I’m really disappointed to see CP3 on the Lakers.
This is going to suck.
Looks like what OKC is doing is the last of a dying breed.
Anyone else disappointed Caron left Dallas for the Clippers?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Anyone else disappointed Caron left Dallas for the Clippers?[/quote]
Yes, and it’s looking like the Mavs let Chandler get away too. I understand they probably would have had to overpay to get Chandler back, but this is probably the last season a Dirk led team has a shot at the title. Feels like Cuban just threw in the towel.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
So if best player is too broad, who was the most dominant player in the NBA last season from a statistical standpoint?
Does anyone here think that player was Kobe?
[/quote]
What does that matter? Teams have different compositions of players and you’re comparing among various positions. Most of the 80 or so games are meaningless. No, I don’t think that player was Kobe. I also think that “best player” is more than statistics. “Best player” is that guy you want in that one game. One and done. It aint LeBron and it damn sure isn’t D-rose (right now). There is a case to be made for Wade.[/quote]
It matters a lot. Statistics are a numerical representation of what actually happened.
The problem with a lot of the pro Kobe as the “best player” arguments is they are accompanied with if statements, prorated stats, and excuses.
“if healthy”
“he put up good numbers relative to the minutes he played”
“he was recovering from past few seasons”
[/quote]
This is exactly why I mentioned those that played and those that are casual fans. It’s an 82 game season my man with most of the teams not in the dialogue for making a run at the championship. They are largely MEANINGLESS games. It’s a REPRESENTATION OF PRODUCTION ONLY, and NOT a representation of the BEST. I think you’re forgetting all the great players of the 80’s and 90’s that were “all regular season” standouts, that never won shit, and are never in the conversation of the top players now.
I can’t even fucking believe I’m in an actual debate with someone who thinks an argument for Kobe actually requires any qualification. His body of work speaks for itself with games won and championships. His production over his career speaks for itself with the stats that you love.
He IS likely on the decline. That’s the reality of his basketball age coming in straight out of high school. But answer my one and done game question. Who do you want on that team? Or do you just want to win the regular season? LOL
If you pick LeBron for a one and done game, based on his record and actual production, you would lose. If you picked D-Rose, based on his record and actual production, you would lose. If you picked Dwight Howard, LOL shame on you. If you picked Durant, you’d have a bettors chance, but you’d lose more than you win. If you picked Wade, it’s a beauty contest over a healthy Kobe at this point in his career but Kobe has so many INTANGIBLES over Wade that can’t be measured in a STAT column - and being able to see and appreciate those intangibles is why a player’s opinion might count.
I don’t give a fuck if he limps thru the season and plays 20 minutes a game and his stats are slashed in half. If his team makes the play offs and he’s fresh and healthy, and all other things being equal (quality of respective teams) I’ll pick Kobe over Wade. I may not make that choice a year or two from now, but right now, I’m choosing Kobe.
whoa
[quote]yvanehtnioj wrote:
whoa[/quote]
whoa x2
I wonder how many people in Vegas are screaming bloody murder after putting obscene amounts of money down on the Lakers
[quote]overstand wrote:
A situation “when it counts” would be something like the Western Conference Semi Finals right?? Where Kobe got swept by the Mavericks?? Clutch right?? There was a time when Kobe was the best player in the league. He is not the best player RIGHT NOW.
And Dwight Howard is a complimentary piece? What sport are you watching?
I don’t care if you were the greatest basketball player to ever live, your opinions are ridiculous. It’s obvious you have not watched NBA basketball the last couple of seasons.
[/quote]
I’ve never been an armchair fan. So no, I’m not glued to the tv watching the games. Mavericks were the better team. Dwight Howard has won nothing and he’s too limited offensively to be “the guy”, he’s the “number two guy” and when he plays with a real number one guy, he might actually win a ring. He aint winning a ring on his own and that’s what I mean with my comment about him.
Anyway, it’s my opinion and opinions are like assholes…but as someone that will probably only watch play off ball next year and perhaps less than half a dozen regular season games, I don’t have a dog in this fight so my will to defend my opinions is weak. None of them motherfuckers pays my bills so I care very little.
[quote]overstand wrote:
A situation “when it counts” would be something like the Western Conference Semi Finals right?? Where Kobe got swept by the Mavericks?? Clutch right?? There was a time when Kobe was the best player in the league. He is not the best player RIGHT NOW.
And Dwight Howard is a complimentary piece? What sport are you watching?
I don’t care if you were the greatest basketball player to ever live, your opinions are ridiculous. It’s obvious you have not watched NBA basketball the last couple of seasons.
[/quote]
And I’m not sure what game you’re watching, but “there was a time when Kobe was the best player in the league” is a bit of an understatement. He will be looked back on as one of the greatest players to play. He’ll make the top 50 list.
Really, you guys are going to argue over who the best players is. It’s all subjective, who cares. Just enjoy the game.
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
He’s #1 no doubt about it.[/quote]
No he’s not.
You sir are the “casual fan”. I played the sport. Still in contact with those that played in the league. He is not regarded in that fashion at the present time although I do certainly understand why the average fan would feel that way. [/quote]
Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen both said they think when it’s all said and done, Lebron will be the best player to have ever played the game.
