Obama has Failed at Everything

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

And didn’t Assad do exactly this with chlorine?

"“Chemical Weapons” means: Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes.

“Toxic Chemical” means: Any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals. "

It doesn’t ban their possession of or peaceful use of it and it wasn’t declared as a weapon, but using it as a weapon is illegal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/23/us-syria-crisis-chlorine-idUSBREA4M08V20140523

“Chlorine is likely to be lethal than sarin but its use as a weapon is still illegal under a global chemical weapons convention that Syria signed.”[/quote]

Oh, boy.

“…except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention”

Domestic law enforcement is one of those purposes not prohibited under the Convention.

Gassing dissidents falls under the definition of “domestic law enforcement”.

Reuters reporters are not arbiters of the legality of chemicals under international law. The reporter, Dominic Evans, has twice (in this article and in the previous one you linked) called the chlorine gas attacks “illegal”, a violation of “a global chemical weapons convention”, by which I assume he means the CWC.

But again, chlorine gas is not specifically banned by the Convention, so I wonder if, like you, Dominic has not bothered to read the original text.

He also mentions that “Syria did not declare chlorine as part of its stockpile”, but of course it was under no obligation to do so.
[/quote]

It doesn’t list it specifically as a chemical weapon, but it prohibits the use of any chemical as a weapon against people.

“A high-stakes U.S.-Russian plan for destroying Syria’s chemical weapons is in jeopardy on several fronts, with the regime in Damascus facing growing allegations that it violated the agreement by attacking rebels and civilians with chlorine gas.”

“As part of the deal, Syria signed onto the Chemical Weapons Convention, which allows countries to have chlorine, but forbids using it as a weapon. So if the regime used chlorine gas in attacks since the agreement, that would be a violation.”

“Chlorine is not listed as a chemical Syria is expected to give up under the Security Council resolution. But its use as a weapon of war is prohibited under the 1925 Chemical Weapons Convention, of which Syria is a signatory.”

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/state-dep-t-suggests-chlorine-gas-attack-syria-would-violate-deal
“[The CWC] prohibits the use of any toxic chemical, including chlorine, with the intent to kill or incapacitate people,” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said at a daily briefing, noting that Syria joining the CWC was “part of what was agreed to in September.”

“According to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which oversees the CWC, â??a toxic or precursor chemical [such as chlorine or hydrogen cyanide] may be defined as a chemical weapon depending on its intended purpose.”

“Put simply, a toxic or precursor chemical is defined as a chemical weapon unless it has been developed, produced, stockpiled or used for purposes not prohibited by the Convention,” it says.

So even though chlorine was not one of the agents declared by the Assad regime for surrender and destruction, if itâ??s determined that the regime has used it as a weapon that would violate the CWC â?? and therefore indirectly also violate the deal negotiated in Geneva between Secretary of State John Kerry and his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov."

“Experts said if it is proven that Syria used chlorine as a weapon, Damascus would be in violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention which it signed last September.”

"The U.S. State Department, which is examining the allegations, said on Tuesday that if the Syrian government used chlorine with the intent to kill or harm this would violate the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC), which it joined as part of last September’s Geneva agreement to give up its chemical weapons.

“The use of any toxic chemical with the intent to cause death or harm is a clear violation of the convention,” said State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki."

“Syriaâ??s apparent use of chlorine gas as a weapon â?? not to mention targeting of civilians â?? is a plain violation of international law,” said Nadim Houry, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch.

Everybody from the State department, the Russians, the OPCW says if proven true, then it was a violation of the agreement and international law.[/quote]

Both Syrian government and oppositional forces are accused of using chemical weapons in 2013 during the Syrian civil war, though as any such use would be within Syria’s own borders, rather than in warfare between state parties to the protocol, the legal situation is less certain. - Wikipedia

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Both Syrian government and oppositional forces are accused of using chemical weapons in 2013 during the Syrian civil war, though as any such use would be within Syria’s own borders, rather than in warfare between state parties to the protocol, the legal situation is less certain. - Wikipedia[/quote]

Yes they have. I don’t know if there has been verification of chemical weapons used by the opposition, who ever they are now. The vast majority of accusations, verifications and strong suspicions fall on the side of the Assad regime.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the opposition has done it, but certainly not to the degree Assad has.
Funny thing about the chlorine gas attacks, Assad doesn’t deny they happened, he’s just claiming the opposition did it… to themselves.

