Including critiquing partisan politics and then engaging in it, I see. So be it. But let no future Democrat bemoan regime change then.
EDITED. [/quote]
I’m not a Democrat and I don’t see how I’m engaging in partisan politics.
Let’s not forget that there was a military coup in Egypt and a color revolution in Ukraine under Obama. Under international law, the US is not supposed to not recognize a government that was coup’ed but we do.
Carter and ZBig were the one’s who initiated the backing of the Muhajideen in Afghanistan against the Communist government, more regime change there.
Kennedy and LBJ were attempting regime change from Vietnam, to Cuba, and into our southern hemisphere.
Bibi has one main antagonistic to worry about, the US has his and all the rest of them, including bigger fish to fry at the moment.
[/quote]
Obama is engaging in partisanship, not you specifically.
What’s more, so what if America has more problems to worry about than the Middle East?For Netanyahu, a mistake here could be the end of their safety in the region altogether. Obama does not have the same amount of chips on the table here.
I am aware that the US has engaged in regime change under the Truman doctrine for decades. Each act of regime change should be weighed on its merits. However, what is being done here is a mistake.
Obama is engaging in partisanship, not you specifically.
What’s more, so what if America has more problems to worry about than the Middle East?For Netanyahu, a mistake here could be the end of their safety in the region altogether. Obama does not have the same amount of chips on the table here.
I am aware that the US has engaged in regime change under the Truman doctrine for decades. Each act of regime change should be weighed on its merits. However, what is being done here is a mistake.
But the reason Obama and Co push negotiation is that they do not want Israel to defend themselves and have thrown money and weapons to the Muslims Brotherhood to destroy Israel, albeit more slowly than they would like.
[/quote]
This is where the insanity starts to show.
It would behoove you to google and find out US aid to Israel then go google and find out US aid to the Muslim Brotherhood.
But the reason Obama and Co push negotiation is that they do not want Israel to defend themselves and have thrown money and weapons to the Muslims Brotherhood to destroy Israel, albeit more slowly than they would like.
[/quote]
This is where the insanity starts to show.
It would behoove you to google and find out US aid to Israel then go google and find out US aid to the Muslim Brotherhood.
[/quote]
I don’t need to look it up. This is where your ignorance shows. The MB is not in power. They’re now under the thumb of the Egyptian military who consider them terrorists(they are) and have been imprisoning their leaders. But they were in power. And OBAMA did more than anyone else to bring them to power. He bypassed Congress in 2012 to send them 1.5 billion dollars. Then shortly after another half a billion. Then another. Finally the Egyptians got sick of it and 30+ million Egyptians took to the streets to protest the MB and Obama. Everyone in Egypt knew Obama was behind the MB’s rise to power.
I haven’t said anything about Obama’s motives in any of this. I’ve just described the facts. Do you dispute any of it? And let’s not forget Malik Obama who is wanted in Egypt on terrorism charges and for his association with the MB. Do you deny that?
I don’t need to look it up. This is where your ignorance shows. The MB is not in power. They’re now under the thumb of the Egyptian military who consider them terrorists(they are) and have been imprisoning their leaders. But they were in power. And OBAMA did more than anyone else to bring them to power. He bypassed Congress in 2012 to send them 1.5 billion dollars. Then shortly after another half a billion. Then another. Finally the Egyptians got sick of it and 30+ million Egyptians took to the streets to protest the MB and Obama. Everyone in Egypt knew Obama was behind the MB’s rise to power.
I haven’t said anything about Obama’s motives in any of this. I’ve just described the facts. Do you dispute any of it? And let’s not forget Malik Obama who is wanted in Egypt on terrorism charges and for his association with the MB. Do you deny that?[/quote]
I wasn’t referring to you, as you are bit more discerning than the rest of the “Obama is a Muslim” crowd, unless you have multiple online presences on here.
I agree backing them was a mistake, a mistake made by a couple of other liberal presidents, which backfired spectacularly getting us to this point. Democratic Peace Theory I’ve heard it referred to on here as, or just liberal naivety, it was a technique utilized by Blair in dealing with North Ireland successfully. It doesn’t apply to the Middle East. The rest of that is Egyptian conspiracy theory and them blaming all their problems on Obama.
Nonetheless, the sums of support that US has sent to Israel is several orders of magnitude larger than what was sent to the MB in Egypt. The former is a perennial partnership, and the later a foreign policy misstep and failed experiment, not a Muslim conspiracy to destroy Israel.
I wasn’t referring to you, as you are bit more discerning than the rest of the “Obama is a Muslim” crowd, unless you have multiple online presences on here.
