Obesity and Food Politics

In response to all the fat people walking around and why:

There is a very simple problem with the american diet:

People know how to eat. They know what is healthy. They are too fucking lazy to eat well and too fucking lazy to exercise. It’s that simple.

As far as the carbohydrates thing:

From a very young age we are taught that carbohydrates are primarily used by the body for energy. Knowing this, it seems very obvious that if someone was to sit on their ass all day, everyday, that they probably shouldn’t eat a ton of carbohydrates.

I agree with the whole government subsidies and that’s why they promote them etc.

What they should do is just flip the damn pyramid upside down (keep sweets on the top). That would be a good start.

[quote]orion wrote:

I would like to say that that would lead you to throw every epidemiological study into the dustbin, but they are of course totally peer reviewed.

Garbage, nonetheless.

Because, correlation does not mean causation, never has, never will, and for next to insignificant correlation in nutritional studies that is twice as true as it would otherwise be.

It works for overwhelming correlations, as in cholera is related to polluted water, but in the case of macronutritients and all kinds of diseases, not so much.

A hypothetical: If people who digest more fiber are healthier, does that mean that fiber is good for you?

If you answer is not a resounding “No! Not necessarily!” you are part of the problem.

That would be, at best, the basis of a clinical study, specifically a ward study, where you substitute with fiber and do nothing else.

Then you would have a point, but that is not how it is done.

What is done is that 90% of the money for such studies is granted by organizations that totally buy into the lipid hypothesis and you either swallow it or you become a cab driver.

You deal with these people on a daily basis, what are they going to choose?

[/quote]

I will be the first to say that the peer review process is not perfect. I see studies all the time that pass peer review and contain major flaws in methodology and conclusions, but it is better than nothing and does make it easier to sort through bullshit claims. Most reputable journals are fairly devoid of bias, at least in physics. That may not be the case in the biological science, but my fiance tells me it is not all that big of an issue and I believe her. Now, scientists working for a company are most definitely biased and their claims should always be taken with a grain of salt. For instance, a study done by a corn farming organization that shows that high fructose corn syrup is healthy should surprise no one, but should be considered suspect no matter what. One of the reasons that we have a tenure system and such things as unrestricted grants is to prevent things like what you describe. It is not fool-proof, but it is mostly effective. I was told once that the health issues caused by hydrogenated oils were known back in the 60’s or 70’s, but major companies managed to convince the FDA to allow their unrestricted use anyway. I don’t know if this is true or not, but stuff like that does happen.

One major problem with scientific research, though, is not so much the research itself, but the way people use the conclusions of that research. Scientific studies, by necessity, tend to be narrowly focused and use very stringent controls and one needs to be careful about claims made by third parties citing that study.

Using your fiber example, let’s say that a supplement cites that study in an article promoting a fiber supplement and let’s assume that the study did show a health benefit from an increase in fiber. What was the health benefit? A person who is thinking about buying that supplement should look into the study and see if the parameters under which the added fiber increased the health of the subjects are applicable to that person. If the study was done on people who had been fiber deficient for a long period of time, the the health benefits would be more pronounced then in a person who already takes in an adequate amount of fiber and thus would not need that supplement. The article did not necessarily lie if it did not lay out the conditions under which their product would be helpful, but supplement articles tend to be very misleading with the scientific evidence for the benefit of their products

EDIT: the mods spend a lot of time breaking up my long ass posts into smaller, easier to read paragraphs so I figured I would do it myself for once.

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It treats all macronutrients the same which we already know have different physiological effects on the body depending on the proportion they are consumed in.[/quote]

If all macronutrients are NOT the same wrt moving the scale (i.e., a calorie isn’t a calorie), then where is the statistically significant differences in weight loss between subjects eating different proportions of these macros in numerous metabolic ward studies dating back 70 years?

[/quote]

Thermic effect of protein intake. In particular, the fact that up to 20% of the calories of any given protein ingested are burned off in the digestion process vs. something like 5-6% for carbs and fat. In essence this means that a calorie from protein intake may not necessarily be the same as a calorie from carbs/fat because it takes much more energy to utilize/digest. So, they effectively do not have the same effect on scale balance for identical calorie amounts. Hence, a calorie is not a calorie, strictly speaking. I can grab the source if I need to, but I don’t see a reason that I should. This is a pretty established phenomenon.

I’m not going to address the rest because I don’t think it’s bullshit science whatsoever. However, just keep in mind it was almost 40 years after the invention of synthetic testosterone and its derivatives that almighty “science” finally caught up with the real world fact that steroids WORK. For 40 years scientists–biologists, chemists, and others-- had maintained that using PEDs didn’t have any effect. These were well controlled studies…but with fatal flaws.