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]

This guy, who used to eviscerate jihadists for a living, doesn’t seem to care that much about syrian rebels.
But maybe he has a point : do we really want Assad’s regime to lose power in Syria ?[/quote]

Yes, because they are allied with Hezbollah and Iran. They are also enemies with Israel. As asinine as it seemed, we forced Qaddafi out of power, even after he played ball with us. The Russians are the ones who wish to keep Assad in power because he’s their ally and maintains the status quo. So for once, I’m siding with the Russians on this one.

But interestingly, Assad was never doing “our” work, he was never “our” ally, much like Saddam was never our ally (he was clearly allied with the Soviet Union, and his forces took a pot shot at one of our naval vessels btw.) but because he was enemies with Iran we backed him.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Who is making excuses for Assad?

Nobody here is advocating for, or praising, or excusing murder of any kind. This should be obvious to the point of banality.

The arguments that are being made are clear and correct and have not been refuted, or even addressed.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Yes, because they are allied with Hezbollah and Iran. They are also enemies with Israel.
[/quote]

So you are in favour of toppling Assad?

So you are in favour of Assad staying in power? Which is it? You’ve just given two mutually exclusive answers in the same paragraph.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Unlike you my position on Syria has been constant. In the Baghdad falling thread you initially advocated supporting ISIS. Then a few posts later you switched positions.

My position all along has been opposition to Iran and Assad. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to engage in nonsense arguments which only serve to weaken my position.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Who is making excuses for Assad?

[/quote]

Obama threatened Syria if they used weapons of mass destruction against their own people. They did so…but that’s OK, chemical weapons should not be considered weapons of mass destruction.

Syria used chemical weapons to kill people in spite of Obama’s warning…but that’s OK, because Assad’s a lunatic and that’s what lunatics do.

In spite of Obama’s warning, people in Syria were killed by chemical weapons… that’s OK Syria gave up their chemical weapons.

Assad uses a chemical weapon again…that’s OK, it was just a crude weapon.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Yes, because they are allied with Hezbollah and Iran. They are also enemies with Israel.
[/quote]

So you are in favour of toppling Assad?

So you are in favour of Assad staying in power? Which is it? You’ve just given two mutually exclusive answers in the same paragraph.
[/quote]

You misread it. The US is in favor of toppling Assad because they are allied with Hezbollah and Iran.

I agree with the Ruskies for once because the threat of Islamic terrorism from ISIS is more of a threat to the US and the world than the Assad regime.

What’s your take?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Who is making excuses for Assad?

[/quote]

Obama threatened Syria if they used weapons of mass destruction against their own people. They did so…but that’s OK, chemical weapons should not be considered weapons of mass destruction.

Syria used chemical weapons to kill people in spite of Obama’s warning…but that’s OK, because Assad’s a lunatic and that’s what lunatics do.

In spite of Obama’s warning, people in Syria were killed by chemical weapons… that’s OK Syria gave up their chemical weapons.

Assad uses a chemical weapon again…that’s OK, it was just a crude weapon.[/quote]

What you’ve done here is called “building strawmen.”

When the actual arguments were presented to you, you said, “OK, I have no problem with your position, makes sense.” (I’m paraphrasing, so punctuation might be different, but that is exactly what you said.) Because you couldn’t refute them.

Now, a few days go by, and you’re back to take another trip round the old circle? Do you have short term memory problems or something?

You want to debate? Then debate. Go back, find the arguments which you accepted but apparently no longer do, and let us all know why you changed your mind.

Just please, please stop with all this bullshit. You want to criticize a point? Find the point–the actual point, not your boiled-down one-line strawman version of it–read it, understand it, and respond to it in such a way as to further the conversation.

You get a ring by putting your fuckin pads on and playing football, not taking a shit in the middle of the field and walking away.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Unlike you my position on Syria has been constant. In the Baghdad falling thread you initially advocated supporting ISIS. Then a few posts later you switched positions.

