NCAA Football Playoff

[quote]rainjack wrote:
With all due respect - I think your reasoning against a full on playoff are weak at best.

Unless there is a real playoff system - there will never be a real champion. All the other collegiate sports have playoffs. Arguing against a playoff in D-1 football smacks of elitism.

I think that the plus one is a stupid, half-assed solution. a 4 team playoff out of over 100 schools? Until you remove as much subjectivity as possible from the playoff system, it will always be a popularity contest.

Leave that for the girls. [/quote]

Exactly!

[quote]tedro wrote:
I think the big thing about the plus-1 system is that they are actually considering seeding the teams and creating a four team playoff. The actual plus-1 would never happen because it is impossible to decide when they should play the extra game and who should be in it. It is also not fair if the top two teams played in the National Championship, only to have to play in a plus-1 game the next week.

This four-team playoff could definitely gain some traction, especially with so many of the Major Conference commissioners looking like they may be on board. It would definitely open up the door for a bigger playoff.

I say let them start with the four team playoff and just leave the Big 10 and Pac 10 out. They can go play in their traditional Rose Bowl again, it’s not like either conference is worthy of a National Championship.

As for your comment on Georgia, you may be right, but there is definitely a trend going on, and you cannot say they don’t have a valid point. I am sure Auburn and Florida are still right behind them.[/quote]

I’m a PSU fan and I would be pissed if we were left out. Of course, PSU knows how to win a bowl game, unlike the Big Ten, excusing Wisconsin, of course. In 94 PSU ran the table and was hosed due to the stupid Rose Bowl tie in.

I hate the big Ten and Notre Dame, btw.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Because of the Pac-10 and the Big-10. They want the attention, and a playoff system would upset that, and cost them money. [/quote]

Oh wait, you mean someone might actually lose money if a playoff system were in place?! NO WAY!

I wish someone had said that back in November when this thread rolled around the first time…

It feels like a blindfold has been taken off of my face, hearing for the first time these reasons for why a playoff isn’t in place!

[quote]
That’s bullshit. A playoff doesn’t do anything to cheapen the regular season. If anything, a playoff makes the regular season mean something besides wasting 11 Saturdays year.[/quote]

The larger the playoff, the less the regular season means. That’s common sense. At one extreme, look at the NBA, whose humongous playoff season has rendered the regular season into nothing more than a six month, public practice session.

College football is currently at the other extreme, where the regular season means everything. You don’t appreciate that, fine, but it ain’t bullshit.

I never said a playoff wouldn’t be profitable overall. I never even said a playoff wouldn’t possibly be more profitable overall than what’s in place now. I said that if a playoff was in place, then someone who’s getting money in the current system will get significantly less in the new system.

Of course, you came to the same conclusion yourself when you said that Pac-10 and Big Ten would receive less money if a playoff system were in place.

Right now, everybody’s happy. So as long as the fans continue to pour money into the system and as long as TV networks pay a lot of money for the rights to air the games, there won’t be a playoff.

It sure seems like I said all this before…

You’re claiming that the Pac-10 and Big Ten would lose money, and that’s why there’s no playoff. Congratulations, you just answered your own question!

Apparently, though, it didn’t stick when I gave the nearly same damn reason for why there’s no playoff back in November:

[quote]tGunslinger wrote on 11-29-2007:
Second, if there was a playoff model that would significantly increase profits for everybody involved without serious risk or cost, we would’ve had a playoff system in place ten years ago. The reason we don’t is that just about any model conceivable would leave someone out in the cold – probably either the bowls or the conferences, judging from most proposed playoff systems I’ve seen.

Everybody’s getting paid under the model we have now.[/quote]

You came up with the exact same logical reasons for why there’s no playoff all on your very own! Welcome to the Dark Side!

Hopefully now it’ll finally stick, and we won’t have to have this conversation a third time.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
You are right about the money argument, but you’re missing something. who will make the new money compared to the old money? that’s why some are opposed. They’re making money now.
[/quote]

I’m not missing anything. You’re two months late to the party, or else you would’ve already heard me trying to hammer that point home.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Because of the Pac-10 and the Big-10. They want the attention, and a playoff system would upset that, and cost them money.