Just a thought. Science is a slow process, and rightfully so. But sometimes people are ahead of what you can prove with perfectly controlled studies in wards.

I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Dr. Matt is my favourite poster on this site in the non-lifting sections.

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Dr. Matt is my favourite poster on this site in the non-lifting sections.
[/quote]

My favorite in regards to anything science or science related for sure.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Thank you, I always try to keep in mind when talking to people that are not physicists that they have not spent the time studying the material that I have and so things that are just intuitive to me are not necessarily so to others who are in different fields so I try to thoroughly explain what I want to say and in such a way that non-physicists can understand me.

A major problem many people have who get advanced degrees is that the basic material just becomes intuitive to them and they lose the ability to explain it to others. This is why a lot of professors hate teaching intro classes and talking to people outside their field. They do not know how to explain the basic ideas of their field to others and it is frustrating to both parties. It is a very lucky freshman or sophomore that gets a professor that can explain the material to them in a way that is easy for them to understand.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Dr. Matt is my favourite poster on this site in the non-lifting sections.
[/quote]

My favorite in regards to anything science or science related for sure.[/quote]

Thanks, guys!

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Thermic effect of protein intake. In particular, the fact that up to 20% of the calories of any given protein ingested are burned off in the digestion process vs. something like 5-6% for carbs and fat. In essence this means that a calorie from protein intake may not necessarily be the same as a calorie from carbs/fat because it takes much more energy to utilize/digest. So, they effectively do not have the same effect on scale balance for identical calorie amounts. Hence, a calorie is not a calorie, strictly speaking. I can grab the source if I need to, but I don’t see a reason that I should. This is a pretty established phenomenon.[/quote]

While I’d argue about the overall significance of relying on TEF when designing weight-loss diets for the Average Joe (though certainly more significant for athletes who tend to require a higher protein intake), I do agree this this, combined with its known satiating effects, really separate protein from both carbs and fat as far as importance in weight-loss protocols. Not to mention the beneficial effects on body composition when dieting.

My arguments are more geared towards the fattyphiles and carbophobes, since carbs vs fat is where this thread started and the anti-carb crowd is typically so damn annoying.

Good point, though.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
In response to the “Calories in-Calories out” discussion:

1- law of conservation always applies, to everything, always

2- If the amount of energy your body consumes is greater than the amount of energy your body uses, your body will store the remaining energy

3- If the amount of energy your body consumes is less than the amount of energy your body uses, your body will use stored energy to make up the difference

4- Your body will adjust the amount of energy it uses to come closer to the level of energy it is consuming

5- The thing most people fail to realize with the “Calories in-Calories out” is that “Calories in” does not equal the amount of calories you eat. “Calories in” is the amount of calories your body absorbs. These are not the same thing. If you were to eat 3000 calories a day, your body will most likely absorb and use the vast majority of those calories. If you go out the next day and eat 10,000 calories, a much lower percentage will be absorbed (point number 4)
[/quote]

What controls how much energy your body requires?

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Why? are you too lazy to do your own research?[/quote]

You’re a clown.

We are debating a subject that revolves around facts, not opinions.

In these types of discussions, you are not allowed to peddle bullshit as FACT and tell your opponent to “do his own research” when he asks where you are getting your information from.

If that doesn’t work for you – GTFO. I have provided more than enough material to support my position and both Matt’s credentials and participation in past threads speak for themselves as far as the physics goes.

No one cares what your opinion is. We care about what the research shows.

And we’re still waiting.[/quote]

I posted a video which contains many sources of info if you are not lazy enough to watch them all.

What do you want me to do summarize the videos and post the cited research?

You, GTFO!

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I posted a video which contains many sources of info if you are not lazy enough to watch them all.

What do you want me to do summarize the videos and post the cited research?

You, GTFO![/quote]

You posted a video of Gary Taubes talking. I must have missed the part where he provided specific references (authors, dates, etc) for his assertions.

Gary Taubes, himself, is not a peer-reviewed journal article. Him saying something is true doesn’t make it a source.

I have stated that there is no difference in fat loss between low fat diets and low carb diets when calories are controlled for. I backed this up with, so far, twenty-one peer-reviewed journal papers conducted in metabolic wards that attest to this.

You are claiming there is some sort of “metabolic advantage” to low carb/high fat diets that make them superior to higher carbohydrate diets for weight loss. I have asked you to return the favor and back this up with research of equal quality.

You are completely incorrect about the existence of an advantage and you are completely incorrect about fat requiring carbohydrates to be stored. My asking for references isn’t so much to see if you are right, but to show that you are wrong.

Because, as I thought, you’ve got nothing.

Thanks for the shit-tier debate. At least Dr. Matt chimed in so I learned SOMETHING from this.

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I posted a video which contains many sources of info if you are not lazy enough to watch them all.

