NYC to Ban Infant Formula

Off Topic
81

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
The government also encourages-but-doesn’t-force you to eat 400lbs of grains everyday. And you all will be the first to bitch about that.

SMH…

The government shouldn’t have a god damn thing in the world to say about it, period. They have zero, zilch, nada business involved in that aspect of a normal person’s life. (With the possible selection of the FDA testing the formula to make sure it isn’t ground up car bumpers.)[/quote]

The former is clearly due to the subsidization of a crop. I would say this warrants bitching and renders it a poor comparison.[/quote]

Poor comparison? How about they are the same fucking thing, and one aligns with what you want to believe so you are okay with it.[/quote]

The nutritional value of breast milk is grounded in sound science. The same cannot be said for FDA’s nutritional recommendations, which are reliably contentious (though I am not a member of the grains-are-the-devil club), and derived from subsidies. I’m not sure how you can’t draw a distinction between the two.

I agree, which is why I would be upset if people’s choices were actually being revoked. I just don’t see that occurring.

Sorry, but I don’t get into those kinds of personal details on message boards.

82

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Poor comparison? How about they are the same fucking thing, and one aligns with what you want to believe so you are okay with it.[/quote]

The nutritional value of breast milk is grounded in sound science. The same cannot be said for FDA’s nutritional recommendations, which are reliably contentious (though I am not a member of the grains-are-the-devil club), and derived from subsidies. I’m not sure how you can’t draw a distinction between the two.[/quote]

Sorry, you are missing the point.

In both cases (or at least in what I see the hospital case as) it is the government dictating your choices, whether it be through suggestion or force, it is still an assult to your free will and government sticking their every growing nose in individual liberty.

It doesn’t matter if one is “good” or “bad”. To have any, you must allow all. That is why the KKK can still march assuming they fill out the proper paper work. In order for free speech and assembly to work, you have to allow even people with a bad message to speak.

Same in this case. Just because breast milk is great an all, doesn’t mean the government can even suggest you do differently when the alternative isn’t harmful to the child.

[quote]

I agree, which is why I would be upset if people’s choices were actually being revoked. I just don’t see that occurring.[/quote]

Don’t worry, some of us are paying attention and concerned for everyone’s freedom, not just want I feel is cool to be free and not free about.

That means the answer is zero. As I assumed by your responce.

But until you answer that I can’t comment on your other post…

83

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

:wink:

84

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[
In both cases (or at least in what I see the hospital case as) it is the government dictating your choices, whether it be through suggestion or force, it is still an assult to your free will and government sticking their every growing nose in individual liberty.

[/quote]

Why is it OK to suggest to NOT do something if it’s harmful, but not ok to to suggest that one decision may be MORE healthy. I think we all would agree that putting Coke in a baby bottle would not be as healthy as formula. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a suggestion not to do that.

No one is saying that formula is unhealthy. Just that breast milk has unique benefits beyond formula. It’s also less expensive. Why then is it not OK to bring this up when discussing something that may be less healthy than formula would be OK?

Would you be OK with NYC telling mother’s “Hey, it’s OK to use formula. Breastfeeding hurts sometimes, you might get raw, you may not produce enough and your baby will cry and you can’t do anything about it.” You should consider that instead of trying to breastfeed."

Please, don’t take the last statement as me being insensitive or inflammatory. I’ve witnessed those things to a certain degree personally. I just want to understand exactly where you draw the line for “they shouldn’t even be suggesting this”.

85

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.

86

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

87

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Sorry, you are missing the point.

In both cases (or at least in what I see the hospital case as) it is the government dictating your choices, whether it be through suggestion or force, it is still an assult to your free will and government sticking their every growing nose in individual liberty.[/quote]

You are misusing the word “dictate” to suit your hyper-libertarian hysterics.

That is a seemingly random straw man. I have never argued for the repression of free speech, whether or not I agree with it.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this point. Again, if the science is sound then I don’t take issue with a recommendation being provided. Where was your contrived outrage when hospitals were implicitly suggesting the use of formula by distributing free samples?

Nobody’s freedom is being taken away. Anyone who wants formula still has access to it.

[quote]That means the answer is zero. As I assumed by your responce.

But until you answer that I can’t comment on your other post…[/quote]

Presume what you’d like. It’s not an issue on which I am willing to compromise.

88

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too.

89

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too. [/quote]

We Rock

90

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too. [/quote]

We Rock[/quote]

Awwwwwwww yeah!

91

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too. [/quote]

We Rock[/quote]

Awwwwwwww yeah![/quote]

92

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too. [/quote]

We Rock[/quote]

Awwwwwwww yeah![/quote]

93

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Yes. Even SUGGESTING that one form of nutrition is more beneficial than another is an outrageous and despicable tactic.

