Net Neutrality

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

[/quote]

I can only claim what is.

The military is a part of the government,is it not?

The military created the internet.

In the world as we know it then,without the government,you can only speculate that the internet would have been created.I don’t have to speculate.

It’s a fact.

22

[quote]orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

[/quote]

Military is funded through the government.

23

[quote]orion wrote:
…
Now if you would also realize that they necessarily do prevent more “good” from happening when doing good, resulting in the loss of more good that could have been, you will realize that the government “doing good” is the problem.

[/quote]

I don’t think so but it is something that must be considered with every piece of legislation as well as every tax enacted.

Government sucks at many things but they are better than the free market at things that do not have a great payback, such as law enforcement, environmental concerns, some infrastructure…

24

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

I can only claim what is.

The military is a part of the government,is it not?

The military created the internet.

In the world as we know it then,without the government,you can only speculate that the internet would have been created.I don’t have to speculate.

It’s a fact.[/quote]

What is a fact that you and Zap started to speculate that the internet would not exist without the government and that is not a fact.

It takes much less speculation on my part that a technology that was in the air at that time would have been used sooner or later.

25

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

Military is funded through the government.[/quote]

Who claimed something else.

26

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Now if you would also realize that they necessarily do prevent more “good” from happening when doing good, resulting in the loss of more good that could have been, you will realize that the government “doing good” is the problem.

I don’t think so but it is something that must be considered with every piece of legislation as well as every tax enacted.

Government sucks at many things but they are better than the free market at things that do not have a great payback, such as law enforcement, environmental concerns, some infrastructure…[/quote]

In other words public goods.

In all other cases however, government action must result in an outcome of less utility for the overall system because

a) the government needs people to collect and re-distribute the money and they are a cost factor and

b) if people actually wanted the stuff government finances with their taxes the market would have already provided it, at less cost.

I guess it is a good thing that the private sector took a good idea and made it a great idea, but to think that no one, no university, no company, really no one would have created something similar is weird.

27

[quote]orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

I can only claim what is.

The military is a part of the government,is it not?

The military created the internet.

In the world as we know it then,without the government,you can only speculate that the internet would have been created.I don’t have to speculate.

It’s a fact.

What is a fact that you and Zap started to speculate that the internet would not exist without the government and that is not a fact.

It takes much less speculation on my part that a technology that was in the air at that time would have been used sooner or later.

[/quote]

Sophist crap.

Fact:The internet exists.

Fact:The US military is part of the government.

Fact:The US military,through ARPA,developed ARPANET,which was the origin of the internet.

Speculation:The internet may or may not have been developed as we know it today if governments were not involved.

Unless of course you wish to rewrite history.

28

[quote]nephorm wrote:
The “free market” does not work because there is a scarcity of resources, and only a few large players own the lion’s share of high-bandwidth infrastructure. Until that changes, it might be nice to protect consumers from the mafia-esque tactics of the large providers.[/quote]

Then the gov’t needs to deregulate…not enact more regulation. Do you see the vicious cycle of regulation that always happens when gov’t gets involved?

There is nothing inherently wrong with monopolies as long as entry into the market isn’t barred by gov’t regulation – which is what net neutrality is going to do.

It really only matters that the standards (TCP/IP) remain open so that the internet remains available.

29

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

I can only claim what is.

The military is a part of the government,is it not?

The military created the internet.

In the world as we know it then,without the government,you can only speculate that the internet would have been created.I don’t have to speculate.

It’s a fact.

What is a fact that you and Zap started to speculate that the internet would not exist without the government and that is not a fact.

It takes much less speculation on my part that a technology that was in the air at that time would have been used sooner or later.

Sophist crap.

Fact:The internet exists.

Fact:The US military is part of the government.

Fact:The US military,through ARPA,developed ARPANET,which was the origin of the internet.

Speculation:The internet may or may not have been developed as we know it today if governments were not involved.

Unless of course you wish to rewrite history.[/quote]

You are twisting my words when I take yours as written and I am the one writing sophist crap?

Excellent.

30

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

Unless of course you wish to rewrite history.[/quote]

Actually, the standards were not written by anyone in the military but rather DoD and DARPA that worked on what later became known as TCP/IP. The original was ARPANET.

You can thank a couple of physicists at CERN for HTML, etc.

No one person or group of persons is credited for “inventing” the internet. It is a product of open cooperation. PERIOD. There is no way DoD could have made it what it has become today.

31

[quote]orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote

With no government action the internet would not exist.

Fact.

Nonsense.

I’m all ears.

Figuratively speaking.

Tell me how the internet came to be…

Through the military.

The claim that it would not exist without the government is nonsense.

I can only claim what is.