What do you want me to do summarize the videos and post the cited research?

You, GTFO![/quote]

You posted a video of Gary Taubes talking. I must have missed the part where he provided specific references (authors, dates, etc) for his assertions.

Gary Taubes, himself, is not a peer-reviewed journal article. Him saying something is true doesn’t make it a source.

I have stated that there is no difference in fat loss between low fat diets and low carb diets when calories are controlled for. I backed this up with, so far, twenty-one peer-reviewed journal papers conducted in metabolic wards that attest to this.

You are claiming there is some sort of “metabolic advantage” to low carb/high fat diets that make them superior to higher carbohydrate diets for weight loss. I have asked you to return the favor and back this up with research of equal quality.

You are completely incorrect about the existence of an advantage and you are completely incorrect about fat requiring carbohydrates to be stored. My asking for references isn’t so much to see if you are right, but to show that you are wrong.

Because, as I thought, you’ve got nothing.

Thanks for the shit-tier debate. At least Dr. Matt chimed in so I learned SOMETHING from this.[/quote]

I would also like to point out that Gary Taubs is an engineer and a journalist (MS in aerospace engineering and MS in Journalism) by training. He doesn’t even have a PhD in anything, let alone biology. He is by no means an expert in the field of nutrition at all. He is probably smart enough to read through a study and understand some of it, but by no means is his ability to interpret biological studies comprehensive. It is like a philosopher trying to read a study on an experiment involving String Theory and pretending to understand it, or me trying to read and fully understand a study in the field of chemistry. We can understand some, maybe in some cases most of the information, but we would be kidding ourselves if we did more then just read someone else’s conclusion based on the evidence and parrot it without understanding if it is a valid conclusion or if there were some flaws in the study. His opinion on nutrition is about as meaningful as anyone else’s opinion who is not an expert in the field. He is just able to use his writing and persuasion skills to convince people that also are not knowledgeable in that particular field that he is right, and of course very few people will actually read or be able to actually understand the studies that he may have used to draw his conclusions from if he even provides them.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Dude, conservation of energy ALWAYS applies. You’re missing the point.

Fat eaten in excess without carbohydrate cannot store itself as fat. It has to either be burned right away or rejected by the body. Energy in is equal to energy out.
[/quote]

Source, i.e. peer reviewed article or an advanced degree in some kind of biological science that deals with human metabolism?[/quote]

Why? are you too lazy to do your own research?

This isn’t MIT, buddy.

[/quote]

No it’s not. That was a colossally stupid thing to say on your part that evidences a fundamental misunderstanding of how metabolism works. If you’re going to tell us the world is flat, then you’d probably better find a way to discredit the Hubble Telescope. That’s not on Dr. Matt, that’s on you.

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Dr. Matt is my favourite poster on this site in the non-lifting sections.
[/quote]

Quoted for absurd piles of truth. That’s a gift!!

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Thank you, I always try to keep in mind when talking to people that are not physicists that they have not spent the time studying the material that I have and so things that are just intuitive to me are not necessarily so to others who are in different fields so I try to thoroughly explain what I want to say and in such a way that non-physicists can understand me.

A major problem many people have who get advanced degrees is that the basic material just becomes intuitive to them and they lose the ability to explain it to others. This is why a lot of professors hate teaching intro classes and talking to people outside their field. They do not know how to explain the basic ideas of their field to others and it is frustrating to both parties. It is a very lucky freshman or sophomore that gets a professor that can explain the material to them in a way that is easy for them to understand.[/quote]

Yes, yes, and Yes. And that is one of the things that I respect so much about you. I’ve mentioned several times before in various places here about how I had a phenomenal Calc 2 teacher that finally could explain things to me in an understandable intuitive fashion, and how much that changed my grade (from a D to and A). I wasn’t stupid, I just had shitty ass teachers.

I have always been of the opinion (and I do not recall who is responsible for the quote, but I have heard it attributed to Einstein) that “if you can’t explain it to a grade schooler, you don’t really understand it yourself”. Clearly that is a mean paraphrase of something much more eloquently said elsewhere :). But that is a huge gift you have and it’s one I really, REALLY appreciate!

I understand the idea that teaching is a bit of a drag from a researcher’s perspective. Not everyone can have a passion for teaching. But I think that everyone should understand that the better you can teach, the more it informs your own understanding outside of the class–by learning to communicate ideas in different effective ways to people who don’t understand them, or the background, you can often find new perspectives on it yourself. It’s true in every field I’ve encountered from martial arts to cage fighting to literature to history to philosophy and politics, so I don’t know why it shouldn’t apply in some form to the hard sciences :).

