Obama to Extend Patriot Act

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
162

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

I think it is wrong to assume that Wilson entered the War for the purpose you suggest. Look at the lead-up to 1917. Wilson did everything he could to stay out. INCLUDING not declaring war after the Luistania was sunk. There were too many provocations for him to ignore (German plans for invasion of U.S. from Mexico/unrestricted submarine warfare, etc). Oh, he didn’t “CAVE” at all. His points were out-voted.
[/quote]

Are you capable of any of independent thought? Wilson was itching to get the U.S involved in WWI.


President Woodrow Wilson established The Committee on Public Information (CPI) through Executive order 2594 on April 13, 1917. The committee consisted of George Creel (Chairman) and as ex officio members the Secretaries of: State (Robert Lansing), War (Newton D. Baker), and the Navy (Josephus Daniels).


The purpose of the CPI was to influence American public opinion toward supporting U.S. participation in World War I via a prolonged propaganda campaign. Among those who participated in it were Wilson advisers Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays…[/quote]

You are a fool. First of all, NEVER link wikipedia.

SECOND, LOOK AT THE DATE 4/13/1917!!!

Then look at the Lusitania/German invasion plans.

Now, back to your hole.

JeffR
[/quote]

So, you are saying that the Wiki link is incorrect? I can post a handful of links if you need convincing?

What do the dates have to do with a Propaganda campaign full of lies and half-truths designed with the specific intent of garnering support from a isolationist public?

[/quote]

Wow.

Instead of saying, “You know, Jeff, I didn’t look at the dates. Of course, Wilson was trying to galvanize the public behind entering WWI when it was deemed necessary” this is your response.

Ok, wikipedia still has subjects that the user can edit. They tightened up their editing, but, again, some things can still be edited.

Imagine the havoc that can be wreaked on a site like that by the aggressively ignorant. For instance, you. So, you and an editor on wikipedia both are wrong about a subject. You’ll see it in wikipedia as if it’s truth.

By the way, I’d be curious to hear what lies and half truths were put out there by Wilson.

Get me some information. (Not, from wikipedia)

Thanks in advance.

JeffR
[/quote]

Seriously?

The 4th link is especially kewl.

[/quote]

Thanks. I read your “kewl” link. It certainly seems like there was misinformation put out there.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that these lies/omissions were enough to obscure the simple fact that the Germans were, in fact, killing innocent American civilians and planning on invading the U.S.

If that doesn’t warrant war, nothing would.

JeffR

[/quote]

And the Allies killed innocent civilians too. That’s not the best argument to put forth.

Germany was not going to invade the U.S. It would have been literally impossible…even using Mexico as the starting point. Just the idea of this is hilarious, especially with early 20th Century technology.

You can’t use this as an argument so please, stop while your head is still above water.[/quote]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Please start deleting some of the irrelevant wall of quoted texts from your posts. Sheesh.[/quote]

I don’t understand.

163

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

I think it is wrong to assume that Wilson entered the War for the purpose you suggest. Look at the lead-up to 1917. Wilson did everything he could to stay out. INCLUDING not declaring war after the Luistania was sunk. There were too many provocations for him to ignore (German plans for invasion of U.S. from Mexico/unrestricted submarine warfare, etc). Oh, he didn’t “CAVE” at all. His points were out-voted.
[/quote]

Are you capable of any of independent thought? Wilson was itching to get the U.S involved in WWI.


President Woodrow Wilson established The Committee on Public Information (CPI) through Executive order 2594 on April 13, 1917. The committee consisted of George Creel (Chairman) and as ex officio members the Secretaries of: State (Robert Lansing), War (Newton D. Baker), and the Navy (Josephus Daniels).


The purpose of the CPI was to influence American public opinion toward supporting U.S. participation in World War I via a prolonged propaganda campaign. Among those who participated in it were Wilson advisers Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays…[/quote]

You are a fool. First of all, NEVER link wikipedia.

SECOND, LOOK AT THE DATE 4/13/1917!!!

Then look at the Lusitania/German invasion plans.

Now, back to your hole.

JeffR
[/quote]

So, you are saying that the Wiki link is incorrect? I can post a handful of links if you need convincing?

What do the dates have to do with a Propaganda campaign full of lies and half-truths designed with the specific intent of garnering support from a isolationist public?

[/quote]

Wow.

Instead of saying, “You know, Jeff, I didn’t look at the dates. Of course, Wilson was trying to galvanize the public behind entering WWI when it was deemed necessary” this is your response.

