[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Where are you on Healthcare Irish?
Do you support forcing people out of their current system they are happy with into a mandated rationed care system?
[/quote]
When will this happen? If you have benefits, you’ll be keeping them. You just will have to have insurance.
Why will it be gone? It’ll be there for me.
Not sure yet. Probably not, but if it would be cheaper than paying every bill they have when they get hurt as a charity case, then maybe.
[quote]
Did you know congress will not accept the plan for themselves and that they will NOT be a part of this and they will have a system different that all us “subjects”???[/quote]
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Where are you on Healthcare Irish?
Do you support forcing people out of their current system they are happy with into a mandated rationed care system?
When will this happen? If you have benefits, you’ll be keeping them. You just will have to have insurance.
[/quote]
I believe the provision is that you can keep it…for now…BUT if you switch jobs you’re screwed into it. Group medical plans are company and risk pool based.
The biggest slap in the face is it’s forced and congress won’t even use it…, and they FINE you the cost of the plan anyway if you don’t carry any. Did you know that 1/3 of all uninsured are uninsured by choice, and not affordability?
Trib- there are many posters on these threads over the years (some that reappear) that have nothing but enmity for any and all Democrats. I haven’t seen Thunder say something positive about any Democrat in a long fuckin time, if ever. And that’s fine- I don’t expect them too. But as always, the conservatives pretend to wear their halos and crosses everytime I attack something a Republican does or defend a Democrat.[/quote]
Hogwash - no one is pretending to have a halo. You said something flakey about Obama and his level of awesome coolness, I suggested you subtract some cool points because he wore mom jeans and threw the opening pitch like a sissy. You got your panties in a bunch, thinking Obama’s “manhood” was under attack, and the teary-eyed tantrum ensued.
Moreover, I have expressed support for Democrats on a number of occasions, and criticized Republicans. Since I don’t take politics nearly as personally as you do, nor do I reduce politicians down to cartoonish caricatures for convenient strawman purposes, it isn’t a problem for me. I like Walt Minnick and John Tanner, and I think Joe Biden - though I disagree with him on most issues - is a good man in a town without many of them.
And, I don’t hate Obama - I don’t like irrational criticism of him, and I won’t assume he acts in bad faith as an initial matter on every policy directive. I will criticize what he proposes from a policy perspective and how he proposes it - but criticism, even harsh criticism, isn’t the same as the rank stupidity that Bush Derangement Syndrome generated.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
<<< I won’t assume he acts in bad faith as an initial matter on every policy directive. >>>
[/quote]
I don’t believe he fires one single synapse, spends one single calorie, or utters one single syllable out of love for or patriotic duty to the United States as defined by the overall vision that emerged from the American revolution.
I believe he believes that reigning in all the dominant prosperity, advancement and world influence that that vision launched is in the best interests of the world at large which is where his true misguided altruistic loyalty lies. (Damn, I had to use the word “altruistic” didn’t I?)
As much as I respect your views and recognize your level of education as far exceeding my own, not even you will dissuade me from this view.
I don’t believe he fires one single synapse, spends one single calorie, or utters one single syllable out of love for or patriotic duty to the United States as defined by the overall vision that emerged from the American revolution.
I believe he believes that reigning in all the dominant prosperity, advancement and world influence that that vision launched is in the best interests of the world at large which is where his true misguided altruistic loyalty lies. (Damn, I had to use the word “altruistic” didn’t I?)
As much as I respect your views and recognize your level of education as far exceeding my own, not even you will dissuade me from this view.[/quote]
I respect that point of view - what I mean to say is that I take Obama to believe that Obama thinks he is doing the right thing. His problem is that he is dead wrong about what the right thing is. This, by contrast, is not the same thing as the rank idiocy that accused Bush of starting wars for (1) oil, (2) to wipe out a race of people, or (3) to start a Fourth Reich in America.
My point is that I don’t want to see criticism of Obama be the opposite of that same, stupid, stupid coin we saw with Bush - America loses when political discourse gets that dumb, divisive, and ugly.
I don’t - and won’t - pull punches in my criticism of the most left-wing presidents in our history, but I also won’t indulge in the same nonsense that was the shame of the “loyal opposition” during the Bush years.
I don’t believe he fires one single synapse, spends one single calorie, or utters one single syllable out of love for or patriotic duty to the United States as defined by the overall vision that emerged from the American revolution.
I believe he believes that reigning in all the dominant prosperity, advancement and world influence that that vision launched is in the best interests of the world at large which is where his true misguided altruistic loyalty lies. (Damn, I had to use the word “altruistic” didn’t I?)
As much as I respect your views and recognize your level of education as far exceeding my own, not even you will dissuade me from this view.
I respect that point of view - what I mean to say is that I take Obama to believe that Obama thinks he is doing the right thing. His problem is that he is dead wrong about what the right thing is. This, by contrast, is not the same thing as the rank idiocy that accused Bush of starting wars for (1) oil, (2) to wipe out a race of people, or (3) to start a Fourth Reich in America.
