[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Twisted? From the Wikipedia:
“While in Salah al-Din Baer unsuccessfully urged the Clinton Administration to back an internal Iraqi attempt to overthrow Saddam Hussein (organized by a group of Sunni military officers, the Iraqi National Congress’ Ahmad Chalabi, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan’s Jalal Talabani) in March of 1995 with covert CIA assistance. Baer quit the Agency in 1997.”[/quote]
You talked about indictment and criminal charges. That’s “twisting” in my book.
Did you miss the disclosure of “The Family Jewels” a few days ago? Patrice Lumumba of the Congo? Fidel Castro of Cuba? Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán of Guatemala? Achmad Sukarno of Indonesia? Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia? Muammar Gadafy of Libya? Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia? Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic?
More recently, what did you do about Pat Robertson and his call to assassinate Chavez?
I wouldn’t be so assertive if I were you. At the moment, we lack insight into what was really happening in the oval office. Let’s talk about the reasons for not doing it when documents are declassified.
Did you miss the disclosure of “The Family Jewels” a few days ago? Patrice Lumumba of the Congo? Fidel Castro of Cuba? Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán of Guatemala? Achmad Sukarno of Indonesia? Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia? Muammar Gadafy of Libya? Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia? Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic?
More recently, what did you do about Pat Robertson and his call to assassinate Chavez?
[/quote]
Can not say I read up on the documents. IMO they should not have been released. How many of those leaders did the CIA actually kill?
You wouldn’t have that information would you?
As far as Pat Robertson goes…
The same thing you think of Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel. Only Pat Robertson isn’t the President, he’s not even in the CIA.
"In 1976, President Gerald R. Ford issued Executive Order 11905 to clarify U.S. foreign-intelligence activities. In a section of the order labeled “Restrictions on Intelligence Activities,” Ford concisely but explicitly outlawed political assassination:
5(g) Prohibition on Assassination. No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination.
Since 1976, every U.S. president has upheld Fordâ¿¿s prohibition on assassinations. In 1978, President Jimmy Carter issued an executive order with the chief purpose of reshaping the intelligence structure. In Section 2-305 of that order, Carter reaffirmed the U.S. prohibition on assassination:
In 1981, President Reagan, through Executive Order 12333, reiterated the assassination prohibition:
2.11 No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.
Reagan was the last president to address the topic of political assassination. Because no subsequent executive order or piece of legislation has repealed the prohibition, it remains in effect."
That is the rule Baer broke when he set up the assassination of Saddam.
How many of the leaders did the CIA assassinate? None. A coup is different than an assassination. And most of the leaders you talk about were in power before 1976.
Lumumba…From the Wikipedia:
“The Belgian commission’s 2001 report led to an official apology. In February of 2002, the Belgian government apologized to the Congolese people, and admitted to a “moral responsibility” and “an irrefutable portion of responsibility in the events that led to the death of Lumumba.” In July of the same year documents released by the United States government revealed that while the CIA had been kept informed of Belgium’s plans, they had no direct role in Lumumba’s eventual death.” He died in 1961, prior to the rule.
Sukarno…from the Wikipedia:
“Sukarno was stripped of his presidential title by Indonesia’s provisional parliament on March 12, 1967, led by his former ally, Nasution, and remained under house arrest until his death at age 69 in Jakarta in 1970. He was buried in Blitar, East Java, Indonesia.”
Also prior to the rule.
Castro is still head of Cuba, Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán died in Exile, Sihanouk is still alive living in China, Gadafy is still head of Libya. Milosevic was kicked out during a coup and died in prison.
[quote]lixy wrote:
For all those reasons (and I have a ton more), it is highly hypocritical - and downright absurd - to claim that the US presence in Iraq is motivated by a concern over democracy. You never cared about democracy unless the winner was on your side. So, I’ll kindly ask you to stop using that argument.[/quote]
It wasn’t. The reason we attacked Iraq was because of the threat that it had WMD’s and could have given them to terrorists.
And I agree with you, Pakistan has BOTH nukes and terrorists, so why our priorities was attacking Iraq, I’ll never know.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Can not say I read up on the documents. IMO they should not have been released. [/quote]
On the contrary. Transparence, freedom of speech, equality and justice for all are what makes America great. I urge to read them. Very lengthy, but extremely interesting.
[quote]As far as Pat Robertson goes…
The same thing you think of Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel. Only Pat Robertson isn’t the President, he’s not even in the CIA. [/quote]
Awww…Isn’t that myth ever gonna die?
Mahmoud didn’t call for Israel’s destruction. He said so himself. His office said so. The Ayatollah said so. His speech was mistranslated, period.
