Nov. 28th GOP Debate

[quote]Magnate wrote:
tedro wrote:
Magnate wrote:
JeffR wrote:
cnn + clinton = more planted questions.

JeffR

Good, there should be more planted questions from the opposition party. If someone can’t handle a question raised by someone on the other side, might as well expose that in primary season so we don’t have to wait until the General Election debates to see that come to light.

That’s why it is so funny. The republicans handled it without any problems and now it just makes Hillary Clinton look even worse because she has to have her very own pre-rehearsed planted questions. Otherwise somebody may ask her some crazy question about I don’t know, drivers licenses or something.

They handled the question fine, which is why the outrage from some pundits amuses me. Get the fuck over it, heaven forbid you be asked a question that came from someone with a different voter’s registration card than your base!!! OH NO! THE SKY IS FALLING!!

Its fucking stupid, handle it well or fuck it up, either way the primary voters at least see where you stand on that specific question. To draw from Keith Olbermann’s show tonight regarding this story, “If you can’t handle the democrats, how are you going to handle Al Qaeda?”.

Good point, if being asked a question by someone from the other camp is this outrageous, how will you handle having to work with the other camp once elected? I fully expect a potential president to have no issue with responding to a dissenter of their policy, why this was so outrageous is beyond me.[/quote]

Hey, joker.

Remember when the Republicans stacked the questions?

I don’t either.

As a matter of fact, dems duck anything remotely hostile.

JeffR

Here’s an idea for a debate:

Have all the Dem candidates on one side, and all the GOP candidates on the other.

Then have the GOP candidates ask specific questions of the Dems, and vice versa - and then, like the CNN guy did, have the questioner express his view on whether his question was actually addressed in the answer.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Paul: I have never watched a full debate with him in it, and I cam away unimpressed, especially given the hype. His voice squeaky and his manner twitchy, which gives him no command. I also thought his response to “conspiracy theories” was hilarious - he thinks there are plans that are secret and no one will talk about, but they aren’t conspiracies. An unserious candidate, and always has been. [/quote]

His answer to the conspiracy question was absolutely dead-on. It was a superb answer to a difficult question - one that had the potential to do significant damage if he fumbled it before a national audience.

What he said, in effect, was that he’s not fighting against any particular “conspiracy theory” so much as an IDEOLOGY (his exact phrase). “Conspiracy theory” has all sorts of negative implications. There is simply no way to publicly endorse the notion of such a theory and remain a viable candidate.

Paul understood this, and thus had to phrase his answer so as to be consistent with his previous statements, yet not turn off potential voters. He did just that, providing a reasoned, well-thought out response.

[quote]tedro wrote:
I thought McCain looked very good and made Paul look like an idiot. He was just stating things as they are.[/quote]

What he was stating was nothing more than the classic, oft-repeated, neocon refrain: “If we had only stopped Hitler in Munich…”

The only possible way to think that McCain made Paul look stupid with that line is if you subscribe to the neocon version of history. Ron Paul, as a paleocon, obviously holds a different notion of what triggered WWII. I hope you were aware of this, and didn’t think that Ron Paul was just pulling things out of his ass, but at any rate, you know now.

Paul could have replied to McCain by stating that the abandonment of neutrality in WWI directly paved the way for WWII. However, I’m glad he chose not to say that, because most Americans are not ready to hear that degree of truth about their country.

The paleocon version of history, endorsed by Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, and Lew Rockwell et al., holds that interventionism creates more problems than it solves. It creates monsters and “blowback” which come back to haunt us later.

America abandoned it’s neutrality in WWI and pursued a very belligerent policy towards Imperial Germany (this was BEFORE the US had officially entered the war). After the war, the Allies tried to place the blame entirely on Germany, who had acted quite honorably, by all accounts (even by the testimony of individual British soldiers on the front lines).

Germany had followed accepted conventions of war which the US and Britain had ignored. Lusitania was a MILITARY SHIP, carrying arms and munitions, with specific orders to ram or depth charge any German U-Boat whose captain had the courtesy to surface his vessel. The Allied Powers got exactly what they wanted…and the America people were duped into a war that they had opposed.