So much for opinion of the players as a valid argument huh??[/quote]
When “all is said and done” is a different animal than who the best player is now. There is no real argument against LBJ having the biggest upside, hence the statement. But he and his game are presently stagnant. The verdict is out.
[/quote]
The all said and done was Larry Bird.
Scottie Pippen said he was the greatest player ever.
Point being: Using the alleged opinion of the players as an argument doesn’t mean much.
[/quote]
You don’t have a point. And you’re misrepresenting the context of THEIR viewpoint which is, based on his upside, when all is said and done, he can go out as the best of all time (and he can). But he will not unless he wins and he’s going to have to win a few.
I thought the question and disagreement was, who is the best right now? It aint him. And neither Scottie or Larry (to my knowledge) is saying it’s him right now. He’s won nothing. He’s come up short in big games. He even did a Copperfield and disappeared himself at critical stretches and entire games last season. If he’s not hitting his jumper, in play-off ball (where good teams will not just let him buffalo his way up the open court) he is entirely defensible.
So your point is that among informed people (those that actually have played on that stage) that their opinion doesn’t count for much, but the guys at Tnation practicing to work out the best DO?? Huh?
[/quote]
“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to ever play the game. I may go so far as saying LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game.” -Pippen
My point is appealing to an authority figure doesn’t mean anything. You need to back your opinion with solid arguments not be a talking head for others.
I am basing my opinion on what I saw last year and statistical production.
No one is doubting Kobe has been the best player in the last decade but he’s clearly in decline.
in 2010-2011:
He wasn’t a top 5 scorer and couldn’t play heavy minutes
His team arguably squeaked by a Hornets team in the first round
His team was ass raped by the Mavericks in Round 2.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
So if best player is too broad, who was the most dominant player in the NBA last season from a statistical standpoint?
Does anyone here think that player was Kobe?
[/quote]
What does that matter? Teams have different compositions of players and you’re comparing among various positions. Most of the 80 or so games are meaningless. No, I don’t think that player was Kobe. I also think that “best player” is more than statistics. “Best player” is that guy you want in that one game. One and done. It aint LeBron and it damn sure isn’t D-rose (right now). There is a case to be made for Wade.[/quote]
It matters a lot. Statistics are a numerical representation of what actually happened.
The problem with a lot of the pro Kobe as the “best player” arguments is they are accompanied with if statements, prorated stats, and excuses.
“if healthy”
“he put up good numbers relative to the minutes he played”
“he was recovering from past few seasons”
[/quote]
This is exactly why I mentioned those that played and those that are casual fans. It’s an 82 game season my man with most of the teams not in the dialogue for making a run at the championship. They are largely MEANINGLESS games. It’s a REPRESENTATION OF PRODUCTION ONLY, and NOT a representation of the BEST. I think you’re forgetting all the great players of the 80’s and 90’s that were “all regular season” standouts, that never won shit, and are never in the conversation of the top players now.
I can’t even fucking believe I’m in an actual debate with someone who thinks an argument for Kobe actually requires any qualification. His body of work speaks for itself with games won and championships. His production over his career speaks for itself with the stats that you love.
He IS likely on the decline. That’s the reality of his basketball age coming in straight out of high school. But answer my one and done game question. Who do you want on that team? Or do you just want to win the regular season? LOL
If you pick LeBron for a one and done game, based on his record and actual production, you would lose. If you picked D-Rose, based on his record and actual production, you would lose. If you picked Dwight Howard, LOL shame on you. If you picked Durant, you’d have a bettors chance, but you’d lose more than you win. If you picked Wade, it’s a beauty contest over a healthy Kobe at this point in his career but Kobe has so many INTANGIBLES over Wade that can’t be measured in a STAT column - and being able to see and appreciate those intangibles is why a player’s opinion might count.
I don’t give a fuck if he limps thru the season and plays 20 minutes a game and his stats are slashed in half. If his team makes the play offs and he’s fresh and healthy, and all other things being equal (quality of respective teams) I’ll pick Kobe over Wade. I may not make that choice a year or two from now, but right now, I’m choosing Kobe. [/quote]
Tell me, who would you want on your team on the last play of the game when the OTHER team has the ball?
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Really, you guys are going to argue over who the best players is. It’s all subjective, who cares. Just enjoy the game.[/quote]
lol
Having flashbacks of the MLB thread and last years NBA thread?
But yeah I think I’m ready to drop this.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
By the way you also manipulated the conversation by introducing trades and relative value. Of course those trades are easy. But they do not speak to who the best player is right this moment.
You first have to define “best player”. To me, “best player” is the guy I want on my team for a must win, take it all game. At that position, right now, it’s a healthy Kobe and I think Wade is there with him, but I like Kobe’s psychological make-up and experience in big games better. He’s got a killer mentality on the court and he’s a smarter player. D-Rose is not yet in that conversation. LeBron’s body of work speaks for itself in big games so it’s not him. Dwight is a complimentary piece of a win-it-all team, not the focal point.