Seriously, do you think the guy is suicidal to overtly call for the destruction of a country whose army can blow up the whole world. C’mon! He’s an elected official and a scholar, not a bloody terrorist.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Lumumba…From the Wikipedia:[/quote]
Patrice �?mery Lumumba (2 July 1925 �?? 17 January 1961) was an African anti-colonial leader and the first legally elected Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo after he helped to win its independence from Belgium in June 1960. Only ten weeks later, Lumumba’s government was deposed in a US CIA-sponsored coup during the Congo Crisis. He was subsequently imprisoned and assassinated under controversial circumstances.
It has been claimed that a CIA memorandum of 1962 indicated that Prime Minister Macmillan and President John F. Kennedy were increasingly alarmed by the possibility of the Confrontation with Malaysia spreading, and agreed to “liquidate President Sukarno, depending on the situation and available opportunities.”
Attempts were made to kill them nonetheless. That was the point.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Just the facts, I read through your first set of fifteen links and I am now thoroughtly convinced that you and my roommate would get along very well. I also realize that I wasted a good amount of time just to be able to respond to you with out being completely ignorant of what you were talking about.
I have already been heavily bombarded with your Israelis in a van story. You fail to point out that they were extensively interogated for over a month then released. You are interpreting that story to suit your world view. Even if the story is completely true it does not prove the theory that the Israelis were responsible for 9/11.[/quote]
You might want to spend some time watching this one through…
How any AMERICAN can defend Israel’s actions after watching that is beyond comprehension. Are we then supposed to take the “van story” out of context of the Fox News story?
“Fox News has learned that some American terrorist investigators fear certain suspects in the Sept. 11 attacks may have managed to stay ahead of them, by knowing who and when investigators are calling on the telephone.”
And I’ll bet your not even curious how Arab “al Qaeda” hijackers got this high level phone data from an Israeli telecommunications company?
You would think so wouldn’t you…
“investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying through Comverse is considered career suicide.”
What could they mean by that? In other words, who are they so afraid of?
Unfortunately this whole spy thing goes all the way to the Pentagon and directly involves the phony intelligence on Iraq…
Congress Must Investigate Spy Scandal by Rep. John Conyers
AIPAC espionage case points to larger spy scandal
Fury over Pentagon cell that briefed White House on Iraq’s ‘imaginary’ al-Qaeda links
A Senior Pentagon policy maker [Douglas Feith] created an unofficial “Iraqi intelligence cell” in the summer of 2002 to circumvent the CIA and secretly brief the White House on links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qa’eda, according to the Senate intelligence committee… http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/11/wsept11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/11/ixnewstop.html
CIA doubts didn’t deter Feith’s team
Intelligence agencies disagreed with many of its prewar findings.
February 10, 2007
WASHINGTON - As the Bush administration began assembling its case for war, analysts across the U.S. intelligence community were disturbed by the report of a secretive Pentagon team that concluded Iraq had significant ties to Al Qaeda…
Now look at Feith’s background… Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith
In October 1997, the Zionist Organization of America (ZOA) honored Feith and his father, Dalck Feith, at its annual dinner. The organization praised the Feiths as “noted Jewish philanthropists and pro-Israel activists” and awarded Dalck a Centennial Award “for his lifetime of service to Israel and the Jewish people,” while Douglas received the “prestigious Louis D. Brandeis Award.”
Louis D. Brandeis Award
The award is the highest honor given by the Zionist Organization of America, and goes to individuals “who, in the tradition of Justice Brandeis, demonstrate outstanding dedication and service to Israel, the Jewish people, and the community.”
Then add into the “Iraq intelligence” mix that Scooter Libby is a Jewish PNAC member…
It “flies in the face of logic” because you have yet to grasp the enormity of the fact that a tiny little FOREIGN country has hijacked US foreign policy.
The spies who pushed for war
And this goes right back to the intelligence on Iraq. Most of the very same people who lead us into Iraq are trying to push us into a war with Iran. The paid advertisement was put in the NYT as a counterbalance to the daily barrage of opinion articles like I listed that are trying to sell us on ANOTHER war and to point out WHO is REALLY behind this call to “Bomb Iran”.
Same PROPAGANDA as Iraq…
“Members of the war party dominate the opinion sectors of the print media…”
[quote]Also some stories that the Israelis have spied on the US which do nothing to explain intent. But I can see how they would help to provoke your world view.
Then after I have finally gotten through the first set of links, I read further into the thread and see you have thrown a couple dozen more out. At which point I said fuck it I’m not reading through twenty of thirty pages of links and sitting through half an hour of youtube in order to be able to reply to your your post that you took all of two minutes to copy and paste while throwing in a sentence or two of remarks.
At this point I have a much higher regard for Lixy. Who at least takes the time to engage in a dialogue instead of pasting a bunch of links. [/quote]
The reason I post so many links is because I’m engaging in a dialogue on a subject that you and 98% of the rest of the US population knows nothing about. I’m already constantly attacked for being anti-Semitic – I can only imagine if I didn’t provide some kind of reference. I mean holy shit, 41% of American numbskulls still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11! http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Poll_41_of_Americans_believe_Saddam_0624.html
As if people like me are creating animosity toward Jews – maybe so many JEWS shouldn’t be writing opinion pieces about why we need to start ANOTHER war with another Arab country in the midst of an already miserably failed war.
