Obama Backs WTC Mosque

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

But don’t claim that the middle east (Iraq) is worse off for it.[/quote]

You sure about that? Have you ever been there?

[/quote]

You think they were better off under sadam?[/quote]

Depends on who you were (Sunni vs. Shiite). And I would think that if you lost loved ones or your business or whatever, while the U.S was in the process of “freeing” you, I doubt this “freedom” would seem worth it.

Of course, the US didn’t invade Iraq for any humanitarian reasons so much of this speculation seems irrelevant.[/quote]

Interesting selection of people to feel bad for. The Sunni and Shiite aren’t the ones who have lost the most because of the removal of Saddam. The group who have lost the most are the Caldeans. The Caldeans are one of the oldest Christian communities in the world. The Caldeans have been on that land for over 5000 years. They have been on that land so long that they are one of the peoples of the bible.

Under Saddam the Caldeans were protected and given equal status. Saddam foreign minister Tariq Azziz is a Caldean. Since the removal of Saddam the muslims been systematically exterminating the Caldeans.

I have a lot of Caldean friends. They are happy that Saddam is gone, even though it has gone bad for them.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]jre67t wrote:
Liftivs it is not moral to kill innocent people, we do not do it on purpose my friend.
[/quote]
How is going to war on people that have done nothing to us an accident?

You and every voter who supports military aggression is guilty of murder.[/quote]

There are more just reasons for physical force than an attack on your person. for example intervening in an attack on another innocent person. Saddam was torturing killing and gassing his own people.

They don’t have to attack us for it to be a just cause.

You’ve been pointing out over and over the equivalency of innocent life, American OR Iraqi. If we have the right justification to go to war with Saddam for killing innocent americans, then we have the right for him killing innocent Iraqis. You are the one saying over and over the value of innocent life is the same. Why are you differentiating the 2 based on nationality?

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
But I want to know if the Muslims would be offended if a bunch of Italians opened up a pork butcher shop right next door.[/quote]

A pork store, a massage parlor and I’ll raise you a good old fashioned 42nd street peep show within spitting distance of the mosque.

BG

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]biglifter wrote:
I’d like to drop an atlas stone on that fucker.
[/quote]

This supposed “mosque” is nothing more than the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA. It will be blocks away from “ground zero” next to a bunch of titty-bars in an old Burlington Coat Factory. Sheesh.

Haha. I hope “ground zero” becomes the new Mecca just to piss you morons off.

Get a life, will ya?!

OP, I am not just directing this at you but all of your simple-minded compatriots too.[/quote]

Well said for someone who did not lose a loved one on 9-11.

Way to show compassion. Nice.
[/quote]

What does a Muslim youth center have to do with 9/11? This is a few blocks away from “ground zero”. Where is the literal line drawn where it is okay for Muslims to be in NY? More than the few blocks they are already requesting? If “ground zero” is some sort of sacred shrine why are titty bars okay and not a youth center?

And also, don’t you think some Muslims also lost loved ones on 9-11? Way to show your compass…er, ummmm…I mean bias!

You religious zealots sure are a wacky bunch of mother-fuckers.[/quote]

Anyone with even a tiny bit of empathy would realize that building a Mosque only a few blocks from ground zero is in very poor taste. Furthermore, if the Muslims behind this exercise in poor judgement felt any compassion for the victims of 9-11 they wouldn’t do it. If they actually wanted to at least begin to restore good feelings toward their religion they wouldn’t do it.

And since you wanted to make this personal, just a tad about you.

Your own credibility as a poster was shot a long time ago when it was discovered (by TB I believe) that a big bad libertarian like yourself who is constantly calling for less government is actually taking a government hand-out. You are the worst kind of hypocrite, ranting on a message board near your window no doubt, while staring like a dog for that delicious morsel to be delivered to your mailbox by the US government.

You and your hero, the nut Ron Paul, have much in common. Neither of you have any credibility, but unfortunately will never shut up.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

In fairness, we’ve been building ‘ground zeros’ near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.[/quote]

this!

Gotta wonder who the real terrorists are.[/quote]

Really?