My point is that I don’t want to see criticism of Obama be the opposite of that same, stupid, stupid coin we saw with Bush - America loses when political discourse gets that dumb, divisive, and ugly.
I don’t - and won’t - pull punches in my criticism of the most left-wing presidents in our history, but I also won’t indulge in the same nonsense that was the shame of the “loyal opposition” during the Bush years.[/quote]
With that clarification I wholeheartedly agree. Barring some miraculous epiphany, this guy is and will continue to provide a non stop supply of substantive issues begging for legitimate criticism. Not that I particularly long for that to be the case, but… it is. There should be no need to manufacture fictitious ones. I will say though that it IS much easier to envision the worst with this man than anybody else in my lifetime.
Rockscar: not to turn this into a healthcare thread (we have several) but the fact that some people are uninsured by choice is in fact one of the reasons that insurance costs are so high. It’s called adverse selection: young, healthy people don’t get insurance (or get insurance with higher deductibles) so the average person with extensive insurance coverage is less healthy. So insurers have to raise the prices, which leads even more people to avoid getting insurance, if they’re fairly healthy and money is tight, which forces insurers to raise their prices further. In a way, people who don’t get health insurance are free riders. Mandating coverage is a cost control measure.
I believe you’re right about the provisions, which I’ll admit are sneaky. It’s that old paradox Ezra Klein talks about: when you poll Americans, they want universal health care, but they don’t want to change their health care provider. Hence the “public option,” and the repeated PR mantra that you won’t have to change your healthcare provider. But the public option doesn’t have a prayer of actually competing with insurers & bringing down costs unless people actually use it, which, I think, is the reason why they’re using these kinds of fine-print tactics to get people on the public plan.
Thunderbolt: what on earth is wrong with young people? I’ll admit we have plenty to learn, but it’s not a character flaw to be born in a certain year.
As for being glad that we have now shown it’s possible to have a black president, that strikes me as common sense – and yes, I’ve often heard that said by people who don’t like Obama.
Thunderbolt: what on earth is wrong with young people? I’ll admit we have plenty to learn, but it’s not a character flaw to be born in a certain year.[/quote]
Doesn’t have to be, and I don’t believe that to be true as a matter of category. However, with youth comes a naivete that - in an age of rampant demagogues - creates some very, very bad political results.
I don’t mind charisma, and I think in the modern age it is near-impossible not to be charismatic and gain the job of the presidency. What I have no tolerance for is the substitution of “coolness” at the expense of nearly everything else that is substantive - which, it appears, happens a little too often not to warn of these days.
I use Obama as a proxy - how many young people voted for him based purely on the appeal of an image without even a basic understanding of his brand of economics, foreign policy, or executive competence?
I, for one, am very glad we elected a black president, and said as much when he was inaugurated. It is one hell of a statement for this country.
That said, on Day One he was our first black president - on Day Two, he was simply Mr. President, and his skin color is irrelevant to an assessment of his political makeup.
And, to be frank, I like a president who is “in touch” - whether Obama is, in fact, “in touch” is a separate question.
Trib- there are many posters on these threads over the years (some that reappear) that have nothing but enmity for any and all Democrats. I haven’t seen Thunder say something positive about any Democrat in a long fuckin time, if ever. And that’s fine- I don’t expect them too. But as always, the conservatives pretend to wear their halos and crosses everytime I attack something a Republican does or defend a Democrat.
Hogwash - no one is pretending to have a halo. You said something flakey about Obama and his level of awesome coolness, I suggested you subtract some cool points because he wore mom jeans and threw the opening pitch like a sissy. You got your panties in a bunch, thinking Obama’s “manhood” was under attack, and the teary-eyed tantrum ensued.
Moreover, I have expressed support for Democrats on a number of occasions, and criticized Republicans. Since I don’t take politics nearly as personally as you do, nor do I reduce politicians down to cartoonish caricatures for convenient strawman purposes, it isn’t a problem for me. I like Walt Minnick and John Tanner, and I think Joe Biden - though I disagree with him on most issues - is a good man in a town without many of them.
And, I don’t hate Obama - I don’t like irrational criticism of him, and I won’t assume he acts in bad faith as an initial matter on every policy directive. I will criticize what he proposes from a policy perspective and how he proposes it - but criticism, even harsh criticism, isn’t the same as the rank stupidity that Bush Derangement Syndrome generated.
[/quote]
You’re so full of shit. Five years here and I’ve never heard you say one nice thing about a fuckin democrat.
And I don’t expect you to- but you’re not man enough to admit it. Fair enough. I could go back five years and your post history if I cared enough and prove it with every thread.
Yes genius. I’ve stated my age on here numerous times, as has everyone else. I am far younger than you old miserable fucks.
And I was right about Bush at 16, so it says something for me I think.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I use Obama as a proxy - how many young people voted for him based purely on the appeal of an image without even a basic understanding of his brand of economics, foreign policy, or executive competence?