Ok, wikipedia still has subjects that the user can edit. They tightened up their editing, but, again, some things can still be edited.

Imagine the havoc that can be wreaked on a site like that by the aggressively ignorant. For instance, you. So, you and an editor on wikipedia both are wrong about a subject. You’ll see it in wikipedia as if it’s truth.

By the way, I’d be curious to hear what lies and half truths were put out there by Wilson.

Get me some information. (Not, from wikipedia)

Thanks in advance.

JeffR
[/quote]

Seriously?

The 4th link is especially kewl.

[/quote]

Thanks. I read your “kewl” link. It certainly seems like there was misinformation put out there.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that these lies/omissions were enough to obscure the simple fact that the Germans were, in fact, killing innocent American civilians and planning on invading the U.S.

If that doesn’t warrant war, nothing would.

JeffR

[/quote]

And the Allies killed innocent civilians too. That’s not the best argument to put forth.

Germany was not going to invade the U.S. It would have been literally impossible…even using Mexico as the starting point. Just the idea of this is hilarious, especially with early 20th Century technology.

You can’t use this as an argument so please, stop while your head is still above water.[/quote]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Please start deleting some of the irrelevant wall of quoted texts from your posts. Sheesh.[/quote]

I don’t understand.

edit-awesome double post. Push, I still don’t understand what you want me to do

166

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

I think it is wrong to assume that Wilson entered the War for the purpose you suggest. Look at the lead-up to 1917. Wilson did everything he could to stay out. INCLUDING not declaring war after the Luistania was sunk. There were too many provocations for him to ignore (German plans for invasion of U.S. from Mexico/unrestricted submarine warfare, etc). Oh, he didn’t “CAVE” at all. His points were out-voted.
[/quote]

Are you capable of any of independent thought? Wilson was itching to get the U.S involved in WWI.


President Woodrow Wilson established The Committee on Public Information (CPI) through Executive order 2594 on April 13, 1917. The committee consisted of George Creel (Chairman) and as ex officio members the Secretaries of: State (Robert Lansing), War (Newton D. Baker), and the Navy (Josephus Daniels).


The purpose of the CPI was to influence American public opinion toward supporting U.S. participation in World War I via a prolonged propaganda campaign. Among those who participated in it were Wilson advisers Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays…[/quote]

You are a fool. First of all, NEVER link wikipedia.

SECOND, LOOK AT THE DATE 4/13/1917!!!

Then look at the Lusitania/German invasion plans.

Now, back to your hole.

JeffR
[/quote]

So, you are saying that the Wiki link is incorrect? I can post a handful of links if you need convincing?

What do the dates have to do with a Propaganda campaign full of lies and half-truths designed with the specific intent of garnering support from a isolationist public?

[/quote]

Wow.

Instead of saying, “You know, Jeff, I didn’t look at the dates. Of course, Wilson was trying to galvanize the public behind entering WWI when it was deemed necessary” this is your response.

Ok, wikipedia still has subjects that the user can edit. They tightened up their editing, but, again, some things can still be edited.

Imagine the havoc that can be wreaked on a site like that by the aggressively ignorant. For instance, you. So, you and an editor on wikipedia both are wrong about a subject. You’ll see it in wikipedia as if it’s truth.

By the way, I’d be curious to hear what lies and half truths were put out there by Wilson.

Get me some information. (Not, from wikipedia)

Thanks in advance.

JeffR
[/quote]

Seriously?

The 4th link is especially kewl.

[/quote]

Thanks. I read your “kewl” link. It certainly seems like there was misinformation put out there.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that these lies/omissions were enough to obscure the simple fact that the Germans were, in fact, killing innocent American civilians and planning on invading the U.S.

If that doesn’t warrant war, nothing would.

JeffR

[/quote]

And the Allies killed innocent civilians too. That’s not the best argument to put forth.

Germany was not going to invade the U.S. It would have been literally impossible…even using Mexico as the starting point. Just the idea of this is hilarious, especially with early 20th Century technology.

You can’t use this as an argument so please, stop while your head is still above water.[/quote]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Please start deleting some of the irrelevant wall of quoted texts from your posts. Sheesh.[/quote]

I don’t understand.

edit-awesome double post. Push, I still don’t understand what you want me to do[/quote]

Take this ^^^^^^ and …[/quote]

No way. All of my wall text is relevant.