I agree with you most of the time, and you know I’m not fan of the use of force by our government, But if you can’t see the difference, you’re blind.

There is no moral equivalence to this.

Bombing people plotting ways to kill as many of us as possible is NOT the same as flying planes filled with civilians into civilian buildings.

You can disagree with what we do over there, but they are far from the same thing.[/quote]

Many, many civilians have been killed over there. This is probably supremely ironic to those Muslims who have lost loved ones (who were civilians) because of the unnecessary Iraq invasion.

It’s pretty equivalent.[/quote]

All you democrats have done since the invasion of Iraq is whine about how poor Saddam didn’t deserve to get took out and we didn’t need to go into Iraq. And you throw your whiny bullshit out there as if it’s an undeniable fact, when it isn’t.

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.

Nor do you ever give any reasonable reasons why Saddam or his sons deserved to have the kind of power the Iraqi oil fields provided. These were dangerous people who needed to be removed so the world could move forward.[/quote]

Good post, and did you notice how the left is silent while Obama raises troop levels? Their silence speaks volumes.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Wow! You are so clueless that I am going to have to explain this to you, yet you think you are smart enough to question the wisdom of my judgment. Incredible.

[/quote]

The only thing incredible is you trying to justify invading a country that did nothing to you.

You’re wisdom is regurgitated Faux news propaganda from 8 years ago. Wisdom, my ass.

And to hell with your guided munitions BS. This was from 4 years ago and the report indicates 151,000 civilians killed.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Interesting selection of people to feel bad for. [/quote]

I don’t feel bad for either of them.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.
.[/quote]

That is a lie.

He would have gone if the US had allowed him to take one billion with him.

That would have been remarkably cheap, dont you think?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Anyone with even a tiny bit of empathy would realize that building a Mosque only a few blocks from ground zero is in very poor taste. Furthermore, if the Muslims behind this exercise in poor judgement felt any compassion for the victims of 9-11 they wouldn’t do it. If they actually wanted to at least begin to restore good feelings toward their religion they wouldn’t do it.

[/quote]

Anyone with a tiny bit of empathy would have realized that torturing people in the exact same prisons Hussein tortured Iraquis before is in very poor taste. Furthermore, if the Americans behind this exercise in poor judgement felt any compassion for the victims of Saddam Hussein (who they supposedly were their to “help”) they wouldn’t do it. If they actually wanted to at least begin to restore good feelings toward America they wouldn’t have done it.

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Wow! You are so clueless that I am going to have to explain this to you, yet you think you are smart enough to question the wisdom of my judgment. Incredible.

[/quote]

The only thing incredible is you trying to justify invading a country that did nothing to you.

You’re wisdom is regurgitated Faux news propaganda from 8 years ago. Wisdom, my ass.

And to hell with your guided munitions BS. This was from 4 years ago and the report indicates 151,000 civilians killed.

[/quote]

You make snide remarks about Fox and then proceed to quote the Guardian. It would be hilarious if you weren’t so ignorant. The Guardian is just about the most biased left wing paper in Britain. I should have known you were a punk ass Guardianista it explains a lot.

That study is not an accurate count produced by actually counting bodies. The number was generated through guess work and it even says so in the article. Plus the article began with this little gem.

“The article said the survey estimated that 151,000 civilians had been killed since the invasion. That figure included combatants.”

The last sentence means that combatants who died fighting against the marines, army, air force are being counted as civilian deaths. What that means is that if a guided munition hit a building full of “combatants” killing all of them without hurting one person in the surrounding area all the dead are counted civilian deaths.

Here it says the study used the same inaccurate statistical survey technique used by the now discredited Lancet report.

“The figures come from a household survey carried out by the World Health Organisation and the Iraqi health ministry. They are substantially lower than the 601,027 death toll reported by US researchers in 2006 in the Lancet using similar study methods, but higher than the Iraq Body Count’s (IBC) register - based on press reports - of 47,668.”

Then the article gives this vast range of deaths that shows the number of deaths may not have been 151,000. They took the highest number and lowest number split the difference and reported the result as if it is fact while admitting the number could be affected by misreporting and they were trying to make allowances for that.

