No Child support !! If You Have a Penis

Off Topic
121

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]dianab wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Who hid the decent women with serious life goals?
[/quote]

Yes.
What I don’t understand is why a person who is well employed and educated would marry and reproduce with someone who is unmotivated to be anything more than stay at home. OK fine if you have a few kids, I can see it temporarily. I can even see it happening for a decade or so, if the person staying home is motivated, involved in the kid’s activities, school, and keeps a well run house. Then that person is an asset to the employed spouse. Someone who is active will generally stay active and want to have something in their life after the kids are in middle school.

There is no way in hell I would marry someone who doesn’t make at least equal to what I do, or have the capacity to (experience, education and initiative). And if I do ever get married again, I will most definitely protect what I have and what I will have in the future. Yes BG, this thread is getting me riled up too. Not to defend either gender, but because there seems to be such a lack of common sense surrounding both. [/quote]

Well, personally, I’m not sure I agree with all this.

You sound like you’re planning a merger, not a marriage. Now, I know many here will liken a marriage to a merger of companies, but in reality, many have followed that thinking and look where we are. What happened to marrying for love? In my opinion, it is difficult enough to find someone you love, and someone who will love you in return, without the baggage of how much someone earns, etc.

If you allow yourself to be concerned with what someone earns, for instance, aren’t you at least indirectly marrying for financial gain?[/quote]

At this point in my life, I’d be crazy to hook up with someone permanently who didn’t have a decent income and the ability to pay there own stuff. I’m just in the comfortable middle class, not rich by any means. So I am not looking for financial gain, just to be able to stay ahead a little and save a few bucks for when I’m too old to do this shit anymore. When I got married 17 years ago, neither of us had much but both of us had the motivation and initiative to change that, along with the time to do it. Money had nothing to do with the end of that.

A good friend of mine has supported her SO for the better part of the past 20 years. He wanted to go to med school at 28. She pays all the bills and mortgage, meanwhile he failed the exam 3 times and basically has given up on ever being a doctor. All the income he makes goes to paying back atrocious student loans. Now they are both approaching the mid 40’s, she’s managed to save some but the years of supporting dead weight have taken a huge toll on her. I can see very well how this applies to a man working and a woman staying home and not contributing by either working or raising kids. It sucks.

Love is very important, but it has to be realistic too. Some people are not right for each other, and as others voiced romantic fantasy is just that. Meh, maybe I’m jaded a bit, but I’m trying to make the best choices for myself and my daughter.

122

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I also think at the root of a lot of the divorce problems is the (mutual) resentment that the fairy tale soul mate bullshit is exactly that. If people could be more realistic about a relationship and accept very few are forever there doesn’t need to be such a big fucking drama of what a monumental failure THE marriage was, and then play like adults to separate.[/quote]

I’ve always avoided the unrealistic idea that a marriage would be some fairy tale- happily ever after- continuous and eternal bliss.

Avoiding that alone has saved a lot of heart ache and head ache.

Most of the ones I’ve seen fail were due to a postponement of happiness combined with unrealistic expectations.

We will be happy if/when- We get a house. So they buy a house, and are still not happy.

                      We have a baby. So they have a baby, and are even less happy.

                      When the kid goes to school, etc.

But what happens is that the things that were supposed to be a source of happiness, which are not actually able to produce happiness in and of themselves, turn into compounding stressors and disappointments.

That can only happen so many times before a very predictable end begins. He did everything right and isn’t happy, therefore she must have done something wrong.

She isn’t happy, and she did everything right, therefore he must have done something wrong.

Fact of the matter is, neither one was ever truly happy, and neither one realizes that the source of their disturbance is their own unrealistic expectations of of how life is “supposed to be”, and in the pursuit of all the crap that they stuffed their lives with, forgot to be happy with what they have, and instead postponed it for what they want.

[/quote]

This might as well be the story of my bf’s marriage right there. Unrealistic expectations and a sense of total entitlement from her.