[/quote]
How many people voted for Bush because they thought he was a blue collar cowboy who actually worked on his own ranch? How many times did we hear, “I’d rather go to a barbecue with him?” How many times did we hear, “Gore reminds me of a cardboard cutout?”
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Where are you on Healthcare Irish?
Do you support forcing people out of their current system they are happy with into a mandated rationed care system?
When will this happen? If you have benefits, you’ll be keeping them. You just will have to have insurance.
I believe the provision is that you can keep it…for now…BUT if you switch jobs you’re screwed into it. Group medical plans are company and risk pool based.
[/quote]
So if I have one insurance plan now through a company, and I switch and work for another one that has a different insurance company, I have to use the government option instead?
I don’t think that’s correct.
I don’t necessarily believe that statistic. In NJ, if you want to be insured by yourself, it’s $480 a month for a COBRA plan. I paid it for a bit. It was insane.
Now, on top of that, the largest group that isn’t insured is, I think, my age group, that 22-30 something range. At that age, you’re likely to be living by yourself but not making much money… I saw many friends who wanted health insurance in the worst way, but either were unable to pay for private insurance or the co. they worked for didn’t offer it.
NJ has done something similar, a plan where you can stay under your parent’s insurance plan until the age of 30. Lawmakers here (GOP) gave the same objections about how much it would cost, etc. But it hasn’t really hurt the state at all. It sure as hell hasn’t affected my insurance premiums, and I can pretty much get hit by a planet and still be covered.
It’s not forcing everyone in the country into the same pool- it’s just providing for a government option for those who wouldn’t have insurance anyway. It leaves companies free from anything else… and I don’t think that anyone wants “universal” Canadian style healthcare.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
So if I have one insurance plan now through a company, and I switch and work for another one that has a different insurance company, I have to use the government option instead?
[quote]Therizza wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Government programs alone won’t get our children to the promised land. We need a new mindset, a new set of attitudes Ã?¢?? because one of the most durable and destructive legacies of discrimination is the way that we have internalized a sense of limitation; how so many in our community have come to expect so little of ourselves."
The first statement of President Obama I agree with. But talk is cheap. [/quote]
ditto…
All this guy does is talk…I for one and sick of hearing him. He could spend some time shutting the fuck up.
You’re so full of shit. Five years here and I’ve never heard you say one nice thing about a fuckin democrat.
And I don’t expect you to- but you’re not man enough to admit it. Fair enough. I could go back five years and your post history if I cared enough and prove it with every thread.[/quote]
Other than my positive comments about Joe Biden, Sam Nunn, Truman, Scoop Jackson, the Blue Dog Coalition and even FDR (which you know of, since you and I discussed him, Einstein) - you’re right, I have never said anything positive about any Democrats in five years here.
FYI, in journalism, such an overstatement that is refuted by digging out the facts usually gets a retraction printed. I’ll hold my breath.
[quote]Yes genius. I’ve stated my age on here numerous times, as has everyone else. I am far younger than you old miserable fucks.
And I was right about Bush at 16, so it says something for me I think.[/quote]
Well, I am younger than I bet you think I am, but most importantly - no you weren’t right about Bush when you were hanging N’Sync posters at 16, and you aren’t now.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
no you weren’t right about Bush when you were hanging N’Sync posters at 16, and you aren’t now.[/quote]
Irish thinks you have to be 55 to be a Republican or Conservative… and says it constantly…Old…and White. He has a problem with older dudes as well as white males who are older. Sounds a lot like Sotomayer. He is fully on the self hating “Social Justice” bandwagon, but he does not realize where that really leads. Give him some time…once he has wife and child and mortgage his views will change a lot.
But I disagree with you on one thing here TB, it was New Kids on the Block posters he was hanging.
I’ll admit to being into IRON Maiden music and Samantha Fox posters at 16.
Other than my positive comments about Joe Biden, Sam Nunn, Truman, Scoop Jackson, the Blue Dog Coalition and even FDR (which you know of, since you and I discussed him, Einstein) - you’re right, I have never said anything positive about any Democrats in five years here.
FYI, in journalism, such an overstatement that is refuted by digging out the facts usually gets a retraction printed. I’ll hold my breath.
[/quote]
I’ll give you FDR and Truman… I think that we’ve both defended the “drop the bomb” decision before. To bring them up though is like me saying how much I admire Lincoln or other Republicans of the era- I did mean current Democrats.
However, if you’ve said something nice about Biden I must have missed it. There were louder people than you here around election time.
[quote]
Yes genius. I’ve stated my age on here numerous times, as has everyone else. I am far younger than you old miserable fucks.
And I was right about Bush at 16, so it says something for me I think.
Well, I am younger than I bet you think I am, but most importantly - no you weren’t right about Bush when you were hanging N’Sync posters at 16, and you aren’t now.[/quote]
No dipshit, they were Metallica posters, and yes I was right. He did exactly what I thought he would.