For those who are somehow seeing a hidden agenda, what exactly is it? Are you against even the MENTION of benefits of one form of nutrition over another? Should women who, for whatever reason, haven’t been informed about the benefits of breastfeeding NOT be told what those benefits are because SOME people fell they are being told what to do?

If someone has already made the choice, one way or another, and is approached by a staffer about breastfeeding, then she certainly can tell that person, I know the differences, I’ve made up my mind, thank you.

Edit: Again, this isn’t even the biggest part of the whole initiative. Most of it is the discontinuation of free samples, and better tracking of hospital supplies. Is that an issue for you too?

94

[quote]cueball wrote:

Why is it OK to suggest to NOT do something if it’s harmful, but not ok to to suggest that one decision may be MORE healthy. I think we all would agree that putting Coke in a baby bottle would not be as healthy as formula. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a suggestion not to do that.[/quote]

Not sure I stated it was Okay. But whatever. There is a difference between suggesting you choose between two perfectly fine alternatives and two alternatives that has one be harmful.

[quote]No one is saying that formula is unhealthy. Just that breast milk has unique benefits beyond formula. It’s also less expensive. Why then is it not OK to bring this up when discussing something that may be less healthy than formula would be OK?

Would you be OK with NYC telling mother’s “Hey, it’s OK to use formula. Breastfeeding hurts sometimes, you might get raw, you may not produce enough and your baby will cry and you can’t do anything about it.” You should consider that instead of trying to breastfeed."[/quote]

I have no problem with the plethora of private groups and foundations that push breastfeeding on woman. (Outside the fact that some people are insane about it, but that is a whole different thread.) I have a problem with the government backing the stance.

So no, NYC saying anything is a problem. The hospital staff, under their accord, fine.

Medical professionals having a stance and making a statement is one thing, the government telling those doctors what to say is another. They could be saying the same thing, that isn’t what is important, at least to me.

[quote]Please, don’t take the last statement as me being insensitive or inflammatory.
[/quote]

Not at all man, we’re having a conversation, which hopefully leads to me learning something.

95

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Why is it OK to suggest to NOT do something if it’s harmful, but not ok to to suggest that one decision may be MORE healthy. I think we all would agree that putting Coke in a baby bottle would not be as healthy as formula. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a suggestion not to do that.[/quote]

Not sure I stated it was Okay. But whatever. There is a difference between suggesting you choose between two perfectly fine alternatives and two alternatives that has one be harmful. [/quote]

Yes. But the two are not identical and there are health benefits from breast milk not found with formula. Should those not be talked about?

[quote]

[quote]No one is saying that formula is unhealthy. Just that breast milk has unique benefits beyond formula. It’s also less expensive. Why then is it not OK to bring this up when discussing something that may be less healthy than formula would be OK?

Would you be OK with NYC telling mother’s “Hey, it’s OK to use formula. Breastfeeding hurts sometimes, you might get raw, you may not produce enough and your baby will cry and you can’t do anything about it.” You should consider that instead of trying to breastfeed."[/quote]

I have no problem with the plethora of private groups and foundations that push breastfeeding on woman. (Outside the fact that some people are insane about it, but that is a whole different thread.) I have a problem with the government backing the stance.

So no, NYC saying anything is a problem. The hospital staff, under their accord, fine.

Medical professionals having a stance and making a statement is one thing, the government telling those doctors what to say is another. They could be saying the same thing, that isn’t what is important, at least to me.[/quote]

I haven’t seen anywhere that NYC has mandated what hospitals and doctors should say. The doctors have already been saying it. If there is any hidden agenda it would be to try and save treating children for various things on the tax payer’s dime, when those issues could POSSIBLY been averted by breastfeeding. Just a guess.

Not at all man, we’re having a conversation, which hopefully leads to me learning something.[/quote]

96

[quote]bcingu wrote:

You are misusing the word “dictate” to suit your hyper-libertarian hysterics.[/quote]

You are trying to pick apart minor details of my post to try and prove your point. Also, nice ad hominien. Can’t debate my point, so paint my position with the “ugly brush”… Great work.

[quote]
That is a seemingly random straw man. I have never argued for the repression of free speech, whether or not I agree with it.[/quote]

Strawman would require me to build a false alternative and bash that. I haven’t. I simply drew a comparison to free speech and freedom of choice. Because you seem okay with cheery picking what choices we have as individuals, while I am pointing out, like with free speech, you must allow all choices.

Again, back to my question of how many times you’ve been through this.

We never had anyone push either choice on us. It was beyond easy to get information on both choices, and the support given by hospitals on breastfeeding is bar none, fantastic.