123

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
I also think at the root of a lot of the divorce problems is the (mutual) resentment that the fairy tale soul mate bullshit is exactly that. If people could be more realistic about a relationship and accept very few are forever there doesn’t need to be such a big fucking drama of what a monumental failure THE marriage was, and then play like adults to separate.[/quote]

I’ve always avoided the unrealistic idea that a marriage would be some fairy tale- happily ever after- continuous and eternal bliss.

Avoiding that alone has saved a lot of heart ache and head ache.

Most of the ones I’ve seen fail were due to a postponement of happiness combined with unrealistic expectations.

We will be happy if/when- We get a house. So they buy a house, and are still not happy.

                      We have a baby. So they have a baby, and are even less happy.

                      When the kid goes to school, etc.

But what happens is that the things that were supposed to be a source of happiness, which are not actually able to produce happiness in and of themselves, turn into compounding stressors and disappointments.

That can only happen so many times before a very predictable end begins. He did everything right and isn’t happy, therefore she must have done something wrong.

She isn’t happy, and she did everything right, therefore he must have done something wrong.

Fact of the matter is, neither one was ever truly happy, and neither one realizes that the source of their disturbance is their own unrealistic expectations of of how life is “supposed to be”, and in the pursuit of all the crap that they stuffed their lives with, forgot to be happy with what they have, and instead postponed it for what they want.

[/quote]

Very true and insightful Sky. So this is the compounded problem of today societies endless persuit of happiness and materialistic obssessions?

124

[quote]dianab wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]dianab wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Who hid the decent women with serious life goals?
[/quote]

Yes.
What I don’t understand is why a person who is well employed and educated would marry and reproduce with someone who is unmotivated to be anything more than stay at home. OK fine if you have a few kids, I can see it temporarily. I can even see it happening for a decade or so, if the person staying home is motivated, involved in the kid’s activities, school, and keeps a well run house. Then that person is an asset to the employed spouse. Someone who is active will generally stay active and want to have something in their life after the kids are in middle school.

There is no way in hell I would marry someone who doesn’t make at least equal to what I do, or have the capacity to (experience, education and initiative). And if I do ever get married again, I will most definitely protect what I have and what I will have in the future. Yes BG, this thread is getting me riled up too. Not to defend either gender, but because there seems to be such a lack of common sense surrounding both. [/quote]

Well, personally, I’m not sure I agree with all this.

You sound like you’re planning a merger, not a marriage. Now, I know many here will liken a marriage to a merger of companies, but in reality, many have followed that thinking and look where we are. What happened to marrying for love? In my opinion, it is difficult enough to find someone you love, and someone who will love you in return, without the baggage of how much someone earns, etc.

If you allow yourself to be concerned with what someone earns, for instance, aren’t you at least indirectly marrying for financial gain?[/quote]

At this point in my life, I’d be crazy to hook up with someone permanently who didn’t have a decent income and the ability to pay there own stuff. I’m just in the comfortable middle class, not rich by any means. So I am not looking for financial gain, just to be able to stay ahead a little and save a few bucks for when I’m too old to do this shit anymore. When I got married 17 years ago, neither of us had much but both of us had the motivation and initiative to change that, along with the time to do it. Money had nothing to do with the end of that.

A good friend of mine has supported her SO for the better part of the past 20 years. He wanted to go to med school at 28. She pays all the bills and mortgage, meanwhile he failed the exam 3 times and basically has given up on ever being a doctor. All the income he makes goes to paying back atrocious student loans. Now they are both approaching the mid 40’s, she’s managed to save some but the years of supporting dead weight have taken a huge toll on her. I can see very well how this applies to a man working and a woman staying home and not contributing by either working or raising kids. It sucks.

Love is very important, but it has to be realistic too. Some people are not right for each other, and as others voiced romantic fantasy is just that. Meh, maybe I’m jaded a bit, but I’m trying to make the best choices for myself and my daughter.[/quote]

sounds to me like you’re jaded…a bit :slight_smile:

And I’m not speaking of supporting someone. What your friend did was an extreme example. I don’t need someone to make what I make and never will. Do I want to “support” someone? No, of course not. Do I need my financial equal? No.