167

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Please start deleting some of the irrelevant wall of quoted texts from your posts. Sheesh.[/quote]

I don’t understand.

edit-awesome double post. Push, I still don’t understand what you want me to do[/quote]

…make it look like this ^^^.[/quote]

I understood you, I was just being a smart ass.

168

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]dhickey wrote:

You remind me of that scene in the airplane movie titled “counter-point.” The guy in that said, “They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”

The problem for you, is that was meant as a joke.

You are serious.

I want you to think through the ramifications of what you are suggesting.

When one country can violate international law and declare unrestricted submarine warfare, what is to stop them from expanding the “war zone” into the Potomac?

[/quote]

New York time May 8, 1915:

Secret of the Lusitania: Arms find challenges Allied claims it was solely a passenger ship

Her sinking with the loss of almost 1,200 lives caused such outrage that it propelled the U.S. into the First World War.

But now divers have revealed a dark secret about the cargo carried by the Lusitania on its final journey in May 1915.

Munitions they found in the hold suggest that the Germans had been right all along in claiming the ship was carrying war materials and was a legitimate military target.

A bunch of Americans decided to sail on the Lusitania after they had been warned by an ad and by anonymous telegramms and then they died when a ship that carried millions of rounds of ammunition was sunk.

So?

[/quote]

I consider bota’s home to be in the war zone.

Get ready to pay for my things.

Oh, in case you can’t translate, it’s not ok to have unrestricted submarine warfare.

Americans should be able to travel the oceans/have commerce, etc.

JeffR
[/quote]

It is also not ok to starve civilians.

When the gloves are off, they are off.
[/quote]

That’s nice. I don’t think Britain was hindering American travel/commerce circa 1914-1918. If they were, let me know.

Wait, wasn’t the Luisitania English?

JeffR[/quote]

Yup, it was an English ship, carrying ammunition in wartime and Americans chose to board it in times of war after having been warned repeatedly.

So what exactly is the problem?

That was a legitimate target.

169

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

When one country can violate international law and declare unrestricted submarine warfare, what is to stop them from expanding the “war zone” into the Potomac?
[/quote]

Your last several posts in this thread have been a regurgitation of a 5th grade history book. Nice and sanitized.

You realize that the Lusitania knowingly sailed into hostile waters? Americans were warned numerous times that it would be dangerous to take a cruise in the North Atlantic. Civilians and war zones don’t mix.

This makes as much sense as you going to Iraq for a vacation and then blaming the Iraqi government if something bad happens to you.

Don’t go sailing the North Atlantic when you know there are U-Boats sinking everything in sight.

German victory was never “likely”. I have no clue where you get this stuff. The Western Powers were butchering each other over areas of land the size of parking lots and football fields.

If any side was going to break without American involvement, it would have been Germany. The naval blockade of the Fatherland was working, very well. So well that the German government had instituted food rationing. It’s hard to convince starving people to keep fighting.

Without American involvement, worst case scenario, the Western Powers beat each other to a pulp to the point that they come to “fair” peace terms for all sides involved.

[/quote]

I really dislike aggressive ignorance. You are wrong on so many points, it’s hard to know where to start.

Maybe you could just re-read what I wrote and start there.

Or we could discuss a specific instance, the 1918 German offensive. (kind of puts the lie to your, "hard to convince starving people to keep fighting, crap).

Hint: the trench stalemate was broken.

Oh, you must have missed 5th grade.

Please retake (if you can hack it).

Thanks in advance.

JeffR
[/quote]

The 1918 offensive you speak of failed. The Germans failed in the offensives main objective. It not only cost them large numbers of deaths, but they lost some of their best trained Soldiers.

And to the effects of the naval blockade of Germany.

How does 1,000 calories a day sound? By 1917, that was the caloric consumption of the average German citizen. That same year, tuberculosis, scurvy, and dysentery where wide spread as a result. Over 760,000 thousand wartime deaths due to the naval blockade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany[/quote]

You are spamming. I said no more wikipedia.

Oh, dimwit, why did the offensive fail?
[/quote]

I’m not going to the leg work for you anymore. Take off your Uncle Sam glasses and do some of your own research.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=british+naval+blockade+ww1

The offensive failed because it wasn’t sustainable, whether the U.S was involved or not. It was why both sides were content up to that point with staying inside their trenches. Soldiers were still dying, but at least the respectve Armies were not “blowing their loads” in huge offensives. This is what happened with Germany. The offensive wasn’t quick and decisive. [/quote]

In fact the French soldiers were making it very clear in the end that they would no longer follow any orders to attack and the French as well as the German artillery shelled the enemies entrenchements at the exact same time each day in the exact same order so that noone would get hurt.