Oh wait, you mean someone might actually lose money if a playoff system were in place?! NO WAY!

I wish someone had said that back in November when this thread rolled around the first time…

Because a playoff won’t work without the Big-10 and the pac-10. They would lose money in a playoff system, while the rest of college football would become richer.

It feels like a blindfold has been taken off of my face, hearing for the first time these reasons for why a playoff isn’t in place!

That’s bullshit. A playoff doesn’t do anything to cheapen the regular season. If anything, a playoff makes the regular season mean something besides wasting 11 Saturdays year.

The larger the playoff, the less the regular season means. That’s common sense. At one extreme, look at the NBA, whose humongous playoff season has rendered the regular season into nothing more than a six month, public practice session.

College football is currently at the other extreme, where the regular season means everything. You don’t appreciate that, fine, but it ain’t bullshit.

I think it’s funny that you think a playoff system is not profitable. You might want to tell that to college basketball.

I never said a playoff wouldn’t be profitable overall. I never even said a playoff wouldn’t possibly be more profitable overall than what’s in place now. I said that if a playoff was in place, then someone who’s getting money in the current system will get significantly less in the new system.

Of course, you came to the same conclusion yourself when you said that Pac-10 and Big Ten would receive less money if a playoff system were in place.

Right now, everybody’s happy. So as long as the fans continue to pour money into the system and as long as TV networks pay a lot of money for the rights to air the games, there won’t be a playoff.

It sure seems like I said all this before…

No one on the “Playoffs are bad idea” team can logically explain why D-1 football is the only collegiate sport without a playoff system.

You’re claiming that the Pac-10 and Big Ten would lose money, and that’s why there’s no playoff. Congratulations, you just answered your own question!

Apparently, though, it didn’t stick when I gave the nearly same damn reason for why there’s no playoff back in November:

tGunslinger wrote on 11-29-2007:
Second, if there was a playoff model that would significantly increase profits for everybody involved without serious risk or cost, we would’ve had a playoff system in place ten years ago. The reason we don’t is that just about any model conceivable would leave someone out in the cold – probably either the bowls or the conferences, judging from most proposed playoff systems I’ve seen.

Everybody’s getting paid under the model we have now.

You came up with the exact same logical reasons for why there’s no playoff all on your very own! Welcome to the Dark Side!

Hopefully now it’ll finally stick, and we won’t have to have this conversation a third time.[/quote]

The fact that you think the above tripe is logical saddens me.

TV will offer tons more money for a playoff system. Everyone that participates will make money.

Were this truly a logical discussion, it would have been over with before it began. There is no logical reason to oppose a playoff system.

No one wants a huge playoff. I have said time and again - do what the lower divisions do. IT doesn’t cheapen anything. How can the game be made any cheaper than the fucking New Mexico Bowl? Please.

Granted - the OSU-Michigan game may get a little less attention, but who the fuck really cares? The Big 10 has not been relevant in years. Just like the Pac-10.

In reality, the Big-10 and the Pac-10 have the clout. None of their decisions are based on logic, or even common sense. Unless you are now saying greed and power is logical.

Anyone else see that the ratings for the championship were down 17% this year? I hope this trend continues for the next two years so that maybe some of these fucks who are simply after money will see that the fans want a playoff.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Granted - the OSU-Michigan game may get a little less attention, but who the fuck really cares?[/quote]

I do. The OSU-Michigan game is more interesting to me than watching OSU in a bowl game against teams I don’t follow. Not that I’m happy about the BCS loss, but I’d rather hear shit for a year from the SEC crowd than from Michigan fans.

You can say the same of the Big 12, Big East and ACC. I think it’s odd that the Big 10 keeps getting slammed for its recent BCS performances while the Big 12 gets a free pass.

They have three title game losses, four BCS bowl game losses by at least 20 points and the conference’s most successful team, Oklahoma, is on a four game BCS losing streak that includes consecutive title game losses (much like Ohio State.) After the SEC, every conference pales.