I don’t think “love” is a fantasy. Love is based upon a number of elements, including enduring respect, affection and support. Leave love out of the equation, and you have a business transaction. No thanks. And your business transaction will not get you to the finish line - you’ll just be another statistic or unhappy person given enough time.

Money never made me happy, so I will not concern myself with the earnings of my mate. I’d rather live in a trailer with the woman I love than in a McMansion with the woman I like.

Did our grandparents give so much thought to money prior to marriage?

125

BG, I guess it’s not so much the money, but the will to contribute and not be a lazy ass. To have some goals, and be able to plan out how to reach them, and then do it. I don’t need a lot of material things in my life to make me happy. Hell if a guy brushed the snow off my car I’d consider that of more importance than some fancy presents or shit like that. I don’t think love is a fantasy, I still believe in it, I just take a more realistic to it approach these days.

If a met a guy who made half of what I did (he’s be a poor fucker BTW) but paid his debts and had enough to cover his nut at the end of the month, I’d be fine with that. But if he was working in the same dead-end job for the past 20 years and constantly bitched about not having money or opportunities, then forget it. Seems like a lot of people marry knowing that one of them is not motivated and just expects the household expenses and (usually her) QVC purchases to be magically covered.

126

[quote]DJHT wrote:

Very true and insightful Sky. So this is the compounded problem of today societies endless persuit of happiness and materialistic obssessions? [/quote]

I don’t know. Maybe? I can’t be sure how broad or pervasive it is on a societal level, just that it has been a major factor in some of the marriages I’ve seen deteriorate and fail.

I look at it as more of a symptom of deeper dysfunction. Nothing wrong with the pursuit of happiness in its many forms. Nothing wrong with material wealth either. But when people think that they are one and the same, there is a problem.

Call it hard knocks or what have you, but I had to learn to be happy with myself and appreciate life unencumbered before I could start complicating it with another person, a bunch of shiny junk, and a place to put it. I had all of that in my early 20’s and blew them all just as easy as it was gotten. Fortunately, there wasn’t any wife or kids in the picture to get messed up in my own personal learning curve.

It’s like a fallacy of reasoning to think that something external, the next, newest, or best is going to change anything when the internal state of a person hasn’t changed. Placing the responsibility of the feeling of well being on an object, goal, or someone else just seems irresponsible.

127

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

Very true and insightful Sky. So this is the compounded problem of today societies endless persuit of happiness and materialistic obssessions? [/quote]

I don’t know. Maybe? I can’t be sure how broad or pervasive it is on a societal level, just that it has been a major factor in some of the marriages I’ve seen deteriorate and fail.

I look at it as more of a symptom of deeper dysfunction. Nothing wrong with the pursuit of happiness in its many forms. Nothing wrong with material wealth either. But when people think that they are one and the same, there is a problem.

Call it hard knocks or what have you, but I had to learn to be happy with myself and appreciate life unencumbered before I could start complicating it with another person, a bunch of shiny junk, and a place to put it. I had all of that in my early 20’s and blew them all just as easy as it was gotten. Fortunately, there wasn’t any wife or kids in the picture to get messed up in my own personal learning curve.

It’s like a fallacy of reasoning to think that something external, the next, newest, or best is going to change anything when the internal state of a person hasn’t changed. Placing the responsibility of the feeling of well being on an object, goal, or someone else just seems irresponsible.

[/quote]

Again the point of obssession you and the new wife desire a home, you get a home and then you desire a bigger home, you get bigger home but you still want an even bigger home. When is it enough? I just think in large part that this desire and ultimate failure drives resentment in couples also. Or drives the man to endless, tirelessly persue the desire of “stable” we have everything now, so he works his ass off and doesnt also emotionally care for his spouse etc. Anyway just thought you had a good point.