To illustrate the folly of guiding this argument by regular season production, D-Rose had a marvelous year, is a marvelous talent and his upside is tremendous. But based on his performance down the stretch in the play-offs, are you taking him over a healthy Kobe in that MUST WIN game? If you did you’d be a fool. Now, if I were building a team for years to come, would I take D-Rose straight up right now over Kobe? Of course. That’s a simple choice. In Sport, youth counts.
Whenever there is a legitimate GOAT discussion among informed parties, the discussion always centers around championships and production in big games. They don’t sit around talking about who the fuck the GOAT of the “regular season” was.[/quote]
Well, I actually started the conversation but you and I are basically in agreement on most of what’s been written. I’m looking at it more from the bottom-up approach - that being, Durant, Wade, etc for Kobe would be a fair deal because I can make a team for the future. Kobe has reached has peak, we don’t know about the other guys. Other than that, I don’t think anything else needs to be said about Kobe.
On LeBron, why is it okay to bash him for not being a great player because he hasn’t won a ring yet? He’s been to the Finals twice before already, the first time being him by himself doing everything. No one, even Kobe has done that before. The second time round was him with his Miami buddies and hey, they got beat by an elite team that swept the Lakers and had a leader who had one of the best playoff performances in recent memory. And that was in the first year that Miami team played together. Everyone has them winning this upcoming season.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.[/quote]
I don’t know… in recent memory when can you remember David Stern going back on a decision?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.[/quote]
I don’t know… in recent memory when can you remember David Stern going back on a decision?[/quote]
I was just thinking about what the lockout was actually about and how the proposed Paul trade did NOT seem hypocritical of the need for competitiveness, one of the key issues in the lockout negotiations. Lamar and Gasol were purported to be off to different teams. They were spreading talent. Who gives a shit if the deal would have made the Lakers better anyway. Owners and GMs should be concerned about their own ability to get players and making sure every team is on a level playing field.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.[/quote]
I don’t know… in recent memory when can you remember David Stern going back on a decision?[/quote]
I was just thinking about what the lockout was actually about and how the proposed Paul trade did NOT seem hypocritical of the need for competitiveness, one of the key issues in the lockout negotiations. Lamar and Gasol were purported to be off to different teams. They were spreading talent. Who gives a shit if the deal would have made the Lakers better anyway. Owners and GMs should be concerned about their own ability to get players and making sure every team is on a level playing field.
[/quote]
If the NBA was going to veto a trade they should have Vetoed the first Gasol trade where the lakers sent over a ball boy, old washing machine and a half time slam dunk trampoline for Pau Gasol.
I still think the trade goes through… The NBA/Stern are basically screwing over the Hornets because they wont be getting anything at the end this situation and will still lose Paul.
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.[/quote]
I don’t know… in recent memory when can you remember David Stern going back on a decision?[/quote]
I was just thinking about what the lockout was actually about and how the proposed Paul trade did NOT seem hypocritical of the need for competitiveness, one of the key issues in the lockout negotiations. Lamar and Gasol were purported to be off to different teams. They were spreading talent. Who gives a shit if the deal would have made the Lakers better anyway. Owners and GMs should be concerned about their own ability to get players and making sure every team is on a level playing field.
[/quote]
If the NBA was going to veto a trade they should have Vetoed the first Gasol trade where the lakers sent over a ball boy, old washing machine and a half time slam dunk trampoline for Pau Gasol.
I still think the trade goes through… The NBA/Stern are basically screwing over the Hornets because they wont be getting anything at the end this situation and will still lose Paul.[/quote]
IIRC they were able to veto the trade because the Hornets are run by the League while Memphis isn’t. He might just get re-traded to a non-major market.
Also backlash was the reason for nixing the trade. Either way Stern will face backlash
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Fuck, Stern didn’t need to do that. Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were key players for the Lakers. I think they probably nixed the deal as a preemptive to stop the Lakers from acquiring CP3 and Dwight. But on the fundamentals of the deal, Paul to the Lakers doesn’t automatically make them favorites, considering they lose two important players and a disruption in chemistry. Plus, I bet Kobe didn’t even want the trade to happen anyway. The Mike Brown hire illustrated how Kupchak and Buss are all to ready to make big moves without referral from the King on their chess team.[/quote]
the backlash that the NBA/Stern are going to receive over this is going to be HUGE. I bet the trade still happens but its just “on hold” right now.[/quote]
I don’t know… in recent memory when can you remember David Stern going back on a decision?[/quote]
I was just thinking about what the lockout was actually about and how the proposed Paul trade did NOT seem hypocritical of the need for competitiveness, one of the key issues in the lockout negotiations. Lamar and Gasol were purported to be off to different teams. They were spreading talent. Who gives a shit if the deal would have made the Lakers better anyway. Owners and GMs should be concerned about their own ability to get players and making sure every team is on a level playing field.
[/quote]
If the NBA was going to veto a trade they should have Vetoed the first Gasol trade where the lakers sent over a ball boy, old washing machine and a half time slam dunk trampoline for Pau Gasol.
I still think the trade goes through… The NBA/Stern are basically screwing over the Hornets because they wont be getting anything at the end this situation and will still lose Paul.[/quote]
Is it too late to get that trampoline back?