“The authors of the WHO/Iraqi study, published last night in the New England Journal of Medicine, say that the new number, which could be anywhere between 104,000 and 223,000 allowing for misreporting,”

Here they say that they didn’t actually visit Anbar or Baghdad to conduct their survey because of all the fighting so they just made calculations, or in other words they took a wild guess at the number of dead in the two areas with the most intense fighting.

“The survey from the Iraqi Family Health Survey Group was carried out by trained employees of the health ministry who visited 10,860 households - 10 from each of more than 1,000 clusters across the 18 provinces of Iraq. Because of the insecurity, 115 (11%) of the clusters could not be visited - mostly in Anbar and Baghdad - so calculations were made to account for the probable number of deaths in those places.”

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.
.[/quote]

That is a lie.

He would have gone if the US had allowed him to take one billion with him.

That would have been remarkably cheap, dont you think?

[/quote]

Bullshit. Saddam never offered to leave.

An offer was made to him to let him go into exile in Saudi Arabia and he refused to take the offer. Which at the end of the day was the best outcome. Because if he had been allowed to live in Saudi Arabia with a status of protected immunity, with just the money he had hidden away he would have been able to cause more trouble.

The power structure that he created needed to be completely wiped away so something new could take it’s place. If Saddam and his sons were still alive they would be a problem.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.
.[/quote]

That is a lie.

He would have gone if the US had allowed him to take one billion with him.

That would have been remarkably cheap, dont you think?

[/quote]

Bullshit. Saddam never offered to leave.

An offer was made to him to let him go into exile in Saudi Arabia and he refused to take the offer. Which at the end of the day was the best outcome. Because if he had been allowed to live in Saudi Arabia with a status of protected immunity, with just the money he had hidden away he would have been able to cause more trouble.

The power structure that he created needed to be completely wiped away so something new could take it’s place. If Saddam and his sons were still alive they would be a problem.[/quote]

[quote]Sifu wrote:

You make snide remarks about Fox and then proceed to quote the Guardian. It would be hilarious if you weren’t so ignorant. The Guardian is just about the most biased left wing paper in Britain. I should have known you were a punk ass Guardianista it explains a lot.
[/quote]

Yeah, I’m a Guardianista. Luckily, you don’t post here much so I won’t hold it against you.

Anyway, don’t like that link? There are plenty more to choose from.

Furthermore, the “combatants” are Iraqi citizens who have picked up arms to fight the occupying force. They aren’t terrorists.

edit - We could take the 30,000 total that Bush mentioned from this article (in 2006) and that still puts to bed your guided munitions nonsense. “We didn’t mean to do it”. “Accidents happen”. Iraqis don’t care if it was an accident or not.

See this is the problem, yes the US throws our weight around, and rightfully so Dustin and Liftivc. Why you may ask? Well lets see if we dont someone else is going to, think China who is always threating Tawain, Tibet and has NK as a pure puppet. Or Russia who started a war with Georgia, setting up bases around its Western border. When they do it is it ok? No but they do it in a more brutal way, unlike the US where we go in and try to do the right thing.

So yes we have to flex our muscles my friends. If we do not we have to major Communist Nations, China and Russia, willing and ready to step in. The only reason they have not is due to our superior military. Read the Communist Manifesto, read Lenin’s and Mao’s biographies. Read what there ideology is and what it wants to accomplish.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.
.[/quote]

That is a lie.

He would have gone if the US had allowed him to take one billion with him.

That would have been remarkably cheap, dont you think?

[/quote]

Bullshit. Saddam never offered to leave.

An offer was made to him to let him go into exile in Saudi Arabia and he refused to take the offer. Which at the end of the day was the best outcome. Because if he had been allowed to live in Saudi Arabia with a status of protected immunity, with just the money he had hidden away he would have been able to cause more trouble.

The power structure that he created needed to be completely wiped away so something new could take it’s place. If Saddam and his sons were still alive they would be a problem.[/quote]

It appears like your reading comprehension of English isn’t very good because you missed these important qualifying statements.

“The White House refused to comment on the report last night.”

“But, if verified”

and this one.