128

[quote]dianab wrote:
BG, I guess it’s not so much the money, but the will to contribute and not be a lazy ass. To have some goals, and be able to plan out how to reach them, and then do it. I don’t need a lot of material things in my life to make me happy. Hell if a guy brushed the snow off my car I’d consider that of more importance than some fancy presents or shit like that. I don’t think love is a fantasy, I still believe in it, I just take a more realistic to it approach these days.

If a met a guy who made half of what I did (he’s be a poor fucker BTW) but paid his debts and had enough to cover his nut at the end of the month, I’d be fine with that. But if he was working in the same dead-end job for the past 20 years and constantly bitched about not having money or opportunities, then forget it. Seems like a lot of people marry knowing that one of them is not motivated and just expects the household expenses and (usually her) QVC purchases to be magically covered.[/quote]

Well said. When I write that I don’t want the gold digger at Burger King, if you think this means that income is all I look at, you are mistaken. Unless someone has met up with some very unfortunate times at no fault of their own (like a recent lay off or something like that), you can tell quite a bit about someone by what they have done with the last 5-10 years of their life. What would I have in common with someone whose life goal is fry cook? Their overall income isn’t the dominant factor in the problem I have with that. Their goals in life, their accomplishments and their mental state are.

129

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

Call it hard knocks or what have you, but I had to learn to be happy with myself and appreciate life unencumbered before I could start complicating it with another person, a bunch of shiny junk, and a place to put it.

[/quote]

This is also what I was getting at. I was on a constant track of schooling and work for the last 15 or so years of my life. For the first time, I am finally able to sit back and enjoy my surroundings. You have to be happy with yourself first before worrying about bringing someone else on…and if that person doesn’t UPGRADE your life, then you need to leave her. I don’t want to be with someone who either keeps me at the same place (as far as happiness, finances or anything else) or makes it worse.

If I am supporting the girl completely financially, it probably won’t work out. If she isn’t making me even more happy than I am by myself, then she stay behind.

Life is too short to jump into a full time relationship for marriage just so you can say you are with someone. It does all come down to quality of life…and requirement number one is that we both enhance each other’s.

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Maybe I’m just shallow, but income (or potential income) is one of the things that I take into consideration when deciding who I’ll marry.(luckily, I think I found her already) I don’t see how that can be ignored unless you’re already wealthy and can maintain a comfortable lifestyle on your salary alone. And at that point, you’re risking alot of that wealth due to the risk of divorce.

Maybe it’s because I grew up poor as fuck but there’s no way I’d have a serious relationship with a woman who worked as a maid, or a cashier at Walmart for $8 an hour as a career. I’ve worked my ass off, went to college plus grad school and saved up enough money to buy my own home. I want a woman that has worked as hard as I have.

Not one who fucked around her whole life and now is making 8 bucks an hour at the age of 28. She doesn’t need to make as much as I do, but living in NJ is expensive and if she’s not making at least $40K per year, we’re not going to be living as comfortable as I need.

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[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
Maybe I’m just shallow, but income (or potential income) is one of the things that I take into consideration when deciding who I’ll marry.(luckily, I think I found her already) I don’t see how that can be ignored unless you’re already wealthy and can maintain a comfortable lifestyle on your salary alone. And at that point, you’re risking alot of that wealth due to the risk of divorce.

Maybe it’s because I grew up poor as fuck but there’s no way I’d have a serious relationship with a woman who worked as a maid, or a cashier at Walmart for $8 an hour as a career. I’ve worked my ass off, went to college plus grad school and saved up enough money to buy my own home. I want a woman that has worked as hard as I have. Not one who fucked around her whole life and now is making 8 bucks an hour at the age of 28. She doesn’t need to make as much as I do, but living in NJ is expensive and if she’s not making at least $40K per year, we’re not going to be living as comfortable as I need.[/quote]

100% agreement…and no, it doesn’t make you shallow at all even though if you mention this to people who do work as a cashier, they will take it that way.