[quote]vermilion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Granted - the OSU-Michigan game may get a little less attention, but who the fuck really cares?

I do. The OSU-Michigan game is more interesting to me than watching OSU in a bowl game against teams I don’t follow. Not that I’m happy about the BCS loss, but I’d rather hear shit for a year from the SEC crowd than from Michigan fans.[/quote]

But 97.8% of real football fans would rather watch a monkey ride a bike while smoking a cigarette than to watch Big-10 football.

[quote]The Big 10 has not been relevant in years. Just like the Pac-10.

You can say the same of the Big 12, Big East and ACC. I think it’s odd that the Big 10 keeps getting slammed for its recent BCS performances while the Big 12 gets a free pass.

They have three title game losses, four BCS bowl game losses by at least 20 points and the conference’s most successful team, Oklahoma, is on a four game BCS losing streak that includes consecutive title game losses (much like Ohio State.) After the SEC, every conference pales.

[/quote]

My point is that the Big-10 is too full of itself. So is the Pac-10. You don’t see the Big-12 throwing monkey wrenches in everything in a vain attempt to hold on to its past glory. Hell, if the Big 12 was half the prima donna that the big-10/pac-10 is - they would not have absorbed the SWC.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The fact that you think the above tripe is logical saddens me.[/quote]

Here’s a tissue.

This is the last time I’ll say it, but if it were that simple, and that big a slam-dunk, there would’ve been a playoff a long time ago.

The fact that there isn’t should tell you that some interested parties aren’t quite as sure as you are that a playoff would be a good move financially for everybody involved.

Either you get it or you don’t; I can’t make it any more simple than that.

You think there’s no logical reason because you dismiss every legitimate reason for why there’s no playoff as illogical.

[quote]No one wants a huge playoff. I have said time and again - do what the lower divisions do. IT doesn’t cheapen anything. How can the game be made any cheaper than the fucking New Mexico Bowl? Please.

Granted - the OSU-Michigan game may get a little less attention, but who the fuck really cares? The Big 10 has not been relevant in years. Just like the Pac-10.[/quote]

You just contradicted yourself. It doesn’t cheapen anything… except OSU-Michigan.

Now you’re beginning to understand what I mean when I say that the larger the playoff system, the less the regular season means. OSU-UM won’t be the only traditional rivalry that loses some luster if a playoff is put in place. For example, a sixteen team playoff - what the lower divisions do - would’ve dramatically reduced the importance of OU-Texas since both teams would’ve made the field of 16 nearly every year this decade regardless of whether they won in Dallas or not.

Of course, we’re now venturing into the effects a playoff would have, and that’s a whole different topic that I have no further interest in discussing since there isn’t currently a playoff.

Another name for that is rational self-interest, and that is perfectly logical.

RJ, you want a playoff so badly that you keep blundering past very real and legitimate explanations for why there isn’t one currently in place.

You even came up with a potential reason some of the parties involved might not want a playoff (The Pac-10 and Big Ten might lose money and influence) and a potential effect a playoff might have on the regular season that a great many fans find unappealing (OSU-Mich., et al., might lose a lot of relevance).

That’s proof that despite your zeal for a playoff, you can see some potential drawbacks of a playoff to both the powers-that-be and to the viewers, even if you reflexively dismiss them as illogical. That was my entire objective of arguing why a playoff isn’t in place right now.

Now, unless you want me to wave my magic wand and create a playoff out of thin air, I’ve got nothing else to say on the matter.

[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
Anyone else see that the ratings for the championship were down 17% this year? I hope this trend continues for the next two years so that maybe some of these fucks who are simply after money will see that the fans want a playoff.[/quote]

I saw that. This year’s game was down 17% off of last year’s game, which wasn’t a huge draw itself. Who knows how much the ratings have slipped since the USC-Texas Rose Bowl two years ago.