In WWII, the same scenario unfolded. Despite a thriving non-interventionist movement in the US, the American administration once again pursed a belligerent diplomatic policy towards Japan, despite it’s “neutral” status. In the months leading up to Pearl Harbor, FDR did absolutely everything he could to goad the Japanese into “striking the first blow”.

And they did. The rest was history. The scenario unfolded exactly the way it was intended to by the people in charge.

The US defeated Nazism…so that Communism could ravage Eastern Europe and Asia for half a century. Today, even mainstream historians acknowledge that Stalin’s Russia would have acted as a buffer against Hitler’s expansion in Europe.

Hitler proved unable to take the Isle of Britain, and certainly never would have reached the US (it has been recognized by world statesmen since the time of the American Revolution that the United States could not and would not be territorially conquered by any European power).

After WWII, we hunted communism around the globe for decades, deposing democratically-elected leaders in favor of puppet dictators and funding violent insurgency movements.

Today, we find ourselves overextended, underappreciated, and going completely broke, desperately trying to slay demons of our own creation.

Welcome to Ron Paul’s version of history.

Still feel like listening to Old Man McVain?

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
We all know Paul would never get the nod because he is too honest and don’t play the pandering game.[/quote]

Ron Paul will get the nod because his supporters are busting their asses, day and night, to make it happen.

They will be at every stage of the primaries. They will have seats as delegates in the final committee that determines the nominee. All of this is being worked on as we speak.

The Republican establishment, as much as it dislikes Paul, cannot control who turns up and votes at to the primaries. On most election years, the turnout is pretty low. This year will be different. Once Ron Paul wins a few primaries - and he will - his momentum will be unstoppable, and if the GOP doesn’t want to hand him the nomination, we are going to be seeing another national crisis, the likes of Florida 2000. If it comes to such a scenario, with the GOP outright refusing to give it’s nomination to it’s most popular candidate, then Ron Paul would be in a position to launch the first successful 3rd-party run ever.

If everything goes the way it should, they will nominate Paul - not because they want to - but because they’ll have no other choice. That’s the goal. It’s a chess game and we aim to outmaneuver the neocons.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

tedro wrote:
McCain didn’t look like a wounded animal, I thought he simply looked like he was fed up with Paul’s naiveness.

And I am pretty sure it is not his honesty and lack of games that is going to prevent him from getting the nomination.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
McCain is doing horribly. Paul is stealing all of his support. His point about spending time with the “troops” over Thanksgiving was pointless and cheap rhetoric.

The real naivety in this whole race is coming from everyone who thinks more government is the solution rather than the problem.

Paul was absolutely right in his assessment about our foreign policy. It is a policy of destruction and will ruin us. History shows this to be the case for every Empire. The UK realized this a long time ago. We cannot spread civilization with destruction and death. Only hatred is spread this way.

“Power to the peaceful.”

McCain WAS doing horribly. He has improved a lot ( OxBlog )- and it’s Thompson and McCain who are cannibalizing each other greatly. Most of the Paul supporters think (with some justification I might add) that McCain has an authoritarian streak (but in fairness it’s not as bad as Guiliani’s). I’d agree - if McCain were better on the First Amendment and at brooking dissent I’d be much happier with him.
[/quote]

You know that McCain is bad on immigration. REAL bad. The right hates him for it and he will never recover from the Amnesty Bill. Polls are showing that immigration is now the #1 issue in Iowa, even ahead of foreign policy. Paul is the strongest candidate on this issue who is actually viable (I’m excluding Tancredo and Hunter).

Giuliani made a fool of himself - the crowd wanted him to shutup. And when he talks, “New York, New York, New York”. You think people in Iowa, South Carolina, Texas, Ohio, etc want to hear that? He’s done.

Mitt looks good - until he waffles. And he does it on key issues, which doesn’t help his already-significant credibility problem with the conservative base.

I’m guessing the establishment is going to place it’s bets on Grandpa Fred, with Mike “Gomer Pyle” Huckabee as a last-ditch stand-in against RP.