I have done every job from sweeping up trash at Astro-World to bringing in baskets at Target. I never once thought I would be spending my life there like some people seemed to be doing when I worked there. there were people in their 40’s who had been there for 15-20 years but never moved up into management or anything like that.

To ignore that is setting yourself up for failure.

No, you should not base your love on income, but love doesn’t pay the bills and the biggest problem most marriages have leading to divorce is MONEY.

It is a lopsided marriage if I worked my ass off to reach a certain level but get with someone who will be a leach at best and possibly drag me down because of lack of goals.

Further, what would we have in common? Looks aren’t even at the top of the pile if everything else is off.

Ignoring income in a world like today is just retarded…and will likely end with the guy who is making more losing most of it when he finally figures that out.

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Following this conversation I think income potential and what counts as ‘comfortable’ living is important. My wife and I live off one income, banking the second. So when the kid came around we both thought by default that she would stay home…except she cannot stand staying home and cares more about her job that I did mine.

So I switched to part-time (may schedule was far more flexible anyway, just the workload too much for full-time) because our desire to raise a child with a parent at home for the first few years was greater than out material needs, we were already comfortable.

Anyway, she and I both know/knew too many people where the second income paid for only daycare. We did not see the point in that, it is good we agreed on that as well. That is not to say that it was a decisions easily reached but it is the one that met our goals.

This works for us because we came from backgrounds that did not stress having all the luxuries as necessities and so we can be comfortable as a family at a much lower income than some people can as singles. We knew this before we got married. Others may think twice the bank twice the stuff. That, I think, is problematic.

Life changes things, kids even more so. You give up a lot of freedom when you have kids, or you pay someone lots of money to get some of that freedom back.

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Money never made me happy, so I will not concern myself with the earnings of my mate. I’d rather live in a trailer with the woman I love than in a McMansion with the woman I like.

Did our grandparents give so much thought to money prior to marriage?[/quote]

Money will never make me happy either but I think for any person, a lack of money really complicates emotions. That is human nature. I think the burden of the responsibility of the lack of money and the entitlement of money is where it gets ugly.

Our grandparents didn’t have to worry about divorce, but I know for a fact that mine got into plenty of fights over money when my granny had 6 crying mouths and grandpa was boozing instead of working. She just had to accept it though, because she couldn’t divorce him or get a job to get the money for herself.

But they were VERY poor by North American standards. They were living in slums and wealth really is relative. This is a picture from the neighbourhood where my parents grew up in the 50’s.

I think it’s probably easier to be poor when everyone around you is and you don’t have a tv telling you what your standard ought to be because my mom says she never felt she had any less than anyone else at the time but when she came to Canada and eventually became a part of the middle class, the pressure to have ‘stuff’ was tremendous.

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[quote]debraD wrote:

I think it’s probably easier to be poor when everyone around you is and you don’t have a tv telling you what your standard ought to be because my mom says she never felt she had any less than anyone else at the time but when she came to Canada and eventually became a part of the middle class, the pressure to have ‘stuff’ was tremendous.
[/quote]

This is true and it is why so many people in ghettos get “stuck” in that mentality and that predicament becomes cyclical. Money is not my main concern. I didn’t go into the military to be rich. I went in for life experience and to help people. Money does not rule my life, but anyone acting like it isn’t a HUGE factor in all of our lives is being blind to the situation.

I doubt anyone here means that they base LOVE on a bank account…but what that income means and what led to it are all a part of who that person is as a whole.

135

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Did our grandparents give so much thought to money prior to marriage?[/quote]

Depends on whose grandparents you’re talking about. There’s no way to prove if they gave more thought to wealth as compared to today’s couples. We do know for a fact, that many did give it thought back then and even further back in history. Whether it’s more common today, I couldn’t tell you.