The military is a part of the government,is it not?

The military created the internet.

In the world as we know it then,without the government,you can only speculate that the internet would have been created.I don’t have to speculate.

It’s a fact.

What is a fact that you and Zap started to speculate that the internet would not exist without the government and that is not a fact.

It takes much less speculation on my part that a technology that was in the air at that time would have been used sooner or later.

Sophist crap.

Fact:The internet exists.

Fact:The US military is part of the government.

Fact:The US military,through ARPA,developed ARPANET,which was the origin of the internet.

Speculation:The internet may or may not have been developed as we know it today if governments were not involved.

Unless of course you wish to rewrite history.

You are twisting my words when I take yours as written and I am the one writing sophist crap?

Excellent.
[/quote]

Fact and speculation,and the difference between the two.

Is it clear enough?

32

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

Fact and speculation,and the difference between the two.

Is it clear enough?[/quote]

To me or are you asking me if you get the difference.

The answer would be yes and I´m not sure.

"There would be no Internet without the government"for example is pure speculation.

33

[quote]orion wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

Fact and speculation,and the difference between the two.

Is it clear enough?

To me or are you asking me if you get the difference.

The answer would be yes and I´m not sure.

"There would be no Internet without the government"for example is pure speculation. [/quote]

Let’s go through this,step by step,so we can see if we can get logical clarity,shall we?

What do you consider to be ‘fact’?

34

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

What do you consider to be ‘fact’?

[/quote]

It’s a fact that the Internet was developed by the US Military/DARPA. It is not a fact that the Internet would never have otherwise come into existence. That is just pure speculation. Orion is correct.

35

[quote]nephorm wrote:
The “free market” does not work because there is a scarcity of resources, [/quote]

Any given market emerges precisely because there exists a (relative) scarcity of resources.

By your logic (that because we already have intervention & regulation, we need more of it) we should never find a reason for less intervention, and always find a reason for more. But you’re right in a sense: regulation (and its unintended consequences) begets still more regulation, and so we spiral in towards a sub-optimal outcome.

Most monopolies are created by intervention in the first place - whether this is the intended effect of the intervention/regulation or not. There are very few “natural monopolies.”

36

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

Fact:The internet exists.

Fact:The US military is part of the government.

Fact:The US military,through ARPA,developed ARPANET,which was the origin of the internet.

Speculation:The internet may or may not have been developed as we know it today if governments were not involved.
[/quote]

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

What do you consider to be ‘fact’?

It’s a fact that the Internet was developed by the US Military/DARPA. It is not a fact that the Internet would never have otherwise come into existence. That is just pure speculation. Orion is correct. [/quote]

There’s what I wrote.

37

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

There’s what I wrote.[/quote]

sorry…all yer bickering confused the hell out of me. carry on…

38

[quote]orion wrote:

What is a fact that you and Zap started to speculate that the internet would not exist without the government and that is not a fact.

It takes much less speculation on my part that a technology that was in the air at that time would have been used sooner or later.

[/quote]

You are the one making speculations, obviously. What Zap stated was a fact, plain and simple. All things being equal, there would be no internet without the US Gov. It is speculation to say otherwise.

39

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

It’s a fact that the Internet was developed by the US Military/DARPA. It is not a fact that the Internet would never have otherwise come into existence. That is just pure speculation. Orion is correct. [/quote]

Orion is the one making that speculation.

Zap wrote… “With no government action the internet would not exist.”

For this statement to be false there has to be disagreement about the definition of “Internet.” That would be a silly thing to disagree about.

40

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Any given market emerges precisely because there exists a (relative) scarcity of resources.
[/quote]

I probably should have written “a monopoly on resources,” but that is not accurate, either. At any rate, we are not talking about the market for high-speed internet backbones, because such a market does not exist to any appreciable degree. It does not exist because it is too cost prohibitive to create new backbones. Markets can only function when the resources are scarce enough to be valuable, but entry costs are low enough that a plurality of sellers can exist.

That’s an interesting way to twist my words. We do not exist in a regulatory vacuum. Fighting tooth and nail against all additional regulation, especially when the regulation is needed to fix a problem, is poor politics at best.

I do not know what regulations prevent smaller companies from laying down high bandwidth fiber in large quantities. Do you? Even so… if we were to eliminate all of those regulations, do you think new companies would suddenly spring up, planting fiber all over the country? I don’t - because I can think of at least half a dozen very cost-prohibitive reasons why that would not be practical for a startup company. Not the least of which is that it is disruptive to put run fiber where it is needed.

Lifticus ignores this problem, because he seems to believe that wireless technologies will solve the issue - while apparently ignoring the high latency and susceptibility to noise to which wireless technologies are prone.