[quote]malonetd wrote:
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Here I completely agree with you. His testimony was very weak. It’s too bad, too, because this is where he was convicted in the court of public opinion.
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It may have been weak but at least he didn’t lie his ass off like the rest of them. I have more respect for him because he didn’t deny it.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
What about old-timers that used sandpaper/file boards/thumbtacks to doctor the ball (Gaylord Perry, and others)
What about old-timers that used amphetamines?[/quote]
You’re arguing that because some putative cheaters were let in we should let all in?
If you can’t catch all the cheaters then don’t bother trying to catch any?
That’s crap logic.
It wasn’t a non-admission, it was an admission. He didn’t have the guts/class/whatever to tell the truth.
At least he didn’t lie or pretend to not speak english like sosa did. That does earn him something. I think he regrets what he did, and that also counts for something.
“If”?!?!
I think it is the classic case of “it’s not the crime, it’s the coverup”.
I agree that McGwire (and Sosa) did a lot to revive baseball, but McGwire is now permanently tainted with the entire steroid scandal. If the scandal had not gone down so darkly and dishonestly, who know, maybe the voters would be less cynical toward him.
I never felt like he should make the Hall…cause all he did was hit for power…not great defensively, not a great base runner…ect…ect…but…after reading this post…I’ve changed my mind…the home run race, with him and Sosa…SAVED baseball…that race may have been the single most important thing in baseball in the last 30 yrs or so…fans hated the game, the strike had done major damage…and the home run race saved all that…should they keep players out for steroid use…I say NO…lets face it…most high level athletes use, and have used performance enahancers for years, and always will…
I say let them…I’d rather watch a game with amazing players…then one with guys not much better than me.
as for Pete Rose…i say it’s time to let hime in…I say he’s served his time… lets all remember they let Ty Cobb in…whats worse…murder, steroids or gambling???
When did the Baseball Writers become the “Moral” dictators?
What are the criteria for a baseball player for the HOF?
If players in the HOF suggest that they took performance enhancing supplements, are they kicked out?
In McGwire’s case, he was sent to congress and all signs point to use of steroid use. How about players that weren’t sent and suspected? What about those potential HOF’s? Do the voters guess?
For a baseball player, between the lines and the numbers produced should dictate what it is for a HOF’er. Everything else is speculation.
What a joke. I am not surprised that he didn’t get voted in, but there is no doubt he belongs there.
The amount of home runs he hit during the time he played is amazing.
It’s not like he blew up overnight, he was always a pretty big guy and got even bigger over time.
Ya, he broke the laws and was using, but so were a majority of other players at that time, plenty of whom that are either in the hall or will get in. I hope he gets in one day.
Monopoly
[quote]iksrtfo28 wrote:
I never felt like he should make the Hall…cause all he did was hit for power…not great defensively, not a great base runner…ect…ect…but…after reading this post…I’ve changed my mind…the home run race, with him and Sosa…SAVED baseball…that race may have been the single most important thing in baseball in the last 30 yrs or so…fans hated the game, the strike had done major damage…and the home run race saved all that…should they keep players out for steroid use…I say NO…lets face it…most high level athletes use, and have used performance enahancers for years, and always will…
I say let them…I’d rather watch a game with amazing players…then one with guys not much better than me.
as for Pete Rose…i say it’s time to let hime in…I say he’s served his "time… lets all remember they let Ty Cobb in…whats worse…murder, steroids or gambling???[/quote]
OK, where in the world do you get your facts from?
“most high level athletes use, and have used performance enahancers for years, and always will”
Really? Based on what logic are you saying that? MOST baseball players use? MOST basketball players use? MOST football players use? That’s just a baseless assertion.
“I’d rather watch a game with amazing players…then one with guys not much better than me.”
So if guys don’t use, they are probably no better than you are at sports? Umm… what???
I agree that McGwire and Sosa did a lot to help baseball back after the strike, but I think the entire steroids specter that now hangs over the game may end up doing damage to it that brings fan back to that strike era level.
[quote]Nick Danger wrote:
slimjim wrote:
What about old-timers that used sandpaper/file boards/thumbtacks to doctor the ball (Gaylord Perry, and others)
What about old-timers that used amphetamines?
You’re arguing that because some putative cheaters were let in we should let all in?
If you can’t catch all the cheaters then don’t bother trying to catch any?
That’s crap logic.
And how the hell is some one’s non-admission in a congressional hearing supposed to condemn him?
It wasn’t a non-admission, it was an admission. He didn’t have the guts/class/whatever to tell the truth.
At least he didn’t lie or pretend to not speak english like sosa did. That does earn him something. I think he regrets what he did, and that also counts for something.
If there is a cloud of suspicion over mcgwire…
“If”?!?!
[/quote]
Crap logic? I was merely offering a counterpoint to your statement about honoring the integrity of our grandfather’s game, this honor and integrity of your grandfather’s time is really a mystic ideal that did not truely exist.
Furthermore, I’m arguing that because we really have no idea who used steroids and who didn’t during this period that it is impossible to exclude one and allow the rest.
if you don’t think Hi level athletes use performance enhancers…you must be on something…if noone used…they wouldn’t have to test them all the time…and it wouldn’t be such a big deal…and just so your clear…steroids are not the only P.E’s on the market…even too much caffeine is banned, as is most cough syrups.
My sources tell me McGwire was on MAG-10 and Androsol.
500 homers has always been the measuring stick for HOF status, as is 3000 hits, .300 lifetime BA etc etc etc.
McGwire belongs there based solely on his power numbers…definitely not the 100 hits a season he averaged, or his piss poor .263 average. He belongs, but he is not a first ballot guy like the other 2 who were in this years class with him. Media BS is hurting him.
And, he most certainly did not see a dramatic jump in power numbers a-la barry bonds. The man has been consisitent since his rookie season.
His best years began in 95…if you go by HR/AB ratios. But his hit to HR ratio has been consistent throughout for the most part. He was never a good contact hitter, but when he got it, see ya. A guy like that will get better at recognizing pitches in his zone as he ages and has more MLB experience. The juice helped no doubt, but there are other factors in play.
I actually bumped into him more than once in 1998. As someone experienced with AAS (and high level ball), i would hazard a guess that he was definitely on more than andro. JMHO.
McGwire should be in. He hit those home runs period. The sports writers are hypocrites and cowards. According to Canseco, and he has no reason to lie, he’s probably the only honest one out there, there were tons using in the 90’s im major league baseball. Does nobody who played in the 90’s get in?
its kind of weird that Roger Clemens missed exactly 50 games this year isn’t it? The man is in his 40’s and is still throwin some of his best stuff in his career.