My position all along has been opposition to Iran and Assad. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to engage in nonsense arguments which only serve to weaken my position.
[/quote]

In the Baghdad thread when I said to initially support ISIS to attack Iran and Assad you said I was crazy. You said to back the Kurds against Isis.

You’ve got Isis attacking Assad and Iran’s proxy forces in Iraq. So who you gonna back in this? Hope they all lose?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

So let me get this straight? Assad using chlorine gas in large quantities to kill people is no big deal? It didn’t violate any agreements? It doesn’t matter? Is that what you are claiming? [/quote]

All they have done is make excuses for Assad.
[/quote]

Unlike you my position on Syria has been constant. In the Baghdad falling thread you initially advocated supporting ISIS. Then a few posts later you switched positions.

My position all along has been opposition to Iran and Assad. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to engage in nonsense arguments which only serve to weaken my position.
[/quote]

In the Baghdad thread when I said to initially support ISIS to attack Iran and Assad you said I was crazy. You said to back the Kurds against Isis.

You’ve got Isis attacking Assad and Iran’s proxy forces in Iraq. So who you gonna back in this? Hope they all lose?

[/quote]

I advocate backing the Kurds. ISIS are a major threat to our security and the security of our allies and so is Iran/Assad. Backing the Kurds will weaken both.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
You get a ring by putting your fuckin pads on and playing football, not taking a shit in the middle of the field and walking away.[/quote]

I didn’t change my mind. The points I agreed with were the Russians obviously thought Obama was going to strike or they wouldn’t have made a deal and it is a good thing there’s no more chemical weapons in Syria so they don’t fall into the hands of terrorists. The outcome was a good one.

Now take my “straw man” example and explain how exactly you disagree with any of those statements since they were all part of your argument.

I said Obama’s warning was a failure because Assad disregarded it and still used chemical weapons. You said that’s what dictators do, they never listen etc etc.

I said Obama’s warning was a failure because people still died in the attacks after the warning was issued. You said but the weapons were removed from Syria.

Assad continued to use chemical weapons against his own people, you don’t seem to think it matters because it was a crude weapon.

Obama tells Syria not to use weapons of mass destruction, biz says he does not believe chemical weapons should be classified as weapons of mass destruction.

How am I wrong on any of this? Where have I misspoken? These are the very arguments you have used all through out this thread. And now they are straw man arguments? Perhaps you’re the one who used the straw man arguments if you don’t even agree with your own points.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Perhaps you’re the one who used the straw man arguments if you don’t even agree with your own points.
[/quote]

Except that these aren’t my points. Or, the ones that are stupid aren’t. Let’s take this one:

[quote]
Assad continued to use chemical weapons against his own people, you don’t seem to think it matters because it was a crude weapon.[/quote]

I “don’t seem to think it matters” because it doesn’t have any bearing on the debate that we are having, and I have explained my reasoning on this matter more times than I care to recall at the moment. The debate that I took up when I entered this thread turned on the answer to this question: Was the Syrian chemical weapon question mishandled, or was it not? I spent a lot of time talking about cost-benefit ratios and rational decision-making given the available choices at each particular step of the way. Nobody who disagreed with me–you very much included–seemed to want to talk about why (because they couldn’t). And that’s the paradigm I’m going to continue to use until you think you have come up with a better way to evaluate the handling of a diplomatic affair than the evaluation of the individual decisions of which it was constructed. Give me a better method and I’ll apply it. Good luck.

Now, whether or not some extremely common industrial and domestic chemicals were stuffed into crude bombs and used to ineffectively kill a few people in Syria has got nothing to do with the decision-making process under consideration and does not in any possible universe constitute an American foreign policy failure. American foreign policy is weighed in large things–like 2,000,000 pounds of Sarin and Mustard gas having been shipped out of a war-torn jihadist haven.

Even more importantly, one cannot have failed–I mean logically cannot have failed–when one could not have prevented the alleged failure from having happened. You can buy chlorine gas online. You can manufacture it easily. I have its main ingredient on my skin literally right now. It isn’t banned under the CWC–for good reason. It is very common. American president’s haven’t failed by virtue of the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine and HCl into a barrel.


