Obama Speech to the AFT

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Teachers at Catholic schools get under $ 30,000 and their students outperform the students from good public schools.

Your ideas on compensation for the job are really out in left field.

Not really. It’s basic capitalism actually. Pay teachers more and you have more and better prospects applying. The argument isn’t that the current crop of teachers deserves more money, that would be leftist. It is that teachers need to be paid more so that we can get better teachers. I like HH’s solutions.

We pay teachers more already and it isn’t working. Our school system is rigged so their is no choice for the consumer. That invalidates the rules of competitive free enterprise.

No choice for consumer.

Union jacking up wages.

Artificial barries for entry.

With all these in place there is no point in raising salaries and hoping the teachers will be more motivated to do a better job.[/quote]

The current system, such as tenure was created for some very important reasons: (1) teachers often explore controversial topics. It comes with the territory in some fields. People were being fired for even discussing things like evolution not too long ago. Rather than deal with controversy, administrators would simply fire the teachers/profs. You had a watered down system of FEAR, not a recipe for new thoughts and ideas. (2) It was very tempting to fire an older teacher just because the person was older. Older people want more money and may require more health care and so forth. It was VERY common to have schools full of young inexperienced teachers because it saved money. Of course, if all you wanted to do was save money, yeah sure. Kind of like paying less for having a young person fresh out of med school operate on your kid, instead of the guy who’d done this operation hundreds of times…

I don’t know the answer to this. But I do know that expecting good people to run up huge debts in order to not be able to fix their roof or actually have a car that runs, to not be able to send their own kids to college, is simply stupid.

22

[quote]Standndeliver wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Teachers at Catholic schools get under $ 30,000 and their students outperform the students from good public schools.

Your ideas on compensation for the job are really out in left field.

While true, that has more to do with the type of kid who’s parents can afford private schooling, nothing to do with the teaching.
It is similar to why the Chinese have higher testing scores - they don’t let stupid kids stay in school too long.

At my high school, our avergae ACT score was 25, while the national was something like 20. The kids are brighter and the parents were a lot more involved. My mom and dad were always there volunteering and stuff. We used to make fun of the teachers for taking such loser jobs too, though not out loud to them. If I disrespected a teacher, my dad would have seriously beat me up.

[/quote]

Parents involved is a great point. When the parents are paying for something directly perhaps they feel the need to be involved.

23

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Teachers at Catholic schools get under $ 30,000 and their students outperform the students from good public schools.

Your ideas on compensation for the job are really out in left field.

Not really. It’s basic capitalism actually. Pay teachers more and you have more and better prospects applying. The argument isn’t that the current crop of teachers deserves more money, that would be leftist. It is that teachers need to be paid more so that we can get better teachers. I like HH’s solutions.

We pay teachers more already and it isn’t working. Our school system is rigged so their is no choice for the consumer. That invalidates the rules of competitive free enterprise.

No choice for consumer.

Union jacking up wages.

Artificial barries for entry.

With all these in place there is no point in raising salaries and hoping the teachers will be more motivated to do a better job.[/quote]

Raising wages is just the tip of the iceberg. The problems you listed also need to be addressed, as does tenure. Other problems include accountability for principals and other admininistrators. Artificial barriers is one that personally upsets me quite a bit. I have a degree in math and would like to teach, but to do that I would have to go back to school and spend thousands of dollars to get a teaching degree, when the fact of the matter is that I am better equipped to teach right now than most of those currently teaching. After my personal experiences with education and state universities, paying for another degree is the last thing I want to do, but of course self-study isn’t an option, they just want my money.

I don’t claim that raising wages will fix education, but it is part of the solution, and if money was spent more wisely it could be easily done. Raising wages, however, when done in conjuction with some of theses other things is not against conservative values, hence the reason for my first post.

24

[quote]tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Teachers at Catholic schools get under $ 30,000 and their students outperform the students from good public schools.

Your ideas on compensation for the job are really out in left field.

Not really. It’s basic capitalism actually. Pay teachers more and you have more and better prospects applying. The argument isn’t that the current crop of teachers deserves more money, that would be leftist. It is that teachers need to be paid more so that we can get better teachers. I like HH’s solutions.

We pay teachers more already and it isn’t working. Our school system is rigged so their is no choice for the consumer. That invalidates the rules of competitive free enterprise.

No choice for consumer.

Union jacking up wages.

Artificial barries for entry.

With all these in place there is no point in raising salaries and hoping the teachers will be more motivated to do a better job.

Raising wages is just the tip of the iceberg. The problems you listed also need to be addressed, as does tenure. Other problems include accountability for principals and other admininistrators. Artificial barriers is one that personally upsets me quite a bit. I have a degree in math and would like to teach, but to do that I would have to go back to school and spend thousands of dollars to get a teaching degree, when the fact of the matter is that I am better equipped to teach right now than most of those currently teaching. After my personal experiences with education and state universities, paying for another degree is the last thing I want to do, but of course self-study isn’t an option, they just want my money.