Pro-playoff fans should be dancing in the streets at news of bad ratings. Viewer apathy would do more to help the cause of a playoff than anything else out there.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
k1t0r5 wrote:
Anyone else see that the ratings for the championship were down 17% this year? I hope this trend continues for the next two years so that maybe some of these fucks who are simply after money will see that the fans want a playoff.

I saw that. This year’s game was down 17% off of last year’s game, which wasn’t a huge draw itself. Who knows how much the ratings have slipped since the USC-Texas Rose Bowl two years ago.

Pro-playoff fans should be dancing in the streets at news of bad ratings. Viewer apathy would do more to help the cause of a playoff than anything else out there.
[/quote]

Keep putting Big-10 Teams in the game, and the ratings will continue to drop.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Now, unless you want me to wave my magic wand and create a playoff out of thin air, I’ve got nothing else to say on the matter.[/quote]

You passed that particular point long ago. Too bad I could see it before you did.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/01/02/bcs.future/

The Future of the BCS, by Sports Illustrated’s Stewart Mandel.

An in-depth, rather enlightening piece on college football playoffs.

The one sentence synopsis is that the odds of getting a plus-1 (either form) soon are unlikely, but not zero, while the odds of getting anything more than that are less than zero.

Interesting quotes from the link. Some of the bracketed clarifications are mine, some are Mandel’s.


“We are in the midst of doing a very careful and thorough analysis of the plus-one model,” [SEC and BCS commissioner Mike] Slive told SI.com. “In doing this analysis, we’re looking back on historical data and then thinking ahead to what we know. We need to put together a model that is one that some people will be comfortable with, and see if there is acceptance to it.”

Those people Slive is presumably referring to are Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany, Pac-10 commissioner Tom Hansen and school presidents from both leagues. The two conferences, which, along with their longtime partner, the Rose Bowl, have repeatedly stated their adamant opposition to any postseason modification that might impinge on their arrangement. The fact that their ABC deal is locked in through 2014 will make any such discussions trickier.

“My sense,” said one major bowl executive, “is that Mr. Delany is unconvinced [about a plus-one]. Mr. Hansen is uninterested. Everyone says, ‘Why can’t we get to this yet?’ Until they look at it through each party’s respective self-interest, nobody understands how hard it is to come to an agreement.”

“Whenever my [league’s] presidents have asked me about the positives and negatives of a playoff, I tell them the two positives are [more] money and people will stop yelling and screaming,” said [Big East Commissioner Mike] Tranghese. “And the negative is that the value and meaning of the regular season will be diminished. Playoff proponents who say that’s not true – that’s just pure stupidity.”


The other common argument against a playoff – the one regarding academics – tends to draw more rolled eyes from the public. University presidents have repeatedly stressed their opposition to any postseason arrangement that would interfere with first-semester finals (usually held in mid-December) or would carry the season into a second semester (usually starting in mid-January).

Playoff proponents counter that plenty of other sports, such as baseball and basketball, cross over two semesters (though those sports also account for many of the NCAA’s lowest APR scores), and that Divisions I-AA, II and III all hold their playoffs during the mid-December finals season.

“Don’t insult my intelligence,” said Tranghese. "Don’t compare I-AA football to I-A football. Appalachian State-Delaware, that’s a great game, but they are not operating in the limelight that I-A is. For anyone to think there could be a I-A playoff during exams – the press demands, the television demands, they’re just huge.

“People criticize us for low graduation rates – then those same people want us to play playoffs during exams.”


[That a plus-one is not a playoff] is clear, if for no other reason than the fact that executives for most of the major bowls – which, understandably, are opposed to a full-scale playoff – are supportive of the plus-one concept. Rather than diminishing their games’ importance, as a playoff would, the bowls see a plus-one as a possible upside for their business.


By no means, however, should one view such sentiments [positive reactions about a plue-one model] as a sign that change is imminent. “I haven’t had a direct conversation with Mike [Slive] about [the plus-one], but I’m surprised he’s so interested in going forward,” said Pac-10 commissioner Hansen. “Because the Big Ten and Pac-10 have made it clear we’re not interested in that.”