It’s unfortunate that I feel the need to explicitly note this, but I do: I am not defending Assad. I am not saying that chlorine gas is awesome. I am not saying that I enjoy hearing about dead kids. If anybody picked anything like that up from what I’ve just written, don’t bother responding, because I’ll huff chlorine gas before I ever again respond to such trash.

Edited

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Was the Syrian chemical weapon question mishandled, or was it not? I spent a lot of time talking about cost-benefit ratios and rational decision-making given the available choices at each particular step of the way. Nobody who disagreed with me–you very much included–seemed to want to talk about why (because they couldn’t). And that’s the paradigm I’m going to continue to use until you think you have come up with a better way to evaluate the handling of a diplomatic affair than the evaluation of the individual decisions of which it was constructed. Give me a better method and I’ll apply it. Good luck.

Now, whether or not some extremely common industrial and domestic chemicals were stuffed into crude bombs and used to ineffectively kill a few people in Syria has got nothing to do with the decision-making process under consideration and does not in any possible universe constitute an American foreign policy failure. American foreign policy is weighed in large things–like 2,000,000 pounds of Sarin and Mustard gas having been shipped out of a war-torn jihadist haven.

Even more importantly, one cannot have failed–I mean logically cannot have failed–when one could not have prevented the alleged failure from having happened. You can buy chlorine gas online. You can manufacture it easily. I have its main ingredient on my skin literally right now. It isn’t banned under the CWC–for good reason. It is very common. American president’s haven’t failed by virtue of the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel.


It’s unfortunate that I feel the need to explicitly note this, but I do: I am not defending Assad. I am not saying that chlorine gas is awesome. I am not saying that I enjoy hearing about dead kids. If anybody picked anything like that up from what I’ve just written, don’t bother responding, because I’ll huff chlorine gas before I ever again respond to such trash.

Edited[/quote]

Ok, Obama drew a red line told Syria not to use chemical weapons. Chemical weapons were used. Russia mediated, got Syria to give up 2,000,000 pounds of Sarin and Mustard gas. Great, now they are not in a terrorist hotbed warzone…a point we agree on.

But he can continue to gas his people with chlorine gas because you can buy chlorine gas online, manufacture it easily and one could not have prevented the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel? So he can use all the chemical weapons he wants because it isn’t banned under the CWC? What if he manufactures and uses 2,000,000 pounds of chlorine gas? That’d be ok then?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
But he can continue to gas his people with chlorine gas because you can buy chlorine gas online, manufacture it easily and one could not have prevented the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel? So he can use all the chemical weapons he wants because it isn’t banned under the CWC? What if he manufactures and uses 2,000,000 pounds of chlorine gas? That’d be ok then?[/quote]

Would it be better if he used pepper spray and tear gas instead? Would that make it seem more law-enforcementy and less war-crimey?

Would it be better if, instead of dropping canisters of liquified chlorine gas on civilians, his helicopters just dropped barrels of scrap metal with a TNT core? That wouldn’t violate any Chemical Weapons Conventions.

By the way, as I mentioned earlier, Jabhat al-Nusra, an al-Qaeda affiliate, took over a chemical plant near Aleppo in August of last year. This plant was the ONLY factory in Syria capable of manufacturing chlorine gas in any quantity. They also made off with 400 tons-- that’s 800,000 pounds-- of chlorine gas.

Jabhat al-Nusra, as you probably know, are now the Syrian chapter of the Caliphate Formerly Known as ISIS.

So that’s okay, right? Because they don’t like those Eye-Rainians.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Was the Syrian chemical weapon question mishandled, or was it not? I spent a lot of time talking about cost-benefit ratios and rational decision-making given the available choices at each particular step of the way. Nobody who disagreed with me–you very much included–seemed to want to talk about why (because they couldn’t). And that’s the paradigm I’m going to continue to use until you think you have come up with a better way to evaluate the handling of a diplomatic affair than the evaluation of the individual decisions of which it was constructed. Give me a better method and I’ll apply it. Good luck.

Now, whether or not some extremely common industrial and domestic chemicals were stuffed into crude bombs and used to ineffectively kill a few people in Syria has got nothing to do with the decision-making process under consideration and does not in any possible universe constitute an American foreign policy failure. American foreign policy is weighed in large things–like 2,000,000 pounds of Sarin and Mustard gas having been shipped out of a war-torn jihadist haven.