They don’t want to you to formula feed, they don’t. We said we were breastfeeding and they never brought up formula again. Not once. No fee samples. Neither of my buddies had this mysterious evil corporate push that you and JFit are making up either.

[quote]

Nobody’s freedom is being taken away. Anyone who wants formula still has access to it.[/quote]

smh…

It’s like you refuse to see it.

[quote]
It’s not an issue on which I am willing to compromise.[/quote]

And I know why…

97

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Yes. Even SUGGESTING that one form of nutrition is more beneficial than another is an outrageous and despicable tactic.

For those who are somehow seeing a hidden agenda, what exactly is it? Are you against even the MENTION of benefits of one form of nutrition over another? Should women who, for whatever reason, haven’t been informed about the benefits of breastfeeding NOT be told what those benefits are because SOME people fell they are being told what to do?

If someone has already made the choice, one way or another, and is approached by a staffer about breastfeeding, then she certainly can tell that person, I know the differences, I’ve made up my mind, thank you.

Edit: Again, this isn’t even the biggest part of the whole initiative. Most of it is the discontinuation of free samples, and better tracking of hospital supplies. Is that an issue for you too?[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with mentioning choices, however, there is something wrong with making one of those choices not as accessible when they are both reasonable. If a new mother is having both choices unbiasedly explained to her, there is no problem with that. When she is being talked down to because of her choice - not right. Besides, it’s not just a matter of mentioning that she wants to formula feed. There needs to be a doctors okay and it appears that approval or a prescription of some kind is needed in order for that mother to use said formula. How is that equal access?

If you don’t see an agenda, I really don’t know what else to tell you.

Tracking hospital supplies I don’t have any problem with. Every company that I can think of performs some sort of inventory. The problem that I have with some of the stats is that the Mayor is obviously making a profit as a result. Not sure if you missed that part about him being a multi-billionaire as a result of statistical data. That is the part of the stats that I have issue with.

People do things to be nice and compassionate - companies, corporations and government do not.

98

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Congrats.

October babies for the win.

<-------October baby.

[/quote]

Thanks! They are pretty awesome.

<-------October baby too. [/quote]

We Rock[/quote]

Awwwwwwww yeah![/quote]
[/quote]

Heh, cute kid.

99

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

So, if I’m paying out of pocket for everything that I receive then I’m sure not listening to a contrived speech designed to make me feel like shit. No member of government or special interest group is paying my bill so they don’t get to have a say. Period, end of story. [/quote]

Tisk, Tisk, silly mother, you should do what the collective wants you too.

It is just an informed choice…

;)[/quote]

By the collective, do you mean special interest groups that disguise themselves as do-gooders? My informed choice is that I will never be part of the collective. haha

Seriously, I’m due in October and if anyone tried this tactic with me it would not go over well in the slightest. Thankfully I’m not in NYC but I’m sure that things like this will cross jurisdictions if people allow it.[/quote]

Yes. Even SUGGESTING that one form of nutrition is more beneficial than another is an outrageous and despicable tactic.

For those who are somehow seeing a hidden agenda, what exactly is it? Are you against even the MENTION of benefits of one form of nutrition over another? Should women who, for whatever reason, haven’t been informed about the benefits of breastfeeding NOT be told what those benefits are because SOME people fell they are being told what to do?

If someone has already made the choice, one way or another, and is approached by a staffer about breastfeeding, then she certainly can tell that person, I know the differences, I’ve made up my mind, thank you.

Edit: Again, this isn’t even the biggest part of the whole initiative. Most of it is the discontinuation of free samples, and better tracking of hospital supplies. Is that an issue for you too?[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with mentioning choices, however, there is something wrong with making one of those choices not as accessible when they are both reasonable. If a new mother is having both choices unbiasedly explained to her, there is no problem with that. When she is being talked down to because of her choice - not right. Besides, it’s not just a matter of mentioning that she wants to formula feed. There needs to be a doctors okay and it appears that approval or a prescription of some kind is needed in order for that mother to use said formula. How is that equal access?[/quote]

I think you need to re-read the press release outlining what the initiative entails. There is nothing telling doctors to talk down to mothers. A doctor does NOT have to OK a mother’s decision to breastfeed. The only thing a doctor needs to OK is NURSES supplementing a breastfed baby with formula. The NURSES are the ones who have to sign out formula. No prescription needed for formula. You can bring your own in if you want. It’s an over-the-counter product.

There’s a lot of assumption here that you’ll have to show proof of before I discuss it. Any way you can show Bloomberg is personally making money on this?

Edit: fixed quotes

100

Cueball, I think you need re-read The Constitution. You’re making my head hurt. No worries though, I will keep speaking up for everyone’s rights so that you can sleep in your warm blanket of freedom.