Since Thompson doesn’t seem to be trying particularly hard to win the nomination, this can only be good for Paul…

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

You know that McCain is bad on immigration. REAL bad. The right hates him for it and he will never recover from the Amnesty Bill. Polls are showing that immigration is now the #1 issue in Iowa, even ahead of foreign policy. Paul is the strongest candidate on this issue who is actually viable (I’m excluding Tancredo and Hunter).

Giuliani made a fool of himself - the crowd wanted him to shutup. And when he talks, “New York, New York, New York”. You think people in Iowa, South Carolina, Texas, Ohio, etc want to hear that? He’s done.

Mitt looks good - until he waffles. And he does it on key issues, which doesn’t help his already-significant credibility problem with the conservative base.

I’m guessing the establishment is going to place it’s bets on Grandpa Fred, with Mike “Gomer Pyle” Huckabee as a last-ditch stand-in against RP.

Since Thompson doesn’t seem to be trying particularly hard to win the nomination, this can only be good for Paul…[/quote]

Yeah, I know he’s bad on immigration - and on the First Amendment, and on a few other issues. But right now he looks like the best of the bunch, all things considered.

If I wanted to pull for the most likely winner, I’d just pull for Guiliani. With the condensed primary schedule, NH, IA and SC aren’t going to matter as much, and Guiliani is crushing everyone else in large-population Blue and Purple states that will follow closely on the heels of the first few. See:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_republican_primary-260.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ca/california_republican_primary-258.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_republican_primary-239.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/nj/new_jersey_republican_primary-245.html

[quote]Magnate wrote:
They handled the question fine, which is why the outrage from some pundits amuses me. Get the fuck over it, heaven forbid you be asked a question that came from someone with a different voter’s registration card than your base!!! OH NO! THE SKY IS FALLING!!

Its fucking stupid, handle it well or fuck it up, either way the primary voters at least see where you stand on that specific question. To draw from Keith Olbermann’s show tonight regarding this story, “If you can’t handle the democrats, how are you going to handle Al Qaeda?”.

[/quote]

Yes, but imagine if fox had hosted this debate and the same thing happened to democrats. The cries of how corrupt that station is and how it’s a right wing spokespiece would be deafening. The purpose of a primary debate is for REPUBLICANS to ask their own questions so they can figure out who they want to vote for.

It isn’t for confirmed DEMOCRATS to try to make these guys look foolish early, or for me to miss out on questions because that asshat general decides to take 10 minutes to lecture everyone. I think you should have openly gay people in the military, but that doesn’t alleviate the fact that that general is a shithead.

I also like how he decides to word the question, “Why DON’T any of you believe in allowing openly gay members to serve.”(paraphrasing) instead of “Do any of you believe openly gays members can serve?” Because I know for a fact Paul believes they should, but he and the others were accused of homophobia and could not defend themselves.

That’s due in part because no one in America has the balls to criticize a military member. This country gives the military far too much slack. CNN took advantage of that.

At worst it’s democrats setting up republicans. At best it is democrats taking questions away from republicans. Neither situation is acceptable.

mike

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Mike,

That was a low blow comparing me to moRons.

Beyond the pale, pal.

Now, you mentioned “domestic fallacies.”

First of all, I am the Republican who said during the clinton years, “I don’t care about his personal life.”

I still don’t care about someone’s personal life, UNLESS they broke laws.

Period.

What makes it worse, is these “fallacies” you seem to keep bringing up, just aren’t that important.

Dressing in drag, marrying 74 times, lisping, etc.

What do we have this week? Allegations about using taxpayer money to have affairs.[/quote]

I don’t care about dressing in drag or how many times he got married, ect. That said, I think you lose the right to make fun of Paul’s whiny old man voice when Rudy sounds like Mr. Slave on South Park. No, his domestic fallacies I refer to are his lack of respect for the 2nd Amendment.

Then, he also cares just as little for the first. Or perhaps that his solution to crime is more cops. Whether the question was a plant or not, the solution to ending black on black crime certainly isn’t throwing more of them in prison.

Rudy is a law and order guy; not a guy who cares about freedom. All the shit we hate about the Patriot Act gives this guy wood. I would rather have more Bush than more Rudy. I could at least sit down and have a beer with him, as supposed to Rudy who I just want to punch in the face.