Delany, the Big Ten commissioner, declined to be interviewed for this story, but recently told Sports Illustrated his conference’s original decision to join the BCS “was not considered the first step toward a playoff, but the last step.”


Slive, a former lawyer who’s brokered his share of negotiations, has presumably factored these and other contingencies [commonly cited problems about a plus-one model] into his ongoing analysis. Nearly all the affected parties will be in the room in Miami in April when the much-anticipated discussion finally takes place.

Following those meetings, the BCS commissioners will bring their own recommendations and conclusions back to their respective conference’s presidents and athletic directors at each league’s annual spring meetings in May and June. Whether any formative change actually gets pushed through will ultimately depend on whether the plus-one proponents can somehow convince the Big Ten and Pac-10 to go along with it.

“There are six [BCS] conferences, and one-third of the six are not favorable to a certain position,” said [Big XII commissioner Don] Beebe. “We have to face the reality of what that means and if there can be any persuasion. How persuasive can our position be?”

Some, like Sun Belt commissioner Wright Waters, are optimistic. “I think there’s a lot of talent in that room right now,” he said. “It’s the best spirit of cooperation that I’ve seen in the room in the long time.”

Others, like Tranghese, remain supportive but cynical. “Even if the details can be worked out, it’s still going to take everybody to agree to do this, and I just don’t think the support is there,” he said. “I may be wrong, but I don’t think I will be.”

Meanwhile, the man who’s most championing the plus-one cause remains coy about its prospects. “There is no model or solution that will satisfy everyone,” said Slive. “What each of us has to do is determine what’s in the long-term best interest of the game, and what’s in the long-term best interest of our conference.”

In other words, can a plus-one encompass both agendas? Plenty of reasonable minds across the sport think it can, but it’s going to require a gigantic dose of compromise by a group of vastly conflicting parties.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
vermilion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Granted - the OSU-Michigan game may get a little less attention, but who the fuck really cares?

I do. The OSU-Michigan game is more interesting to me than watching OSU in a bowl game against teams I don’t follow. Not that I’m happy about the BCS loss, but I’d rather hear shit for a year from the SEC crowd than from Michigan fans.

But 97.8% of real football fans would rather watch a monkey ride a bike while smoking a cigarette than to watch Big-10 football.

The Big 10 has not been relevant in years. Just like the Pac-10.

You can say the same of the Big 12, Big East and ACC. I think it’s odd that the Big 10 keeps getting slammed for its recent BCS performances while the Big 12 gets a free pass.

They have three title game losses, four BCS bowl game losses by at least 20 points and the conference’s most successful team, Oklahoma, is on a four game BCS losing streak that includes consecutive title game losses (much like Ohio State.) After the SEC, every conference pales.

My point is that the Big-10 is too full of itself. So is the Pac-10. You don’t see the Big-12 throwing monkey wrenches in everything in a vain attempt to hold on to its past glory. Hell, if the Big 12 was half the prima donna that the big-10/pac-10 is - they would not have absorbed the SWC.

[/quote]

the Big Ten is full of itself. I’ve leived in that area and they thought the Rose Bowl was above and beyond winning the MNC.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/01/02/bcs.future/

The Future of the BCS, by Sports Illustrated’s Stewart Mandel.

An in-depth, rather enlightening piece on college football playoffs.

The one sentence synopsis is that the odds of getting a plus-1 (either form) soon are unlikely, but not zero, while the odds of getting anything more than that are less than zero.[/quote]

“Whenever my [league’s] presidents have asked me about the positives and negatives of a playoff, I tell them the two positives are [more] money and people will stop yelling and screaming,” said Tranghese. “And the negative is that the value and meaning of the regular season will be diminished. Playoff proponents who say that’s not true – that’s just pure stupidity.”

Money is not the issue, the Big 10 and Pac 10 are the issue.

There are many different formats that would keep the regular season competitive until the end, I suggested one earlier in this thread.

I’ll say it again, let’s just get something started in 2010 without the Big 10 and Pac 10, they will jump aboard shortly afterwards.