Obama's Pastor

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
821

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
The previous several paragraphs. [/quote]

All of that provided the following quote on Wright’s stance. The rest, according to even you, is second hand hear-say with no proof.

[quote]WRIGHT: OK. The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history.

It comes from the principles of Kawaida, the second principle being Kuji Salawi (ph), which is self-determination, us naming ourselves, and not saying we are superior to anybody. We have no hierarchical arrangement.

When you say an African-centered way of thinking, African-centered philosophy, African-centered theology, you’re talking about one center. We’re talking about something that’s different. And different does not mean deficient…
[/quote]

The more I hear of the man, the less I am impressed, but this is a far cry from many of the accusations I’ve heard from you and others. If you could possibly find a quote of him blaming Jesus’s death on racial slur Italians, I would gladly read it.

822

Well, this will hopefully be my last post:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

All of that provided the following quote on Wright’s stance. The rest, according to even you, is second hand hear-say with no proof.[/quote]

There is plenty of information explaining Wright’s devotion to Black Liberation Theology and its radical politics, including Wright himself saying that is what the church aspires to teach as its main mission, but you have no interest in conceding this obvious point, so there is little reason to continue.

This is not news for anyone following the campaigns:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23835328/

823

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The previous several paragraphs.

All of that provided the following quote on Wright’s stance. The rest, according to even you, is second hand hear-say with no proof.

WRIGHT: OK. The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history.

It comes from the principles of Kawaida, the second principle being Kuji Salawi (ph), which is self-determination, us naming ourselves, and not saying we are superior to anybody. We have no hierarchical arrangement.

When you say an African-centered way of thinking, African-centered philosophy, African-centered theology, you’re talking about one center. We’re talking about something that’s different. And different does not mean deficient…

The more I hear of the man, the less I am impressed, but this is a far cry from many of the accusations I’ve heard from you and others. If you could possibly find a quote of him blaming Jesus’s death on racial slur Italians, I would gladly read it. [/quote]

Was Wright born in Africa? If not, he is deluding himself. He is no more African than I am. And there are people from all races who were born in Africa and therefore actually African.

The fact that his ancestors may have come from Africa is irrelevant. Those who are actual from Africa, or who still live there, would tell him that he is not African at all and knows nothing about the African culture.

So if he was not born in African or even lived there he is not qualified to speak for them. The only thing he can speak to, as Pro x can speak to, is the Black American experience.

824

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
The previous several paragraphs.

All of that provided the following quote on Wright’s stance. The rest, according to even you, is second hand hear-say with no proof.

WRIGHT: OK. The African-centered point of view does not assume superiority, nor does it assume separatism. It assumes Africans speaking for themselves as subjects in history, not objects in history.

It comes from the principles of Kawaida, the second principle being Kuji Salawi (ph), which is self-determination, us naming ourselves, and not saying we are superior to anybody. We have no hierarchical arrangement.

When you say an African-centered way of thinking, African-centered philosophy, African-centered theology, you’re talking about one center. We’re talking about something that’s different. And different does not mean deficient…

The more I hear of the man, the less I am impressed, but this is a far cry from many of the accusations I’ve heard from you and others. If you could possibly find a quote of him blaming Jesus’s death on racial slur Italians, I would gladly read it.

Was Wright born in Africa? If not, he is deluding himself. He is no more African than I am. And there are people from all races who were born in Africa and therefore actually African.

The fact that his ancestors may have come from Africa is irrelevant. Those who are actual from Africa, or who still live there, would tell him that he is not African at all and knows nothing about the African culture.

So if he was not born in African or even lived there he is not qualified to speak for them. The only thing he can speak to, as Pro x can speak to, is the Black American experience.

[/quote]

I have never cared to analyze all of the man’s beliefs. One of the reasons that some of the beliefs of Farrakhan are tolerated are because at the base of it is bringing the black community together as a positive force. That was why so many “non-Farrakhan supporters” went to the Million Man March. I have mentioned similar in what I have observed in the Indian community, an ability to come together and support each other. That is largely missing in the black community when I truly believe there used to be a “village raises the child” mentality. This is not a negative when seen from that aspect. I could care less if the man wants to associate himself with “African beliefs” as I don’t necessarily fault those who celebrate Kwanzaa either. At the base of it is unity within the community.