“A spokesman for Mr Aznar’s foundation had no comment on its authenticity.”

The article says the report is unverified yet you are trying to play it off as if it is fact.

Furthermore the offer was not just a billion dollars. You left out a significant bit of information.

“It seems he’s indicated he would be prepared to go into exile if he’s allowed to take $1billion and all the information he wants about weapons of mass destruction.”

Now what the hell would he need WMD information for if he was going into exile? You are off in fantasy land. How could you think that was reasonable offer? And why would Saddam settle for such a paltry amount when he supposedly had Billions (with an S) hidden away in foreign bank accounts?

The invasion was done to take care of a problem that would not have been solved by letting Saddam go into exile with billions of dollars and WMD. You have really become a kook with this one.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.
.[/quote]

That is a lie.

He would have gone if the US had allowed him to take one billion with him.

That would have been remarkably cheap, dont you think?

[/quote]

Actually, I read that we offered him even more than that, but he refused. This is not difficult to believe given the character that he was.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Anyone with even a tiny bit of empathy would realize that building a Mosque only a few blocks from ground zero is in very poor taste. Furthermore, if the Muslims behind this exercise in poor judgement felt any compassion for the victims of 9-11 they wouldn’t do it. If they actually wanted to at least begin to restore good feelings toward their religion they wouldn’t do it.

[/quote]

Anyone with a tiny bit of empathy would have realized that torturing people in the exact same prisons Hussein tortured Iraquis before is in very poor taste. Furthermore, if the Americans behind this exercise in poor judgement felt any compassion for the victims of Saddam Hussein (who they supposedly were their to “help”) they wouldn’t do it. If they actually wanted to at least begin to restore good feelings toward America they wouldn’t have done it.
[/quote]

Even if this were true to a large extent, that still does not take away the fact that building a mosque at, or even near ground zero does not make Americans love you. Latest poll figures show that 71% are agaisnt this.

-For you warmongers-

It’s extremely easy to say Saddam needed to be removed when you aren’t tasked with the job.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
All you democrats have done since the invasion of Iraq is whine about how poor Saddam didn’t deserve to get took out and we didn’t need to go into Iraq. And you throw your whiny bullshit out there as if it’s an undeniable fact, when it isn’t.

What is an undeniable fact is Saddam wasn’t coming out any other way. And despite all the whining you never come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how his removal was to be accomplished without the use of force.

Nor do you ever give any reasonable reasons why Saddam or his sons deserved to have the kind of power the Iraqi oil fields provided. These were dangerous people who needed to be removed so the world could move forward.[/quote]

I haven’t gotten one valid reason for invading another soverign state. There’s plenty of dictators around the world that we don’t take out, and at least you acknowledged that the oil fields is the big, and only, reason.

You might say we’re whining (which I’m not), but at least I’m not kidding myself by being a chickenhawk on a message board calling for others to go to war because I want oil fields, as most of the people on here are.

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

You make snide remarks about Fox and then proceed to quote the Guardian. It would be hilarious if you weren’t so ignorant. The Guardian is just about the most biased left wing paper in Britain. I should have known you were a punk ass Guardianista it explains a lot.
[/quote]

Yeah, I’m a Guardianista. Luckily, you don’t post here much so I won’t hold it against you.

Anyway, don’t like that link? There are plenty more to choose from.

Furthermore, the “combatants” are Iraqi citizens who have picked up arms to fight the occupying force. They aren’t terrorists.

edit - We could take the 30,000 total that Bush mentioned from this article (in 2006) and that still puts to bed your guided munitions nonsense. “We didn’t mean to do it”. “Accidents happen”. Iraqis don’t care if it was an accident or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4525412.stm[/quote]

No dumbass being a citizen does not make you a civilian. When a civilian takes up arms to fight they become a combatant.

To call them a civilian suggests that they are unarmed and not fighting anyone. What you are trying to do is give the impression that the US military is just going around indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians when in fact many of the people you are calling civilians have weapons and are trying to kill.

Even if the American forces are occupying that does not make it reasonable to attack them. Reasonable people would accept they are there for a legitimate reason and get on with rebuilding the country so they can go home.