They were already in some sort of de facto truce when the socialists revolted in Germany and wanted a peace agreement. The terms of said agreement in no way reflected the outcome of the war and was a major propaganda point for the Nazis, the “DolchstoÃ?legende”, meaning they argued that they did not really lose WWI but were betrayed by a dagger in the back.

Which is not entirely false.

JeffR is right though that after the Russians were out of the war Germany made some major progress on the western front. It is not entirely impossible that the Germans would have “won” the war but I think the results of the peace treaty would have been undistinquishable from a face saving truce.

170

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Jeff R wrote:

I think it is wrong to assume that Wilson entered the War for the purpose you suggest. Look at the lead-up to 1917. Wilson did everything he could to stay out. INCLUDING not declaring war after the Luistania was sunk. There were too many provocations for him to ignore (German plans for invasion of U.S. from Mexico/unrestricted submarine warfare, etc). Oh, he didn’t “CAVE” at all. His points were out-voted.
[/quote]

Are you capable of any of independent thought? Wilson was itching to get the U.S involved in WWI.


President Woodrow Wilson established The Committee on Public Information (CPI) through Executive order 2594 on April 13, 1917. The committee consisted of George Creel (Chairman) and as ex officio members the Secretaries of: State (Robert Lansing), War (Newton D. Baker), and the Navy (Josephus Daniels).


The purpose of the CPI was to influence American public opinion toward supporting U.S. participation in World War I via a prolonged propaganda campaign. Among those who participated in it were Wilson advisers Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays…[/quote]

You are a fool. First of all, NEVER link wikipedia.

SECOND, LOOK AT THE DATE 4/13/1917!!!

Then look at the Lusitania/German invasion plans.

Now, back to your hole.

JeffR
[/quote]

So, you are saying that the Wiki link is incorrect? I can post a handful of links if you need convincing?

What do the dates have to do with a Propaganda campaign full of lies and half-truths designed with the specific intent of garnering support from a isolationist public?

[/quote]

Wow.

Instead of saying, “You know, Jeff, I didn’t look at the dates. Of course, Wilson was trying to galvanize the public behind entering WWI when it was deemed necessary” this is your response.

Ok, wikipedia still has subjects that the user can edit. They tightened up their editing, but, again, some things can still be edited.

Imagine the havoc that can be wreaked on a site like that by the aggressively ignorant. For instance, you. So, you and an editor on wikipedia both are wrong about a subject. You’ll see it in wikipedia as if it’s truth.

By the way, I’d be curious to hear what lies and half truths were put out there by Wilson.

Get me some information. (Not, from wikipedia)

Thanks in advance.

JeffR
[/quote]

Seriously?

The 4th link is especially kewl.

[/quote]

Thanks. I read your “kewl” link. It certainly seems like there was misinformation put out there.

Please do not delude yourself into thinking that these lies/omissions were enough to obscure the simple fact that the Germans were, in fact, killing innocent American civilians and planning on invading the U.S.

If that doesn’t warrant war, nothing would.

JeffR

[/quote]

And the Allies killed innocent civilians too. That’s not the best argument to put forth.

Germany was not going to invade the U.S. It would have been literally impossible…even using Mexico as the starting point. Just the idea of this is hilarious, especially with early 20th Century technology.

You can’t use this as an argument so please, stop while your head is still above water.[/quote]

Hey, all he want you to believe is that a nation that did not even have the naval capacity to break through a British blockade and feed her citizens would have wiped out the most powerful navy of that time, load their soldiers and materiel on their remaining ships though they were sick of fighting, cross the Atlantic, defeat the American and Mexican navy along the way, succesfully invade Mexico and then overrun the US while keeping their supply lines open across the Atlantic.

Ahem.

171

[quote]orion wrote:

And the Allies killed innocent civilians too. That’s not the best argument to put forth.

Germany was not going to invade the U.S. It would have been literally impossible…even using Mexico as the starting point. Just the idea of this is hilarious, especially with early 20th Century technology.

You can’t use this as an argument so please, stop while your head is still above water.[/quote]

After being responsible for coordinating my unit’s movement back home from Iraq, and that was only 167 of us, I can’t fathom the logistical nightmare of attempting an invasion of this scale.

And not only the invasion, but sustaining it as well.