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[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Did our grandparents give so much thought to money prior to marriage?[/quote]

Depends on whose grandparents you’re talking about. There’s no way to prove if they gave more thought to wealth as compared to today’s couples. We do know for a fact, that many did give it thought back then and even further back in history. Whether it’s more common today, I couldn’t tell you.[/quote]

My grandparents were both poor and black. I take that back. My grandmother could have possibly passed for white if she tried but my grandfather was darker than midnight to a blind man. I am sure they did think about money, but since all of the other black people were poor, I am sure it was much like the situation described by debra above…ie, when everyone else is poor, you don’t exactly expect to be the one guy on the block living in a condo with a Porsche outside.

Considering the hardships they went through, I seriously doubt they lived life without thinking about money all of the time.

It was a different time though and less people around were truly successful…SO OBVIOUSLY they weren’t looking for the one in a million guy who wasn’t.

137

Great thread, alot of great points made here, especially the part where society has put pressure on soccer moms to have certain things that are wants are now becoming needs, ex. a minivan with tvs in it, private school along with after school activities. Even though we know we cannot afford it.
My current situation is where we have 4 kids, one deceased and 3 alive. Well we have a house and all but one day she decided she was not happy and she called the cops over stating I was abusing her when in fact she was the one hitting me, I wanted so badly to hit her but I knew I was gonna get screwed over.
So here I am staying in my parents garage, paying the house and all the bills. While im delayed in paying my own bills, I only do it for the kids they come first. She wants spending money on top of that. Yet I cant even see my kids because Im not giving her enough money, its like bodyguard said it makes angry and sick of the situation.
As a man I provided her with needs and wants yet when we go to court I will get screwed inside and out. It just pisses me off of the power they are allowed to have. And yes they where problems before but still it is so out of control. This society caters to the minority or rather said the minority have the power over the majority which is not right in my opinion.

138

^ Find a great lawyer is all I can say. He said she said with no police reports showing domestic calls or medical bills/ER visits. This is the true double standard because you are guilty until proven innocent.

139

[quote]jre67t wrote:
Great thread, alot of great points made here, especially the part where society has put pressure on soccer moms to have certain things that are wants are now becoming needs, ex. a minivan with tvs in it, private school along with after school activities. Even though we know we cannot afford it.
My current situation is where we have 4 kids, one deceased and 3 alive. Well we have a house and all but one day she decided she was not happy and she called the cops over stating I was abusing her when in fact she was the one hitting me, I wanted so badly to hit her but I knew I was gonna get screwed over.
So here I am staying in my parents garage, paying the house and all the bills. While im delayed in paying my own bills, I only do it for the kids they come first. She wants spending money on top of that. Yet I cant even see my kids because Im not giving her enough money, its like bodyguard said it makes angry and sick of the situation.
As a man I provided her with needs and wants yet when we go to court I will get screwed inside and out. It just pisses me off of the power they are allowed to have. And yes they where problems before but still it is so out of control. This society caters to the minority or rather said the minority have the power over the majority which is not right in my opinion.
[/quote]

Bad situation, the past there.
You said WHEN you go to court, so it’s not a done deal?
Because if it’s not, you do have rights. Kids come first, yes, but do they need all the material things you are providing? Not as much as they need 2 parents (together or not).
My guy got out of something similar to what you are describing the day before he was supposed to sign a ridiculous agreement. If you are still legally able, lawyer the fuck up!

140

[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ Find a great lawyer is all I can say. He said she said with no police reports showing domestic calls or medical bills/ER visits. This is the true double standard because you are guilty until proven innocent. [/quote]

…and it’s shit like that which scares me. I can only imagine how cops would act in that situation if they walk in and see some guy over 250lbs standing next to his 130lbs wife as she claims he hit her.

I am being serious when I say I really don’t see the overall benefit of actually being married for the guy. Long term relationship? Yes. Marriage that basically makes it legal for me to be ass raped in court should the wife ever either stop loving me, have an affair or decide she wants my paycheck because it goes great with her new boyfriend? Hell fuck no.