And just MAYBE the world’s opinion of the US has plummeted…
Veteran neo-con advisor moves on Iran
WASHINGTON - When The Washington Post published a list of the people whom Karl Rove, President George W Bush’s closest advisor, regularly consults for advice outside the administration, foreign policy veterans were shocked when Michael Ledeen popped up as the only full-time international affairs analyst. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EF26Ak03.html
Elliott Abrams - Bush’s frightening Middle East appointment
By naming Iran-contra rogue Elliott Abrams its top policy advisor on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the White House is signaling a hard pro-Sharon line that could prove disastrous. http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/12/10/abrams/index.html
Its even hard to put into words the ENORMITY of what it means to install someone like Elliot Abrams as the top advisor to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict… obviously this was not out of “STUPIDITY” to put a Jewish, former Iran/Contra player, PNAC member and signatory of “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” in such a sensitive position.
But then of course “noted Jewish philanthropist and pro-Israel activist” and winner of the Zionist Organization of America’s highest honor, former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith, manufactures intelligence to involve us in our hugely “successful” war in Iraq that would have never been possible without “some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor…”
…and we’re to conclude the Israelis busted on 9/11 was somehow not all that significant?
JINSA (Jewish Institute For National Security Affairs) - September 13, 2001
In response to the attack on September 11, 2001 JINSA calls on the United States to:
Halt all US purchases of Iraqi oil under the UN Oil for Food Program and to provide all necessary support to the Iraq National Congress, including direct American military support, to effect a regime change in Iraq… http://www.jinsa.org/articles/print.html/documentid/1262
[quote]lixy wrote:
Attempts were made to kill them nonetheless. That was the point.[/quote]
I understood your point. My point was that the majority of the people you mentioned either died as a result of a coup, or are still alive. Plus the fact, that the majority of these incidents happened before the document I presented above.
My point about Robertson is this: He’s a preacher. Until he’s commander in chief, who cares what he says?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
My point about Robertson is this: He’s a preacher. Until he’s commander in chief, who cares what he says?
Are you serious? You seem to just be pulling my legs.
What makes Robertson’s comments ANY different from those of Al-Zawahiri?
It’s terrorism. Plain and simple.
Because Robertson isn’t part of a terrorist organization?[/quote]
Zap, do you consider his calls to assassinate a head of state are terrorism?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I assume you’d have Zawahiri charged and locked away for the rest of his life, no? [/quote]
Absolutely.
Not long. A couple of months should do to send a clear message that the US does not have double standards on terrorism. But I guess that ship has already sailed…
Seriously, unless you can prove self-defense (beyond the shadow of a doubt) to an imminent threat, violence or the threat or violence should be condemned in the harshest terms.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I assume you’d have Zawahiri charged and locked away for the rest of his life, no?
Absolutely.
Would you have Robertson charged with crimes of terrorism? For how long?
Not long. A couple of months should do to send a clear message that the US does not have double standards on terrorism. But I guess that ship has already sailed…
Seriously, unless you can prove self-defense (beyond the shadow of a doubt) to an imminent threat, violence or the threat or violence should be condemned in the harshest terms.[/quote]
Damn, I didn’t really expect you’d have the guy arrested for a tasteless utterance. After all, there doesn’t seem to be any further action from Robertson.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Damn, I didn’t really expect you’d have the guy arrested for a tasteless utterance. [/quote]
This is hypocrisy at its finest.
Had Pat been an Islamic scholar of some kind and called for the assassination of the Al-Sauds, you can bet your ass he’ll be behind bar for decades. How many people were indicted for merely calling others to join Islamic military efforts?
Answer this: If someone called for your assassination, wouldn’t you want him/her put in jail?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Damn, I didn’t really expect you’d have the guy arrested for a tasteless utterance.
This is hypocrisy at its finest.
Had Pat been an Islamic scholar of some kind and called for the assassination of the Al-Sauds, you can bet your ass he’ll be behind bar for decades. How many people were indicted for merely calling others to join Islamic military efforts?
Answer this: If someone called for your assassination, wouldn’t you want him/her put in jail?[/quote]
Nope. Some utterances, no matter how tasteless, are toothless. Now, if there’s any evidence of conspiracy to do so, that’s a different story.
I’m not seeing any evidence that Robertson is following up on this idea. Now, if he starts funding a camp teaching children how best to wear a suicide vest while approaching Chavez’s limo…Doh, sorry, he’s not Hamas.
Sorry, but what Robertson said, compared to AL Qaeda’s #2’s rhetoric (with action behind it), is at the most stupid. Which, frighteningly enough, you’d jail the man for.
