.[/quote]

And you certainly have the right to your belief. But the point of Jesus Christ saying such a thing was that he was well aware that man is by nature sinful and many would either turn away or not accept. God (the Father) used to be in direct communication with man and man even turned away then.

As I’ve said, and will now repeat, faith is not science and science is not faith. I can never prove to you that there is a God only YOU will be able to do that if and when the time is right.

That’s what free will is all about, pretty simple.

[/quote]

If you (and others) had not been indoctrinated, I’d bet your could barely contain your laughter at the first paragraph you wrote above.

When exactly was “the Father” in DIRECT communication with man? Why does the almighty allegedly choose “personal revelation”, “burning bushes” and such?

If you’re well aware that man is sinful, why wouldn’t you send a clear, direct, incontrovertible message for your “children”? I have a five year old. When I’m teaching him something important that he needs to know, I don’t light a fire, hide behind it and start talking to him thru the fire or “from behind the curtain”. These things are patently ridiculous and surely beneath the “almighty”.

The disease of man is anthropocentrism - we exist, and therefore there must be a reason why. And since we cannot ultimately figure out “why”, we must ascribe it to the supernatural, as we did thunderbolts and earthquakes before we learned what caused them too. Along the way, some very wise men realized the control they could exert over the flock with these tales.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m open to a Creator - call it God if you wish. I’m very open to intelligent design and if you want to see God there too so be it. Hell, I’m even open to Aliens seeding the earth and ancient civilizations beginning the God myth from that contact. I’m open to just about anything except the fairy tales about the Almighty from man’s account.

From what I know of your God, he could just appear and settle this and save all his children. What we require “saving” from I’m not so sure but I’ll play along with your construct.

Soooo…no, you cannot prove God exists and I never asked you to. But God can prove it. Don’t forget I’d like a reply as to your assertion that God used to be in direct contact with man.[/quote]

I was referring to the Old Testament. You should take the time to read it. In fact, if you read it you’ll have more ammunition to shoot it down, so yeah read it. Anyway, I think I understand where you’re coming from. Let’s see if I have this correctly; you don’t believe in Christian God of the Bible. Did I get that right? And I DO believe in that God. And I cannot prove to you that God exists as that is something that will have to come from you, or not.

I guess that about sums it up. No?

197

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But you guys are forgetting one thing: it’s all made up fairy tales.[/quote]

Or it isn’t. Certainly it’s one way or the other.
[/quote]

I’ll concede this point if you’re willing to admit that Greek mythology is also possible.[/quote]

If you are correct and it is all made up fairy tales then you certainly have nothing to worry about, and neither do I. But if you’re wrong only one of us has nothing to worry about and it isn’t you.

[/quote]
Belief just in case. Nice.

198

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I was referring to the Old Testament. You should take the time to read it. In fact, if you read it you’ll have more ammunition to shoot it down, so yeah read it. Anyway, I think I understand where you’re coming from. Let’s see if I have this correctly; you don’t believe in Christian God of the Bible. Did I get that right? And I DO believe in that God. And I cannot prove to you that God exists as that is something that will have to come from you, or not.

I guess that about sums it up. No?
[/quote]

If I didn’t read the OT, among many many other texts, how in the world do you think a reasonable person such as myself could come to the doubt that I have? Please, I have read the OT, NT so forth and so on. I’ve considered other religions and beliefs in my search for the truth.

So, your assumptions are only partially correct. I guess we can say that I do not believe the christian bible is the word of God. Whether or not I believe in God as you know him is still subject to consideration for me. It doesn’t matter much to me how you “dress Him up” in your belief system, but I’m quite comfortable in my belief that your bible is not the word of God any more than Mohammad dictated the word of God in the Koran.

199

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I was referring to the Old Testament. You should take the time to read it. In fact, if you read it you’ll have more ammunition to shoot it down, so yeah read it. Anyway, I think I understand where you’re coming from. Let’s see if I have this correctly; you don’t believe in Christian God of the Bible. Did I get that right? And I DO believe in that God. And I cannot prove to you that God exists as that is something that will have to come from you, or not.

I guess that about sums it up. No?
[/quote]

If I didn’t read the OT, among many many other texts, how in the world do you think a reasonable person such as myself could come to the doubt that I have? Please, I have read the OT, NT so forth and so on. I’ve considered other religions and beliefs in my search for the truth.[/quote]

You didn’t know when and where God (the father) spoke directly to his people. That’s the reason I assumed you had not read the OT. My mistake perhaps you just forgot.

[quote]So, your assumptions are only partially correct. I guess we can say that I do not believe the christian bible is the word of God. Whether or not I believe in God as you know him is still subject to consideration for me. It doesn’t matter much to me how you “dress Him up” in your belief system, but I’m quite comfortable in my belief that your bible is not the word of God any more than Mohammad dictated the word of God in the Koran.
[/quote]

Faire enough. After studying several religions myself I’ve come to the conclusion that the Christian Bible is the word of God.

200

[quote]ZEB wrote:

You didn’t know when and where God (the father) spoke directly to his people. That’s the reason I assumed you had not read the OT. My mistake perhaps you just forgot.

[/quote]

Uh, actually no. But again, since I don’t consider the bible the word of God and, I do not consider it an entirely accurate historical account, you’ll have to share with me extra-biblical non-religious reference to such an event to make your case to me. :slight_smile: