I know the post and I wrote on it.
And I’ve been his patient as well for a brief time.
His point in any case was to manage estradiol in a different way, not an AI. He wasn’t against natural anti-aromatase like zinc for example.
In any case, his E2 was 40 with a total T of 6000, not really what dbossa is saying.
Do the math and calculate the ratio.
For the rest, well, systemlord said the rest.
This E2>100 will pass eventually.
How come you were a patient for only a brief time? Was the care not what you expect? From reading all his stuff in the forum, he seems very knowledgeable and that he knows what he’s doing.
@systemlord… fame? We have barely 6000 subscribers. This is a hobby of mine. I’m making $300+k a year with my business currently and ZERO from this stuff. I could walk away from this TRT nonsense today and it wouldn’t change my life one iota. It’s a hobby and I enjoy helping guys. I remember the situation that I was in when I started TRT, how I borderline almost lost my wife over it, and I would never wish that on my worst enemy. I do not earn a penny from YouTube (the little money that is made pays for the Zoom platform and the gear we bought to make the videos). I do the Facebook group for free. Private messages for free. Time spent in here for free. What do I POSSIBLY have to gain by dishing out incorrect information? Please enlighten me?
In regards to guys taking an AI and feeling better, how many times have I explained why? How many posts? Do I really need to explain this again? There are simple reasons why men believe they need an AI and I have gone into them at such depth that I don’t know how else I can explain it.
@appassionato I need to drive my kids to school now and will reply when I get back
Unfortunately no, it didn’t work for me.
But I did feel he is seriously willing to help his patient getting better and he has lot of empathy for them.
@dbossa I saw your video where you talk about that “viking” YouTube channel and, while agreeing on some things with you, that’s an exercise that won’t lead anywhere.
If you want to demonstrate that what he’s saying is false, you actually have to back it up with evidences, otherwise it’s just a sterile exercise.
The “I’m right, you are wrong exercise” doesn’t add anything to the discussion.
And I believe you are trying to help, like KSman was trying, but then pride kick in and people start defending their opinion regardless of what common sense and studies are suggesting.
50 posts in… this is going to be a good one 
Empirically dismissed… if you are referring to anecdotally dismissed, which is all you have, then this is not evidence.
I’ve gone into great depth as to why men believe they need an AI when they simply do not. I’ve done a ton of videos on the subject to explain and have posted at length in this forum as well as in our FB group.
You are making a claim that E2 needs to be managed. I reject your claim because there is ZERO evidence in the literature that suggests this. Anecdotally, I’m dealing with hundreds of guys who are doing proper protocols and do not require an AI. Anecdotally, I know several with E2 over 100 and do not require an AI which contradicts your claim.
I have gone into great length about the studies you mention in regards to mortality with low or high E2. These are observational studies (I even did a video SPECIFICALLY on this subject).
Homework for you to back up your stance on this subject:
Provide any medical literature that demonstrates E2 being blocked in any study regarding TRT.
Provide an interventional study where either testosterone or estrogen was raised and it caused harm. Where they assessed the men first, gave them testosterone or estrogen, assessed them afterwards, and that it was shown to cause harm. You won’t be able to find one. Why? Because in every single study where they raised testosterone or estrogen, the men improved.
Find me ANY man that has optimized T levels and doing daily administration of TRT who has any of the issues you speak of.
What you consider supraphysiological was normal just a decade ago. How come the men with normal levels of testosterone back then weren’t dying? Why aren’t teenagers dropping dead with their naturally high levels of T?
I am all for opinion. I am NOT for someone insisting on dishing out false information that could potentially harm someone’s health. I will not tolerate that for one second. Tell me why that should not be the case.
The entire position the Viking guy took is absolutely and demonstrably false yet he refused a debate. His comments under his video is that he will use anecdotal evidence over clinical evidence in the literature 100% of the time. This is nonsense. He should not be allowed to have a clinic. Demonstrate why this would be false.
You stated “no one here is a doctor”. Please visit the YT channel and see how many doctors are saying precisely what I am saying above. Is it because they aren’t members of T-Nation? That makes what they are saying irrelevant? Please explain.
I mean… some of them ARE members here and are saying the same thing.
(Or at least one of them is anyways)
Dr Mark Gordon, who I have interviewed (look him up… he’s been on Joe Rogan’s podcast 4 times) doesn’t believe in blocking estrogen. Never has. If you think you know more than that guy, I wish you luck in your endeavors lol
Anecdotally dismissed not being an evidence, well, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not evidence. How you feel is still a big part of the whole TRT thing.
You keep talking about AIs, while I keep saying AIs should not be used, but E2 managed through other means.
About your guys feeling well on E2>100. Did you ever try a cycle? Ask these guys what it means being on a total T of 3000 and an E2 of 180-200. They will tell you they feel amazing.
Would you, in your consciousness, being comfortable saying to anyone to stay on these levels for 10 years?
You keep banging on the material you produces and how many times you said about it. Can you please be coincise and produce these evidences on a sticky post here on the forum? I promise I’ll go through it.
Regarding the homework:
1- Blocking E2 and managing E2 are two different thing. Never mentioned the first one.
2- Do you have any long term study of people walking for 10 years with an E2 of 100 and not presenting any complication or problem due to it? I’m not aware of any.
3- Me and some other on other forums. I’ve been all the way to 1800 total T and E2 at 103. No AIs for more than 6 months. SHBG in the 20-30. Different injections frequencies tried, all the way to daily.
4- Are you telling me that a decade ago healthy men were having a Total T>1500? Or the huge lie that men in the XIX century were walking with a total T of 2000?
If so, we can cut this conversation now.
5- That could apply to your statements as well.
6- Nothing to say here.
7- I heard that from other doctors as well, Nicols and Rouzier just to name few.
I wouldn’t even let them treat my cat.
I was addressing you and whoever in forums decide who should talk or not. You’re not a doctor, exactly the same as Systemlord.
Hence your opinions are on the very same level.
The questions in my first post are still unanswered.
Anecdotal evidence, in the medical world, is not evidence.
All of your questions have been answered over and over and over again. Go through the videos and my posts. It’s all there.
When you can, watch this:
Please demonstrate anything in the literature that suggests E2 has to be either blocked or managed. Nobody I work with is doing either and they are all doing fine. How is this possible?
Long term studies? In over EIGHTY YEARS of research of testosterone and estrogen there is not a SINGLE study that shows harm at any dose. If you think this is incorrect, find me an interventional study that confirms this to be false.
You and some other forums means nothing to me. This isn’t evidence. I go with what the medical literature states as well as what doctors are are reporting in their practices and what they are reporting to the medical boards.
In 2006 high end of normal was 1596. Google it. Just for fun, google “Beach photos 1950” How many people are you seeing in these photos plagued with obesity, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes? Not too many. Why do you think that is? Was TRT ever required back then? Nope. Why do you think that is?
It does not apply to my statements. My statements are not an opinion. There is no literature that suggests that E2 needs to be blocked or managed in men. This is a fact. The literature confirms it. The physicians we deal with confirm it with patients in their practice. It’s a fact. It isn’t an opinion.
I need to be a doctor to repeat things that doctors are telling me? Huh?
@appassionato is Italian, is it not? I’m Italian. If you’re Italian, with our hard heads, we are going to be here for a LONG time LMAO!
You didn’t reply to my questions though.
I’ve asked you A and you replied B.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, but pictures at the beach from the 50s are. Makes perfect sense.
Also, you would probably take profit reading about Pasteur’s case and his achievement with anecdotal evidences, against the whole medical profession. You will be amazed.
I’ve asked you for a summary of your finding to make it easier for everyone to read, but you keep saying it’s all out there. I’ve seen a only one random video of yours and I did not see any evidence. If you want to prove your position, you will need to do the effort I’m afraid.
About Rouzier, I know his opinions already and they are absolutely reckless in my opinion.
There’s also a discussion between Dr. Saya and Dr. Nicols on excelmale in which these topics have been discussed, even if just superficially.
Once again, I’ll try:
1- You’re the one here accusing someone to spread bro science. So it’s the accuse that needs to prove with evidences beyond any reasonable doubts that someone is guilty.
In this case you have to prove what Systemlord said is false, that no one will ever experience those symptoms with an elevated E2. Prove me he is guilty, that is how the law system still works.
2- You ignored my request once again. I’ve asked for a study that monitored people on TRT with an elevated E2 (>100) for 10 years and didn’t find any correlated medical issue with that. You’re talking about short term symptoms.
3- I know we don’t mean anything to you, you’re just adamant on your position and trying to build up a YouTube channel.
If you’re talking about doctors though, you have to take in account the whole spectrum, including the ones that don’t agree with you.
Dr. Saya and Kominiarek just to name 2.
4- Looking for the evidence of that 2006 range. I couldn’t find anything. And yet, remember that people do lab test at through, which means their peak numbers are higher, while the natural morning reading of a healthy guy should be consistent between days.
Also, most of the people who posts here are well above that numbers.
Regarding the beach in the 50s, I’ve replied partially above. To add to that, you’re Italian so you should know what was the stigma of people going at the beach at that time. These people were the most liberal and most likely to take care of their body and not being ashamed to show it off, while the most conservative weren’t really on the same track and were avoiding to show it off due to religious and moral reasons.
You should also demonstrate that an E2 of 100 has ever been observed in an healthy men. There are no ranges that ever validated that, while we know that women run on about 300/350 maximum when menstruating.
Would you ever advise any woman to have a T level even the half of 1500/1600?
5- That explains pretty well your attitude.
6- No, you just need to fly down and understand that you haven’t been entitled by some doctors to run an E2 crusade.
Also what doctors said isn’t the Bible, the medical field did a U turn several times in history.
My health has been destroyed by cocky doctors that felt like God and by playing with hormones in my early 20s, thinking that feeling well for the first period was the only factor to consider.
I don’t believe you understand this basic concept. People are making claims that E2 needs to be blocked or managed. I REJECT the claim because there is no evidence to do so. There is no evidence in the medical literature. There is no evidence in patients that the doctors I work with deal with. When TRT is done correctly there is no reason to do this. People are stating there IS. I am asking for the evidence, to which I have been provided with NONE. How do you want me to prove the lack of evidence for anything? If you say that pixies exist, and I say there is no evidence to believe such a thing, and you ask ME to prove it, how am I supposed to prove something that doesn’t exist? YOU are making the claim that it needs to be blocked/managed to which there is no evidence. If you CAN provide me with relevant evidence, we can have a discussion. Until that time, it is moot point.
There are no studies on men with E2 over 100 that are healthy on TRT. There ARE, however, COUNTLESS studies on women who benefit with estrogen levels. Are their brains, cardiovascular systems, skeleton etc. much different from ours? No. It is the doctors that have extensive research with women who are able to demonstrate the correlation regarding men’s health.
I’m trying to help people. The YouTube channel is a hobby. If the YouTube channel was of huge interest I’d invest tens of thousands of dollars for marketing, graphic artists for more professional content and thumbnails, a YouTube SEO expert and the like. I’ve done none of this. The content is posted there for whoever wants to watch it. Period.
I’m trying to find the paper. It was 1592 ng/dL, not 1596 (typo). My labs from 5 years ago show high end of normal at 1200. Latest labs I’m getting from people are showing high end in the 700’s. I just wonder what high end was in the 1950’s without the EDCs, hormones in our water supply, processed foods, etc. etc. ? Why wasn’t TRT required back then? Can you answer that?
Can ANYONE provide ANY evidence in medical literature or studies that demonstrate a need to block or manage E2?? I’ve asked this question at least 1000 times in this forum to which it remains unanswered. A study where they raised testosterone and estrogen in men and the outcome was bad. Anyone??
Can ANYONE tell me why it is that when men use consistent daily dosing and optimize T levels they never need to block/manage E2? Anyone??
If nobody is able to answer these basic questions then I don’t know what else to say.
If you’re going to refer to studies where testosterone was low and estrogen was high and see cardiovascular events after administration of testosterone, then please realize that low T and high E2 are indicators for obesity, cardiovascular disease and diabetes. It’s not the testosterone killing them. It’s the sudden increase of physical activity, due to the increased androgens on TRT, that their bodies simply aren’t prepared for.
Show me the study. Show me your evidence. Show me ONE man on daily administration with optimal T levels who needs an AI.
All of this nonsense is due to bad TRT protocols. Period.
Once again, never said you should block E2. And there won’t be studies telling you need an AIs, because this is beyond the purpose of the study itself.
I would never advise anyone to take a synthetic drug for the rest of their life. I would accept AIs in people just for a brief time, for example obese people that need that extra help. But never forever.
What I’m trying to say is that E2 goes high and you get symptoms when your T dose is too high.
We know that E2 follow T. How many people reported to feel their best right before their next injection and bi-weekly protocol?
What that suggest?
But no, people keep being adamant on the more T, the better.
All the hormones need to be in a range, while T should go as high as possible. So they end up injecting more and more, ending up with symptoms and abnormal levels.
That’s all my saying: less testosterone, different protocols and different esters can make you feel way better, lowering aromatization without the need of any other drug.
There will never be a study with a high T and high E2 in a normal guy who is not on TRT.
It’s just impossible.
So everyone who is claiming that is natural to have those levels is just reckless.
And I don’t even know how you can compare men to women. It’s like apples and oranges.
Would you ever advise your wife to be even at the half of your T levels?
This is absolute nonsense.
This is why we are different, even hormones wise.
I agree 100% with you. T level in me aren’t what they used to be and there’s an agenda behind that.
But the line between juicing and restoring healthy levels of T is getting blurrier and blurrier these days.
As you said, all this nonsense is due to bad TRT protocols.
In every study that they gave testosterone, the patient improved. They didn’t block estrogen. It wasn’t just because it was out of the scope of the study. If the patient improved it was because an AI was not required therefore there was no point mentioning it. It demonstrates the lack of a need to block/manage E2. I’m sure you can agree with this.
Obese people are the ones that shouldn’t be blocking E2 EVER. Why? Estrogen helps in reducing visceral fat. That’s precisely what an obese person would need so why block it? Raise testosterone instead and suddenly they feel better. When raising testosterone their estrogen will raise further. Now they have even HIGHER levels of estrogen before but they feel better. Why? Their symptoms had nothing to do with high E2. Their symptoms had everything to do with low testosterone.
All hormones need to be in range. Therefore you can’t have total T over 700 because that’s the new high normal What happens in a few years when high normal is in the 600’s? Will you continue to drop your dose? If my testosterone falls below 1100 all my symptoms return. Is there any evidence that 1100 will cause me harm? No. There are tons of people with natural levels of 1100 and higher. Are they causing themselves harm? No. Will I lower my dose because of the lowering ranges taken from a population of sick people? No.
I never said the more T the better. I said you want the MINIMUM REQUIRED DOSE that is required for symptom resolution, whatever that amount is. Exactly the same way that a diabetes patient will determine ideal doses for insulin.
As long as you continue to chase a number and worry about E2 you will never get this figured out. Daily dosing keeps levels stable and eliminates virtually all TRT related side effects. Raise dose slowly over time until symptoms resolve. That’s it. It’s been done tens of thousands of times with patients at this point. It’s common knowledge for them. It just isn’t for you for some strange reason. If free T has surpassed something up there like 50 ng/dL and you still have no relief of symptoms, then guess what? Testosterone is not your issue.
You guys are great at repeating the same shit over and over and over and over and over. You should consider careers in politics.
It is the same shit over and over and over. Totally agree.
I ask a question to demonstrate my point. The question is unanswered and deflected. I ask the same question again which remains unanswered and deflected. If anyone could answer the question I’d be happy to move onto something else. Meanwhile… back at the ranch…
Both of you are deflecting and asking to prove something that you know neither of you has proof for, so in circles we go.
How do you want me to prove the lack of evidence that E2 needs to be blocked/managed? If someone provided literature that contradicts this, I’m wrong. If they can’t provide the evidence, I’m right. Seems simple enough?
When all of the physicians I deal with tell me that their patients have improved significantly since stopping AIs, with tens of thousands of patients, what am I supposed to say? They’re wrong?
In every case of a man I’ve dealt with who was on an AI, I had him make a few changes and he was able to stop the AI. I’ve got hundreds probably approaching 1000 soon.
Again, find me one guy doing daily dosing with optimized free T who need an AI. All I hear is crickets…
Read the whole thread not the first few sentences.