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Thermic effect of protein intake. In particular, the fact that up to 20% of the calories of any given protein ingested are burned off in the digestion process vs. something like 5-6% for carbs and fat. In essence this means that a calorie from protein intake may not necessarily be the same as a calorie from carbs/fat because it takes much more energy to utilize/digest. So, they effectively do not have the same effect on scale balance for identical calorie amounts. Hence, a calorie is not a calorie, strictly speaking. I can grab the source if I need to, but I don’t see a reason that I should. This is a pretty established phenomenon.[/quote]

While I’d argue about the overall significance of relying on TEF when designing weight-loss diets for the Average Joe (though certainly more significant for athletes who tend to require a higher protein intake), I do agree this this, combined with its known satiating effects, really separate protein from both carbs and fat as far as importance in weight-loss protocols. Not to mention the beneficial effects on body composition when dieting.

My arguments are more geared towards the fattyphiles and carbophobes, since carbs vs fat is where this thread started and the anti-carb crowd is typically so damn annoying.

Good point, though.[/quote]

Fair points sir. I definitely understand your frustrations!

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I wish I had your knack for explaining the scientific to the layman Dr. Matt.[/quote]

Thank you, I always try to keep in mind when talking to people that are not physicists that they have not spent the time studying the material that I have and so things that are just intuitive to me are not necessarily so to others who are in different fields so I try to thoroughly explain what I want to say and in such a way that non-physicists can understand me.

A major problem many people have who get advanced degrees is that the basic material just becomes intuitive to them and they lose the ability to explain it to others. This is why a lot of professors hate teaching intro classes and talking to people outside their field. They do not know how to explain the basic ideas of their field to others and it is frustrating to both parties. It is a very lucky freshman or sophomore that gets a professor that can explain the material to them in a way that is easy for them to understand.[/quote]

Yes, yes, and Yes. And that is one of the things that I respect so much about you. I’ve mentioned several times before in various places here about how I had a phenomenal Calc 2 teacher that finally could explain things to me in an understandable intuitive fashion, and how much that changed my grade (from a D to and A). I wasn’t stupid, I just had shitty ass teachers.

I have always been of the opinion (and I do not recall who is responsible for the quote, but I have heard it attributed to Einstein) that “if you can’t explain it to a grade schooler, you don’t really understand it yourself”. Clearly that is a mean paraphrase of something much more eloquently said elsewhere :). But that is a huge gift you have and it’s one I really, REALLY appreciate!

I understand the idea that teaching is a bit of a drag from a researcher’s perspective. Not everyone can have a passion for teaching. But I think that everyone should understand that the better you can teach, the more it informs your own understanding outside of the class–by learning to communicate ideas in different effective ways to people who don’t understand them, or the background, you can often find new perspectives on it yourself. It’s true in every field I’ve encountered from martial arts to cage fighting to literature to history to philosophy and politics, so I don’t know why it shouldn’t apply in some form to the hard sciences :). [/quote]

I’ve found that the best teachers are the people who really understand the subject matter AND can communicate it in a manner that encourages their audience to believe they can understand it too.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Yes, yes, and Yes. And that is one of the things that I respect so much about you. I’ve mentioned several times before in various places here about how I had a phenomenal Calc 2 teacher that finally could explain things to me in an understandable intuitive fashion, and how much that changed my grade (from a D to and A). I wasn’t stupid, I just had shitty ass teachers. [/quote]

Having good teachers for introductory calculus and physics is an absolute must, especially these days where kids are coming out of high school knowing much less about math then was required even 10 years ago. Freshmen and sophomore students need a good teacher and mentor to help them learn those crucial subjects and to help them learn the problem solving and critical thinking skills that are needed. Unfortunately, by the time professors are at the point where they are really good at teaching the course and explaining things to students, they are senior enough to get out of teaching those classes and push it off on a less experienced professor. It is starting to become a real problem because students struggle so much with those classes and with developing the math and problem solving skills that should have been taught in high school that they give up and switch to another major that does not require the more advanced math skills like computer science or engineering. This is leading to an increasingly noticeable shortage of physicists and mathematicians.

That is a good quote, and I know Einstein said something along the same lines, but I do not know if it started with him. Probably not, and I imagine it started out as something a lot less mean. I know a lot of people who try to make things sound so complicated just to show off how smart they are, but I never felt the need to do that. I genuinely love sharing the knowledge I have spent decades acquiring with people, which means explaining things clearly.

I have also noticed that a lot of professors treat teaching as something that they just have to do in between their research and other things they would rather be doing, but I take my role as an educator very seriously. These kids pay a LOT of money to learn from me and I at least owe them a good teacher. Plus, these kids really are the future of science and engineering and whatever fields they choose. If us professors half ass on teaching them, we are just hurting our fields in the future and I just can’t do that.


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California banning foie gras