The guy is giving us the promises of Mussolini and that is why you’re right…he’ll win. Americans don’t care about the Constitution, they want the trains to run on time. Rudy will deliver.

The man fought against the line-item veto. He believes in an expansion of Federal power when the fedgov is already far too powerful. His only redeaming factors are the same as Bush. He would likely put in conservative judges and he’s pro-Iraq. America can have that guy AND a guy that cares about freedom with Thompson. It drives me nuts when Bush gets called a Nazi. But Rudy, well, he’s no Nazi, but a Mussolini I can see. [quote]

First of all, NO dEMOCRAT CAN EVER complain about this. See bill clinton using troopers, secret service agents, etc… for his affairs.
[/quote]

I don’t care about the Dems. They are light years behind the Reps ideologically, and that doesn’t say much. Then, as far as corruption goes: There are many corrupt Reps. But theirs is the corruption of human weakness. They go down for money or things of that nature. Dems are institutionally corrupt. Everything they stand for is based on coercion and deceit. [quote]

I care about what he is going to do to lixy’s friends. I care about border security. I care about crime.
[/quote]

I need to get you two drunk in the same room together. Maybe make a reality TV show out of it. I care about border security too. Not as much for terrorists, but for illegal immigrants. But if that were my main concern I’d vote Hunter. There are others that can do that job. You care about crime.

Okay, thats valid. But when we already live in a police state, do you really think Rudy’s idea of more police and more people in jail is a better idea than maybe at least trying something new, like small scale drug legalization? Or legalizing prostitution? We know that one works. There isn’t a huge prostitution, crime or drug problem in Nevada outside of LV.

I’m concerned about crime too. That (among other reasons) is why my children will never go to public school. That is why I carry my Beretta on my hip or my XD inside my pants. What active measures have you taken to deliver yourself from crime? You’re a republican so you’ve got a strong idealogical foundation. You know you should be providing for yourself (including protection) before asking the .gov to take care of you.[quote]

Why not Thompson? He seems like a good guy. Quick witted. About 10 years too late. He doesn’t think he’s going to win. I doubt he’d be aggressive enough against the clinton machine.
[/quote]

But if you put two wolves in the ring to fight you end up with one wolf as your leader. [quote]

McCain? I could never warm up to him. I’ve tried for 8 years. I don’t trust his credentials. He’s too much of a Senator. Too cozy with the far left for my tastes.

[/quote]

Agreed. I keep having to tell myself I don’t like him…because I do. He’ll never get my vote on 1A and 2A credentials.

mike

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
This quote pretty well sums up what I think of Paul too:

http://instapundit.com/archives2/012290.php

Though I feel the need to add the gold standard to my specific areas if disagreement. Hopefully more libertarian principles will catch on in the GOP.[/quote]

They all stumble - every one of them. Even Romney, the slickest of the bunch, tripped up several times last night. And Huckabee, who had a great night otherwise, got tagged by the underdog, Tancredo, on a seemingly innocuous question about the Space Program. That just goes to show you how difficult it is to pull off a flawless performance.

Ron Paul comes across better in certain formats than others. I don’t think his missteps are going to hurt him very much. Again, it happens to all of them. People are looking for substance this election. Ron’s got that.

Edit - one thing to remember about Republicans where speaking ability is concerned: They elected GWB, twice

Another CNN plant surfaces. The guy who asked Ron Paul about running as an independent was a Richardson supporter who participated in the Democratic debate on CNN. He wants Ron to run 3rd party so that the Repubs will lose the election, lol.

This is getting hilarious

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1932155/posts

1.Concerned Undecided Gay Military Retiree Brig. Gen. Keith H. Kerr = Hillary/Kerry supporter and anti-“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” activist Keith H. Kerr

2.Concerned Undecided Mom LeeAnn Anderson = Activist for the John Edwards-endorsing United Steelworkers union LeeAnn Anderson

3.Concerned Undecided Log Cabin Republican supporter David Cercone = Obama supporter David Cercone

4.Concerned Young Undecided Person “Journey” = John Edwards supporter “Journey”

Ahhh, silly liberals…

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Hey, joker.

Remember when the Republicans stacked the questions?

I don’t either.

As a matter of fact, dems duck anything remotely hostile.