I do not support racist statements like “garlic nosed Italians” which is where I draw the line. I do not consider “White America” to be the same as I have gone into detail enough for that not to be necessary again.

I have no clue as to what frequency some of these statements were made or even if anything similar was actually stated IN church. The italian remark was from a eulogy outside of regular church service. I agree the man sounds touched in the head. My only concern is if he has done more positive than good and whether any of this was actually going on regularly during church services. From what I gather, it was not or we would have much more proof of it.

826

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

One of the reasons that some of the beliefs of Farrakhan are tolerated are because at the base of it is bringing the black community together as a positive force.

You think bringing the black community together under a banner of hate is a positive thing?

What about all the Jews and other groups that Farrakhan is against? I doubt if they think there is anything positive about that hateful jerk.

You should think more and post less…really.

[/quote]

I think the real question here is how can someone with a hate-filled agenda bring the community together in a positive way? Can good things come about in the White community by the Skin-head leader? I would say no.

However, to be fair, it is not an apples to apples comparison. Because of the internal and external trauma that has occurred in the Black community, they do need to have a strong community focus to move forward in a positive way. But the question is, can a guy like Wright help or hurt this cause? I personally think he will create more hate-filled followers, which will not support a positive Black culture.

And I do think that he is not right in the head as well.

828

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

One of the reasons that some of the beliefs of Farrakhan are tolerated are because at the base of it is bringing the black community together as a positive force.

You think bringing the black community together under a banner of hate is a positive thing?

What about all the Jews and other groups that Farrakhan is against? I doubt if they think there is anything positive about that hateful jerk.

You should think more and post less…really.

I think the real question here is how can someone with a hate-filled agenda bring the community together in a positive way? Can good things come about in the White community by the Skin-head leader? I would say no.

However, to be fair, it is not an apples to apples comparison. Because of the internal and external trauma that has occurred in the Black community, they do need to have a strong community focus to move forward in a positive way. But the question is, can a guy like Wright help or hurt this cause? I personally think he will create more hate-filled followers, which will not support a positive Black culture.

And I do think that he is not right in the head as well.

Good insights Lorisco.

No one can deny the historical struggle that black people have had in this country. But, as you say a person like Wright helps no one. How can love and understanding come from this hate filled individual?

And as far as Obama choosing to attend Wrights Church for 20 years, calling him an Uncle and quoting him in his book, well there’s just no excuse for this.

[/quote]

Well, I think the issue may be that because Obama has been going to this church for 20yrs, it is a community or family. It may be the other church members that keep him there, not Wright. Meaning that it’s like a very large dysfunctional family, complete with the crazy-ass uncle (Wright) that everyone thinks is nuts, but continue to tolerate because he is part of the family.

829

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

One of the reasons that some of the beliefs of Farrakhan are tolerated are because at the base of it is bringing the black community together as a positive force.

You think bringing the black community together under a banner of hate is a positive thing?

What about all the Jews and other groups that Farrakhan is against? I doubt if they think there is anything positive about that hateful jerk.

You should think more and post less…really.

I think the real question here is how can someone with a hate-filled agenda bring the community together in a positive way? Can good things come about in the White community by the Skin-head leader? I would say no.

However, to be fair, it is not an apples to apples comparison. Because of the internal and external trauma that has occurred in the Black community, they do need to have a strong community focus to move forward in a positive way. But the question is, can a guy like Wright help or hurt this cause? I personally think he will create more hate-filled followers, which will not support a positive Black culture.

And I do think that he is not right in the head as well.

Good insights Lorisco.

No one can deny the historical struggle that black people have had in this country. But, as you say a person like Wright helps no one. How can love and understanding come from this hate filled individual?

And as far as Obama choosing to attend Wrights Church for 20 years, calling him an Uncle and quoting him in his book, well there’s just no excuse for this.