I don’t claim that raising wages will fix education, but it is part of the solution, and if money was spent more wisely it could be easily done. Raising wages, however, when done in conjuction with some of theses other things is not against conservative values, hence the reason for my first post.[/quote]

I have no problems with teachers getting paid. If the market demands they get more money then they get more money. Raising salaries (in many districts) right now is a complete waste of money and will not improve education at all.

25

I wouldn’t take what he says literally.

A good teacher can be a great role model for children. I don’t think he meant that teachers are a replacement for parents.

This speech was obviously directed at a specific left leaning audience.

26

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

I have no problems with teachers getting paid. If the market demands they get more money then they get more money. Raising salaries (in many districts) right now is a complete waste of money and will not improve education at all.

[/quote]

Agreed, and that’s exactly why I said the current crop of teachers shouldn’t be paid more. An overhaul is needed.

27

[quote]tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I have no problems with teachers getting paid. If the market demands they get more money then they get more money. Raising salaries (in many districts) right now is a complete waste of money and will not improve education at all.

Agreed, and that’s exactly why I said the current crop of teachers shouldn’t be paid more. An overhaul is needed.[/quote]

Our society decided long ago that it was cost-effective to underpay teachers. That saved money in the short term, but drove really top people to choose a different profession. Thus the profession is really ruined now.

The old song about ‘Putting kids first’ and ‘You shouldn’t be in it for the money’ lasted until the teachers tried to have a decent home for their kids, or to actually take a real vacation, or have a car that was less than 10 years old.

Blaming the dolts and cretins for the mess is irrational. By being cheap, society brought this about. Wal-mart prices, Wal-mart service…simple as that.

28

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

And yes, Zap, you don’t remember any teachers because of the lousy pay. You get what you pay for. Do you remember any particular K-Mart clerk?
[/quote]

Thank your union for that. How can you pay a teacher based on seniority rather than effectiveness. Blows my mind. It makes no sense for factory workers and should be punishible by death for teachers.

Good teachers should be making a lot more regardless of how long they have been teaching. This also discourages industry experts from going into teaching. They may have a desire to teach but would never take the same pay as some kid just out of school. We are really fucking our kids.

Teachers do get paid pretty well in MN. I have several friends and relatives that teach. My sister teaches in Texas and gets paid shit.

29

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Not in my school district and the local Catholic school. My school district is LOADED and full of rich kids including the sons and daughters of most of the Asian doctors at the hospital.

The local Catholic school is a dump and many of the kids are from working class families and they still out do the local public school that has a top reputation.

Part of the difference is the Catholic school actually teaches the kids the subject material while the the public school has constant assemblies wasting time with topics such as drugs, global warming etc. [/quote]

I’d say it has more to do with parental involvement. Parents tend to care more about your grades when they’re paying for your schooling through the ass.

I went to public school, only assemblies we ever had were for AIDs awareness once, and we got some Lincoln impersonator another time. That’s it, if you don’t include pep rally.

Trust me, despite all of the smart kids going to public, there are also a LOT of dumb ass kids, kids who wouldn’t be allowed and couldn’t afford the private schooling. Unless you live in some place like Greenwich of course.

My school has smarter kids than the private school. We got a girl going tro Columbia, a guy going to Duke, 4 going to Cornell (I’m one of em), a girl going to Yale, a girl going to USC, and a guy going to John Hopkins.

That KILLS the local private schools graduating classes top colleges. And yet, we’re still murdered in test scores. Why? Because we have inclusion kids, kids with serious mental disorders, and a big bunch of just plain old lazy and dumb kids that the private schools would never except.

Really rich schools, however, often have large drug problems. My school has none, compared the the rich schools in Nassau that have major cocaine and E problems.

30

You want to improve education? Fix No Child Left Behind. In theory, it’s great. In practice, it’s retarded.

It needs a huge dose of flexibility to be neutral instead of harmful, and a huge overhaul to actually be effective in a positive manner.

31

[quote]tedro wrote:

Raising wages is just the tip of the iceberg. The problems you listed also need to be addressed, as does tenure. Other problems include accountability for principals and other admininistrators.

Artificial barriers is one that personally upsets me quite a bit. I have a degree in math and would like to teach, but to do that I would have to go back to school and spend thousands of dollars to get a teaching degree, when the fact of the matter is that I am better equipped to teach right now than most of those currently teaching.

After my personal experiences with education and state universities, paying for another degree is the last thing I want to do, but of course self-study isn’t an option, they just want my money.
[/quote]

Ahhh the joys of licensing. Spun as consumer protection but merely a way for industry associations to limit resources and force the consumer to use one of their licensees. One of the biggest scams in the Medical and Legal professions as well.