I agree backing them was a mistake, a mistake made by a couple of other liberal presidents, which backfired spectacularly getting us to this point. Democratic Peace Theory I’ve heard it referred to on here as, or just liberal naivety, it was a technique utilized by Blair in dealing with North Ireland successfully. It doesn’t apply to the Middle East. The rest of that is Egyptian conspiracy theory and them blaming all their problems on Obama.
Nonetheless, the sums of support that US has sent to Israel is several orders of magnitude larger than what was sent to the MB in Egypt. The former is a perennial partnership, and the later a foreign policy misstep and failed experiment, not a Muslim conspiracy to destroy Israel. [/quote]
I wasn’t referring to you, as you are bit more discerning than the rest of the “Obama is a Muslim” crowd, unless you have multiple online presences on here.
[/quote]
No, I don’t have multiple online presences. Not sure why you would think that. And I don’t think there’s any regular posters here who think Obambams is a Muslim.
Some of it is. However, I think it’s undeniable that Obama’s lifelong anti-colonialist mindset and left-wing political ideology leads him to strongly dislike Israel and be overly sympathetic to the Palestinian “cause”. This is the real reason for his “mistakes”. And believe me, “mistakes” is being very generous here.
[quote]
Nonetheless, the sums of support that US has sent to Israel is several orders of magnitude larger than what was sent to the MB in Egypt. The former is a perennial partnership, and the later a foreign policy misstep and failed experiment, not a Muslim conspiracy to destroy Israel. [/quote]
I don’t know why you keep associating me with fringe Obama conspiracy theories. I’ve always been clear that I think he’s an atheist. However, he’s also a radical who is very much not on Israel’s side. Again, that’s being very generous.
Some of it is. However, I think it’s undeniable that Obama’s lifelong anti-colonialist mindset and left-wing political ideology leads him to strongly dislike Israel and be overly sympathetic to the Palestinian “cause”. This is the real reason for his “mistakes”. And believe me, “mistakes” is being very generous here.
Edited to fix quotes [/quote]
I just watched Susan Rice’s talk at Brookings regard the 2015 National Security Strategy. She was hit with a very tough question at the end regarding the trade-offs versus stability and respect for American values in the middle East, i.e. the trade-off between the lack of Constitutionally guaranteed human rights in totalitarian regimes and the potential instability in moving towards a Middle East more in line with American values.
Like it or not, the world order is changing and we are not in 100% control of it. We can try to influence it a certain way, but to think we can deterministically realize a certain outcome is hubris.
[quote]'nuffsaid wrote:
Seems Obama didn’t like Bibi accepting invite to speak in US.
45 community organisers funded by State Dept sent to Israel to twist election away from Bibi Netanyahu.
Listen here, from 38 minute mark: https://soundcloud.com/nationalsecurityspeaker/what-is-obama-up-to
Anyone familiar with Obama’s community organising will recognise the tactics.
Your taxes at work![/quote]
Rancorous partisan politics are endangering 10 years of delicate diplomacy. Netanyahu is attempting to tank the P5+1 negotiations. [/quote]
Why would he do that? Is he stupid?
[/quote]
I would never describe the man as stupid. In this case, blinded by parochial interests.
[quote]'nuffsaid wrote:
Seems Obama didn’t like Bibi accepting invite to speak in US.
45 community organisers funded by State Dept sent to Israel to twist election away from Bibi Netanyahu.
Listen here, from 38 minute mark: https://soundcloud.com/nationalsecurityspeaker/what-is-obama-up-to
Anyone familiar with Obama’s community organising will recognise the tactics.
Your taxes at work![/quote]
Rancorous partisan politics are endangering 10 years of delicate diplomacy. Netanyahu is attempting to tank the P5+1 negotiations. [/quote]
Why would he do that? Is he stupid?
[/quote]
I would never describe the man as stupid. In this case, blinded by parochial interests. [/quote]
If by “blinded by parochial interests” you mean concerned with the existential threat Iran poses then yes. He is not doing this for political reasons. Firstly, Netanyahu is not a right-winger. He alienated the right-wingers in his cabinet forming a coalition against them to support the prisoner exchange(1 Israeli soldier for 1000+ terrorists). He’s doing it out of genuine security concerns.
Bird hasn’t worked for Obama since 2012. To say that he is being “sent” by the President of the United States is evidentiarily baseless. Suggestive of the increasing-by-the-day ill will between the Obama-era Left and Bibi, yeah, but nothing close to what normally good posters are pushing here.
Or am I wrong? In that case, Ted Cruz sent his digital campaign strategist, Vincent Harris, to work for Likud six weeks ago and is therefore interfering in Israeli elections. Let’s see if everybody jumps on him.