Even more importantly, one cannot have failed–I mean logically cannot have failed–when one could not have prevented the alleged failure from having happened. You can buy chlorine gas online. You can manufacture it easily. I have its main ingredient on my skin literally right now. It isn’t banned under the CWC–for good reason. It is very common. American president’s haven’t failed by virtue of the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel.


It’s unfortunate that I feel the need to explicitly note this, but I do: I am not defending Assad. I am not saying that chlorine gas is awesome. I am not saying that I enjoy hearing about dead kids. If anybody picked anything like that up from what I’ve just written, don’t bother responding, because I’ll huff chlorine gas before I ever again respond to such trash.

Edited[/quote]

Ok, Obama drew a red line told Syria not to use chemical weapons. Chemical weapons were used. Russia mediated, got Syria to give up 2,000,000 pounds of Sarin and Mustard gas. Great, now they are not in a terrorist hotbed warzone…a point we agree on.[/quote]

You missed the part about American force.

[quote]
But he can continue to gas his people with chlorine gas because you can buy chlorine gas online, manufacture it easily and one could not have prevented the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel? So he can use all the chemical weapons he wants because it isn’t banned under the CWC? What if he manufactures and uses 2,000,000 pounds of chlorine gas? That’d be ok then?[/quote]

In order: We’ll see what can be done; no; and no.

But none of that changes the post you just quoted. None of it changes this…

[quote]
One cannot have failed–I mean logically cannot have failed–when one could not have prevented the alleged failure from having happened. You can buy chlorine gas online. You can manufacture it easily. I have its main ingredient on my skin literally right now. It isn’t banned under the CWC–for good reason. It is very common. American president’s haven’t failed by virtue of the fact that somebody stuffed some fucking chlorine into a barrel.[/quote]

…And none of it is evidence that the chain of foreign diplomacy which led to the September 2013 deal was mishandled. None of it is evidence that any choice an American president has made on the question of Syrian chemical weapons was the irrational choice or represented the choice of least benefit or highest cost. Understand? The chlorine bomb allegations are murky for a number of reasons, but they should be handled insofar as they can be. Their handling has got nothing to do with the concrete victory that was won in September 2013, however, and the whole question of chlorine gas is essentially inconsequential–pennies, trifles, peas, runts–relative to the scope and sweep of the other choices, events, and concessions which figure into this debate.

I’m not an Obama fan, and I’m not interested in defending him for the defense’s sake. But God damn. The lengths some of you people are willing to go to. The pretzels you’re willing to make. Take a look at Sexmachine. He is as anti-Obama as anybody I know. And yet he isn’t willing to lobotomize himself for the sake of a single point. That you and Pat are trying to latch onto this chlorine bomb question–it’s pure…I don’t even have synonyms for “bullshit” anymore.

Did you call Bush weak on chemical weapons when chlorine bombs were used in Iraq? What about when they found their way into American lungs? Did you pretend, incorrectly, that the packing of a common industrial and domestic chemical–one that isn’t banned–into a barrel in order to ineffectively kill a few civilians or hurt a few American soldiers was some kind of foreign policy failure for George W. Bush? I didn’t think so. So do yourself a favor.

Edited

By the way, all of these ^ points, except the G.W.Bush one, have already been made in this thread. Many of them have been made more than once (and more than twice).

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So that’s okay, right? Because they don’t like those Eye-Rainians.[/quote]

No, I thought I made it clear I changed my stance on Isis when they threatened to conduct jihad against the world.

We have nothing to fear from ISIS regarding the chlorine gas because, after all, you can buy chlorine gas online, manufacture it easily and it isn’t banned under the CWC. They can have all they want I guess.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Their handling has got nothing to do with the concrete victory that was won in September 2013, however, and the whole question of chlorine gas is essentially inconsequential–pennies, trifles, peas, runts–relative to the scope and sweep of the other choices, events, and concessions which figure into this debate.

Edited[/quote]

It was a concrete victory for Assad also, because he’s still in power, unlike Qaddafi. Perhaps it would have been a sweeter victory for the US if he was ousted, but the Russians made the deal to keep the status quo and Assad still holds power and still gasses his people with a cheaper non-banned gas.

It was a partial victory for the US at best.