Well, I think the issue may be that because Obama has been going to this church for 20yrs, it is a community or family. It may be the other church members that keep him there, not Wright. Meaning that it’s like a very large dysfunctional family, complete with the crazy-ass uncle (Wright) that everyone thinks is nuts, but continue to tolerate because he is part of the family.

[/quote]

That’s what we’ve been saying from the beginning.

831

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

One of the reasons that some of the beliefs of Farrakhan are tolerated are because at the base of it is bringing the black community together as a positive force.

You think bringing the black community together under a banner of hate is a positive thing?

What about all the Jews and other groups that Farrakhan is against? I doubt if they think there is anything positive about that hateful jerk.

You should think more and post less…really.

I think the real question here is how can someone with a hate-filled agenda bring the community together in a positive way? Can good things come about in the White community by the Skin-head leader? I would say no.

However, to be fair, it is not an apples to apples comparison. Because of the internal and external trauma that has occurred in the Black community, they do need to have a strong community focus to move forward in a positive way. But the question is, can a guy like Wright help or hurt this cause? I personally think he will create more hate-filled followers, which will not support a positive Black culture.

And I do think that he is not right in the head as well.

Good insights Lorisco.

No one can deny the historical struggle that black people have had in this country. But, as you say a person like Wright helps no one. How can love and understanding come from this hate filled individual?

And as far as Obama choosing to attend Wrights Church for 20 years, calling him an Uncle and quoting him in his book, well there’s just no excuse for this.

Well, I think the issue may be that because Obama has been going to this church for 20yrs, it is a community or family. It may be the other church members that keep him there, not Wright. Meaning that it’s like a very large dysfunctional family, complete with the crazy-ass uncle (Wright) that everyone thinks is nuts, but continue to tolerate because he is part of the family.

That’s what we’ve been saying from the beginning.

And…that’s the big lie that won’t wash with the American people. Most adults who are old enough to vote will figure that one out…quickly.

[/quote]

Would you be saying this if it was McCain’s pastor who was a retard? I tend to reserve judgment until I hear Obama say racist shit like Wright, not guilt by association.

If we really believed in guilt by association, then we should put all politicians in jail as they all have associated with less than honest people.

833

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Would you be saying this if it was McCain’s pastor who was a retard? I tend to reserve judgment until I hear Obama say racist shit like Wright, not guilt by association.

If we really believed in guilt by association, then we should put all politicians in jail as they all have associated with less than honest people.

I don’t think it matters if it’s white or black, racism sucks. If McCain were somehow involved in a 20 year relationship with a white supremacist I would be roasting him as well.

As far as Obama not being the one who said those words, I agree. But why would he attend a Church for 20 years where the Pastor is a hateful racist? Why would his wife say…

“this is the first time I’ve ever been proud of my country”

Why would he say…

“The typical White person”

Why did Obama call Wright his “spiritual mentor”

Why did he quote Wright in his book?

Why does he look at Wright as an “Uncle”

Don’t expect Obama to be off guard, he’s a very sharp guy and he will continue to tell the people what he thinks they need to hear.

If you notice he’s not bragging about his liberal voting record in the Senate.

Why not?

Instead we hear about “Change”

Politics as usual and he’s a really good politician.

[/quote]

I’m not black, so you will have to ask Pro-X or other blacks to get their perspective about a lot of these questions. But, my opinion would be that both blacks and whites use stereotypical language. Historically, the media tolerates it from blacks but not whites. So it is likely that until recently no one raised an issue with the “typical whites” comment or other generalizations.

I also think that since institutional racism has not be absent for that long, the black community is accustom to responding in a certain way, that in today’s climate, would seem biased, racists, or at least stereotypical.

So I personally think Obama’s tolerance of Wright has to do with the past struggle blacks had to endure and the fact that he has been his pastor for over 20 years. Also, Obama is a liberal, so it’s no surprise to see him voting like one.

835

[quote]Chushin wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:

There is little in Wright’s message - rewarmed Marxist black liberation theology - that helps spread the message of unity under one set of spiritual ideas. Wright advances racist crackpot conspiracy theories and sows the seeds of division between races. He does little but preach politics from the pulpit, which eclipses any spiritual teaching.