Aside: Do I think Bird, who’s received SD grants to do other, previous work relating to the I-P conflict, should be working Israeli electoral politics? No. But the “omgz Obama is so out of line” thing is nonsense until it comes out that he asked Bird to go, or somehow “sent” him without, you know, employing him.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Bird hasn’t worked for Obama since 2012. To say that he is being “sent” by the President of the United States is evidentiarily baseless. Suggestive of the increasing-by-the-day ill will between the Obama-era Left and Bibi, yeah, but nothing close to what normally good posters are pushing here.
Or am I wrong? In that case, Ted Cruz sent his digital campaign strategist, Vincent Harris, to work for Likud six weeks ago and is therefore interfering in Israeli elections. Let’s see if everybody jumps on him.
Aside: Do I think Bird, who’s received SD grants to do other, previous work relating to the I-P conflict, should be working Israeli electoral politics? No. But the “omgz Obama is so out of line” thing is nonsense until it comes out that he asked Bird to go, or somehow “sent” him without, you know, employing him.[/quote]
Ok, what you have written is fair. I don’t like Obama doing this, but if other players in the US are doing the same then it would be unfair of me to jump on him for this.
I stand by what I said about his mis-assessment of best practices in the middle east. I think he is backing the wrong horse in Israel in a big way, and I don’t think SM is wrong when he says that that is heavily influenced by his ideological stance towards imperialism.
But what do I know, I’m a drunken Mick for Christ’s sakes.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Bird hasn’t worked for Obama since 2012.
[/quote]
Ah…yes, that’s because he’s Obama’s “campaign” manager and Obama hasn’t had a campaign since 2012.
The State Department is funding it as are a host of radical left-wing front groups that are part of Obama’s machine. Come on smh. You know how Obama operates. All these front groups are not just left-wing front groups; they’re not just Democrat front groups; they’re Obama’s front groups.
Yes you are. Don’t be naive. You know this is how he works. Through front groups. He’s not going to sign his name to the checks.
Let’s take a look at this group shall we? The Daily Caller points out:
"There’s little or no chance that Bird would work against Netanyahu if Obama didn?t want Netanyahu defeated in the March election.
If Bird was working against Obama’s wishes, it would threaten the future of his firm - and of his fellow employees - because Obama has such sway within the Democratic party?s internal economic marketplace for election and polling services."
Do you disagree?
[quote]
should be working Israeli electoral politics? No. But the “omgz Obama is so out of line” thing is nonsense until it comes out that he asked Bird to go, or somehow “sent” him without, you know, employing him.[/quote]
Again, don’t be naive. You know this is how politics works, especially on the left. This is Obama’s team. And with everything that’s going on now between Obama and Netanyahu it’s just coincidence that the State Department is funding Obama’s 08 and 12 campaign team?
Okay, let’s assume Obama has nothing to do with it. Under his watch the state department is funding this group One Voice. What are they doing funding a radical group like that?
RE One Voice:
"…is managed by former ambassador Marc Ginsburg, and is backed by numerous left-wing advocacy groups and the Department of State. Its advisors include the Muslim cleric who tried to build a mosque alongside the destroyed Twin Towers in New York, and a chief negotiator for the anti-Semitic, anti-U.S. autocratic Arab government surrounding Jerusalem.
OneVoice is reportedly sponsored by scores of nonprofits and received two grants in the past year from the U.S. State Department.
270 Strategies:
Besides Bird, the 270 Strategies team includes the following former Obama staffers:
Mitch Steward, a 270 Strategies founding partner who helped the Obama campaign build what the U.K. Guardian called ?a historic ground operation that will provide the model for political campaigns in America and around the world for years to come.?
Mark Beatty, a founding partner who served as deputy battleground states director for the Obama campaign. He had primary responsibility for Obama?s election plans for the battleground states.
Marlon Marshall, a founding partner at 270 Strategies who joins the team after holding several key positions in national Democratic politics, most recently as deputy national field director for the 2012 Obama campaign.
Betsy Hoover, a founding partner who served as director of digital organizing on the Obama campaign.
Meg Ansara, who served as national regional director for Obama for America where she was responsible for overseeing the 2012 programs in the Midwest and southern states.
Bridget Halligan, who served as the dngagement program manager on the digital team of the 2012 Obama campaign.
Kate Catherall, who served as Florida deputy field director for Obama?s re-election campaign.
Alex Lofton, who most recently served as the GOTV director of Cleveland, Ohio, for the 2012 Obama campaign.
Martha Patzer, the firm?s vice president who served as deputy email director at Obama for America.
Jesse Boateng, who served as the Florida voter registration director for Obama?s re-election campaign.