JeffR

[/quote]

Seems like it’s about time for Republicans to start.

I know there’s plenty of questions I would love to see asked of Clinton (among others, but I would like to see her cut to shreds sometime soon most of all), and I personally don’t care whose mouth they come from, a registered Republican, Independent, Whig, Green Party, it doesn’t matter to me as long as the questions get asked.

Isn’t the purpose of the youtube questions so that people not in the audience can ask a question, to open the floor to the public? It isn’t like only Democrats watch the dem debates, or only Republicans watch their respective debates, so why should it be an expectation that ONLY a member of that party asks the questions - especially when it is a youtube debate.

Hell, this seems like the perfect opportunity for the Republican candidates to attack the democrat platform and the democrat candidates early on. I really don’t see the problem with being asked a question by someone who is supporting a rival party or its candidates. I’d like to see this more often actually, from both Republicans and Democrats.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

His answer to the conspiracy question was absolutely dead-on. It was a superb answer to a difficult question - one that had the potential to do significant damage if he fumbled it before a national audience. [/quote]

His answer to the question did nothing to score him respect with normal folks that wield votes.

Let me put it in terms you understand better - Ron Paul is .9 of a viable candidate.

His attempt to do that fell short, of course, to any unbiased observer - but more importantly to your point, you’re right: he can’t publicly endorse his wacky, clownish theories, so he has to try and disguise them. Problem is, no reasonable observer is falling for it.

So, in sum, Paul actually does buy into the conspiracy theories, but wants to persuade the public he doesn’t for electoral reasons. Wow - Paul is a worse candidate than I thought.

But he has the self-proclaimed “racist-fascist” vote locked up, aye Al-old-boy?

From Opinion Journal’s Daily Diary:

[i] Last week, CNN’s Anderson Cooper quipped in an interview with Townhall.com that “campaign operatives are people too” and that CNN wasn’t worried if political partisans posed questions at the upcoming GOP debate he was moderating. “We don’t investigate the background of people asking questions (by submitting video clips). It’s not our job,” is how he put it.

But now CNN's logo has egg splattered all over it, as it scrambles to explain how a co-chair of Hillary Clinton's veterans' committee was allowed to ask a video question on gays in the military at Wednesday's debate and was also flown by the network from California to the debate site in Florida so he could repeat his question to the candidates in person. 

CNN claims it verified retired Brig. Gen. Ketih Kerr’s military status and checked his campaign contribution records, contradicting Mr. Cooper’s blasé attitudes. Still, they somehow missed his obvious connection to the Hillary campaign which any Google search would have turned up. CNN later airbrushed Mr. Kerr’s question out of its rebroadcast of the debate, indicating that it apparently doesn’t think “campaign operatives” are legitimate questioners at the network’s debates.

Now it appears that an amazing number of partisan figures posed many of the 30 questions at the GOP debate all the while pretending to be CNN's advertised "undecided voters." Yasmin from Huntsville, Alabama turns out to be a former intern with the Council on American Islamic Relations, a group highly critical of Republicans. 

Blogger Michelle Malkin has identified other plants, including declared Obama supporter David Cercone, who asked a question about the pro-gay Log Cabin Republicans. A questioner who asked a hostile question about the pro-life views of GOP candidates turned out to be a diehard John Edwards supporter (and a slobbering online fan of Mr. Cooper). Yet another “plant” was LeeAnn Anderson, an activist with a union that has endorsed Mr. Edwards.

It seems more "plants" are being uprooted with each passing day. Almost a third of the questioners seem to have some ties to Democratic causes or candidates. Another questioner worked with Democratic Senator Dick Durbin's staff. A former intern with Democratic Rep. Jane Harman asked a question about farm subsidies. 

A questioner who purported to be a Ron Paul supporter turns out to be a Bill Richardson volunteer. David McMillan, a TV writer from Los Angeles, turns out to have several paens to John Edwards on his YouTube page and has attended Barack Obama fundraisers.