And this feckless notion that Wright’s statements can be “contextualized” is horseshit - everyone gets his play on words (bless/damn), that isn’t the point. The point is that outside of his - by a preacher’s standards - blasphemous rantings, his message is not about “turning the other cheek”. It is about anger, hatred, and revenge.

Wright doesn’t bring anyone together under the tent of the church - he does the opposite. His black liberation theory doesn’t allow it.

We can only speculate as to what Jesus would do - but you seem insistent on Jesus’ desire to see unity. No problem - nothing in Wright’s radicalism is inspired to seek unity.

Wright is an angry, misplaced fraud. In a world where we should noting our accomplishments in getting past our divisions and feeling optimistic about what we have been able to do in order to take an extra step, Wright wants to reinforce the divisions, spew hate, and keep anger in the front of people’s minds. It’s not unusual - people looooooooove to be victims - it gets them attention.

He is no healer. He wallows in victimization because of the attention it brings - and the money, too, witness his 10,000 square foot retirement pad.

Race hustling is good work if you can get it - but it is likely nothing Jesus was interested in having be part of his mission. Wright exploits Christianity for his own selfish ends - his politics and his livelihood. I suspect that Jesus would be none too pleased with using Christianity for such selfish, earthly pursuits.

And THAT’S why they call him “Thunderbolt!”[/quote]

The man IS good, isn’t he? Even when he’s shredding my posts, I have to admit that he is GOOD!!

836

wright’s opinions haven’t changed my opinion of Obama’s and I don’t think they will. The media is and will continue pulling the wool over the American people by blowing up issues like this as if Obama can control what his pastor says or even what his wife says. People need to realize that in politics the only thing that should matter is what a politician does, feels, and thinks.

To inject the idea that an association with slightly off people makes a politician corrupted and untrustworthy is ridiculous because if this were the case then no one would be in charge…but then again all of you still making a big fuss out of his statements fail to look up the fact that Wright is a veteran and a victim of dark and crazy times for African Americans so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that he acts in and speaks in this manner.

In my opinion Wright should have been more careful about this considering that Obama was getting involved in politics…but I don’t think that he was off the mark about the USA’s “chickens coming home to roost” because our government has since WW2 been entrenched in one war after another getting involved in shit that didn’t involve them…and this time it ain’t just the pastor who said who has expressed disappointment…the whole world has expressed this.

838

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Steel88 wrote:
wright’s opinions haven’t changed my opinion of Obama’s and I don’t think they will. The media is and will continue pulling the wool over the American people by blowing up issues like this as if Obama can control what his pastor says or even what his wife says. People need to realize that in politics the only thing that should matter is what a politician does, feels, and thinks.

I fear that the entire point has been lost on you.

Has it?

Do you understand that it’s not what Wright has said that is bad?

Do you understand that what is problematic is that Obama sat there for 20 years listening to this stuff?

How would you react if McCain had listened to a white supremacist for 20 years and instead of speaking out against him…called him uncle and quoted him in his book?

[/quote]

I don’t think that is a fair comparison. McCain and the whites have not endured hundreds of years of oppression. The mainstream black culture is different and more accepting of crazy than whites because of their past. So even though it sounds strange, the black culture would tolerate Wright more easily than the white culture tolerating McCain going to a KKK church.

So as a black person, Obama is not outside of the norm and should therefore not be taken to task on what other blacks in his community are saying.

840

I’ve had to sit through this being a hispanic whose family and friends openly admit to hating or not like black people or people of other races. Sometimes you have to sit through crap with some people because they still have good things to say. In my case my family doesn’t have much of value to say for me but if you look into Wright’s history you can see that he is a rather influential individual. I still think that he should have watched his mouth though, but, what he said won’t change my mind about Obama one bit because I see that he is being honest about pretty much everything he’s said so far.

Edit:

Being hispanic does not mean that we are the only ones going through these issues…but it doesn’t seem like this kind of disconnect with family and friends involving race and multiculturalism is as abundant in other demographics(Black, White, etc.)