Ashley Bryant, who served most recently as the Ohio digital director for the 2012 Obama campaign.
Max Clermont, who formerly served as a regional field director in Florida for Obama?s re-election campaign.
Max Wood, who served as a deputy data director in Florida for the 2012 Obama campaign.
A team of 45 staffers includes 16 members who worked directly for Obama’s campaigns. Most of the former Obama staffers hold the senior posts at the firm. Others worked for the Democratic Party, the Democratic National Committee or grassroots groups involved in progressive efforts, including a group to enroll Americans in Obamacare.
And their tactics - they’ve just filed a malicious complaint to the police against Likud Party:
And funding Hamas:
“And while it is clear that the State Department has funded One Voice ((PeaceWorks Network Foundation (PWNF) is V 15 is One Voice) - and Obama has no love for Bibi, what is even more troubling is the history of this organization. A review of tax filings finds that One Voice paid $96,000 in 2011 to Howard Sumka. Media reports show that Sumka was instrumental in providing ?$1 million in American funding to a Hamas-run university in the Gaza Strip?” when he served as West Bank and Gaza Mission Director for US Aid. "
Alongside these pro-Palestinian interests are other radical left-wingers, including The Ford Foundation ($1,018,150 since 2004); Nathan Cummings Foundation ($375,000 since 2003); Skoll Foundation ($150,000 since 2011); Walter and Elise Haas Fund ($145,000 since 2007); Rockefeller Brothers Fund Inc. ($100,000 since 2012); and William & Flora Hewlett Foundation ($25,000 since 2004). These extremists have long funded dangerous anti-Israel organizations.
Even the far-left Haretz paper is reporting this as an Obama operation.
Again, don’t be naive. Obama is trying to throw the election. It couldn’t be more obvious.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Again, don’t be naive. Obama is trying to throw the election. It couldn’t be more obvious.
[/quote]
In which case Ted Cruz and a bunch of other GOP leaders – Vincent Harris is just one of several GOP political operatives who are working with Likud right now – are doing the same thing. Exactly the same thing.
I am aware of the State Department grants. Apparently none of that money has anything to do with the political consultancy we’re discussing, but, as I said, they should disqualify Bird’s organization from involving itself with Israeli electoral politics, and from what I understand they may well do so under Israeli law.
But that isn’t my point. I don’t care about whether or not Obama wants Netanyahu gone – we all know he does. I don’t care about whether or not Obama approves of Bird’s current project – we all know he does. I care about whether or not the President of the United States is himself interfering in the electoral politics of one of our two closest allies. This is the charge that’s been made up and down the present thread, and it’s literally baseless. The Daily Caller’s meaningless word-salad and sinister-sounding terms like “front group” don’t vitiate the simple process of leveling an accusation, which is that the accusation follows from evidence. If Obama is interfering in Israeli electoral politics, then you’ve got to show that Obama is interfering in Israeli electoral politics. That you haven’t done – and, if you have, then you’ve also shown that Ted Cruz is interfering in Israeli electoral politics. Though you don’t seem to be bothered by that at all.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Biden, along with Bam, will not attend Netanyahu’s address to Congress.
Why should they? Netanyahu has butchered diplomatic decorum. His address is entirely inappropriate. [/quote]
I think Obama and Biden have an opportunity to demonstrate a measure of grace by attending Netanyahu’s address. Demonstrate a little forgiveness in response to perceived offense. Lead by example, you know.
That’s what I think a gentleman would do. Unfortunately, petty children may not be able to manage getting one inch beyond themselves.
In which case Ted Cruz and a bunch of other GOP leaders – Vincent Harris is just one of several GOP political operatives who are working with Likud right now – are doing the same thing. Exactly the same thing.
[/quote]
No, it’s not the same at all. A politician who openly supports a candidate in a foreign election is not the same as Obama sending 16+ of his top campaigners to ensure one candidate does not win and using a group that receives taxpayer grants.
That was my term not The Daily Caller’s and it’s entirely appropriate. These groups exist for the purpose of furthering the agenda of Obama and the Democrats whilst maintaining plausible deniability.
[quote]
If Obama is interfering in Israeli electoral politics, then you’ve got to show that Obama is interfering in Israeli electoral politics. That you haven’t done – and, if you have, then you’ve also shown that Ted Cruz is interfering in Israeli electoral politics. Though you don’t seem to be bothered by that at all.
Edited.[/quote]
It’s not the same at all as Cruz and others have pointed out. And you don’t know if taxpayer funds were used specifically for this operation. That was one of the questions Cruz asked and it has not been answered. This story was broke by Haaretz in Israel which is a left-wing paper. It’s not a fantasy of the right. This is how the left operates and you should be aware of it by now.