Given CNN's professed goal to have "ordinary Americans" ask questions at their GOP debate, how likely is that it was purely by accident that so many of the videos CNN selected for use were not just from partisans, but people actively hostile to the GOP's messages and candidates? [/i]

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
From Opinion Journal’s Daily Diary:

[i] Last week, CNN’s Anderson Cooper quipped in an interview with Townhall.com that “campaign operatives are people too” and that CNN wasn’t worried if political partisans posed questions at the upcoming GOP debate he was moderating. “We don’t investigate the background of people asking questions (by submitting video clips). It’s not our job,” is how he put it.

But now CNN's logo has egg splattered all over it, as it scrambles to explain how a co-chair of Hillary Clinton's veterans' committee was allowed to ask a video question on gays in the military at Wednesday�??s debate and was also flown by the network from California to the debate site in Florida so he could repeat his question to the candidates in person. 

CNN claims it verified retired Brig. Gen. Ketih Kerr’s military status and checked his campaign contribution records, contradicting Mr. Cooper’s blasé attitudes. Still, they somehow missed his obvious connection to the Hillary campaign which any Google search would have turned up.

CNN later airbrushed Mr. Kerr�??s question out of its rebroadcast of the debate, indicating that it apparently doesn�??t think “campaign operatives” are legitimate questioners at the network’s debates.

Now it appears that an amazing number of partisan figures posed many of the 30 questions at the GOP debate all the while pretending to be CNN's advertised "undecided voters." Yasmin from Huntsville, Alabama turns out to be a former intern with the Council on American Islamic Relations, a group highly critical of Republicans. 

Blogger Michelle Malkin has identified other plants, including declared Obama supporter David Cercone, who asked a question about the pro-gay Log Cabin Republicans.

A questioner who asked a hostile question about the pro-life views of GOP candidates turned out to be a diehard John Edwards supporter (and a slobbering online fan of Mr. Cooper). Yet another “plant” was LeeAnn Anderson, an activist with a union that has endorsed Mr. Edwards.

It seems more "plants" are being uprooted with each passing day. Almost a third of the questioners seem to have some ties to Democratic causes or candidates. Another questioner worked with Democratic Senator Dick Durbin's staff. A former intern with Democratic Rep. Jane Harman asked a question about farm subsidies. 

A questioner who purported to be a Ron Paul supporter turns out to be a Bill Richardson volunteer. David McMillan, a TV writer from Los Angeles, turns out to have several paens to John Edwards on his YouTube page and has attended Barack Obama fundraisers.

Given CNN's professed goal to have "ordinary Americans" ask questions at their GOP debate, how likely is that it was purely by accident that so many of the videos CNN selected for use were not just from partisans, but people actively hostile to the GOP's messages and candidates? [/i][/quote]

Ok, when I first heard about Gen. Kerr debacle, I kind of laughed it off as a really stupid oversight on CNN’s part. In fact, a couple of us at the job poked fun at CNN for getting duped by this man. But, now? That’s an awful lot of oversights being pointed out here.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Ok, when I first heard about the Gen. Kerr debacle, I laughed it off as a stupid oversight on CNN’s part. In fact, a couple of us at work thought it was funny CNN was duped by him. But, now? That’s an awful lot of oversights being pointed out here.[/quote]

Did they think this wouldn’t come out? Was everyone that submitted a question a Democratic operative?

This is very strange.

Well, CNN didn’t help the perception Americans have of the press.

[i]Study: More Than 60% Don’t Trust Campaign Coverage

By Joe Strupp

Published: November 28, 2007 2:10 PM ET

NEW YORK Nearly two-thirds of Americans do not trust press coverage of the 2008 presidential campaign, according to a new Harvard University survey, which also revealed four out of five people believe coverage focuses too much on the trivial – and more than 60% believe coverage is politically biased…

When asked if election coverage was politically biased, 40% believed it was too liberal; 21% too conservative; and 30% found it neutral. Nine percent of those responding were not sure.[/i]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003678478

[quote]Sloth wrote:
When asked if election coverage was politically biased, 40% believed it was too liberal; 21% too conservative; and 30% found it neutral. Nine percent of those responding were not sure.[/i] [/quote]

I was expecting to read that 30% found it “too neutral”. People just want to have something to complain about.

Some good “horse-race” style coverage from Robert A. George:

http://raggedthots.blogspot.com/2007/11/be-like-mike.html