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741

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Wrong. “Team sport” notwithstanding, this is the one team sport where you need a superstar to win. Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.

This is a league invariably driven by stars, both from a winning standpoint, and attendance. It’s why teams are willing to mortgage to the ceiling to acquire one.

742

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

stephen a smith brought up a point that i completely agree on. ill fix your statement a little bit, “lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet he acts like he’s the the best player and celebrates as if he has already won” hope you understand what i mean.

He’s criticised so much because he did alot of unnecessary stuff that put him in the spotlight (aka the decision). if he just stayed humble, thanked cleveland for their support over the years and just leave for miami graciously, he probably wouldnt get as much heat as he’s getting now. just bad decisions perhaps due to immaturity. hopefully he has learned some humility from the experience and that’s when i think the criticism will stop.

[/quote]

good post.

but immaturity goes with the territory. it’s best summed up by the people around him guiding him and who he accepts direction from. his high school buddy was running that dumb shit.

dumb

he HAD good people around him and he has access to good people, and good advice.

you aint the king of shit until you win something.

743

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.
[/quote]

Detroit Pistons 2004

744

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^fighters are born, not made. James and Howard are paper tigers and there’s nothing they can do to change that. They may both get a ring(s), but it’ll be as 2nd bananas.[/quote]

A lot of people said the same about Magic Johnson after his epic awful series against BOS (obviously I don’t remember myself, I have just read about it and seen a couple of the old games on NBATV or ESPN Classic or somewhere).

A lot of people said the same thing about Dirk, more recently.

I’m not defending LBJ’s collapse in last year’s playoffs, I’m just saying it’s too early to judge.

Dwight’s problems are more game-related and definable than LBJ’s. A) He needs someone to pass him the ball in his spot to be effective, since he’s a C, and that pass itself is hard to do in crunch time. B) He is a bad enough foul shooter that if he gets the ball in the post in a tight game, he’ll just be fouled anyway and not given a chance to make a play.[/quote]

Magic won it all in college. So, wrong.

LBJ is 9 years into the league. It’s not “too early to tell”. Thus far, he has come up wanting in the 4th quarter of big games.

To change that, he will need to change his performance, put a team on his back in a critical time, in a critical game, and win it. Given his current team’s composition (wade, bosh and the complimentary parts), I believe such a command performance is unlikely. He’s perfectly content to let Wade finish and take big shots.

Fuck, even best 2nd-fiddle-ever Scottie Pippen thru a fucking hissy-fit when a final play shot was set up for Kukoch instead of him.

745

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

3rd, James has been in the league 9 years now and his own teammates suggest that Wade be their closer. That’s really all anyone here needs to know. For whatever he is or isn’t, he IS NOT a killer. He point blank doesn’t have the mental makeup for it. In the biggest moments, he looks to someone else instead of stepping up. Nothing wrong with that, but he’s no fighter, and he’ll never be more than the 2nd best player on a championship team. Wade is their closer.
[/quote]

This.

The above is irrefutable based on performance thus far. If you believe a guy 9 years into the league is suddenly going to become someone he hasn’t been, I have land to sell you under the Brooklyn Bridge.

This of course does not preclude him from winning a championship. But at this point, him winning a championship, unless he puts a team on his back and carries them at critical moments, just will not allow me, in my mind, to put him in the same category as MJ.

746

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

3rd, James has been in the league 9 years now and his own teammates suggest that Wade be their closer. That’s really all anyone here needs to know. For whatever he is or isn’t, he IS NOT a killer. He point blank doesn’t have the mental makeup for it. In the biggest moments, he looks to someone else instead of stepping up. Nothing wrong with that, but he’s no fighter, and he’ll never be more than the 2nd best player on a championship team. Wade is their closer.
[/quote]

This.

The above is irrefutable based on performance thus far. If you believe a guy 9 years into the league is suddenly going to become someone he hasn’t been, I have land to sell you under the Brooklyn Bridge.

This of course does not preclude him from winning a championship. But at this point, him winning a championship, unless he puts a team on his back and carries them at critical moments, just will not allow me, in my mind, to put him in the same category as MJ.[/quote]

The point was made that Dirk Nowitzki was seen as a #2 parading around as a #1 before last year. After several failures of course and the label of being soft. He was in the league for 13 years before he won.

747

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.
[/quote]

Detroit Pistons 2004[/quote]

Even if you believe that Billups was not a superstar (I do not, he was one of the top guards in the league) you’re not refuting my point. I realize you think you’re responding to my rhetorical question, but the point that the league is driven by superstars, and that one star can be the difference between winning it all or not, is irrefutable by history. it’s not my opinion, it’s a fact.

if you want to argue by exception, that’s weak. otherwise, you just answered my rhetorical, and opinions can differ on billups. i say he was an elite guard.

748

Yeah I was just answering you’re rhetorical, felt like being a smart ass heh heh.

I agree the league is run by stars.

It’s why I think Orlando should just make one last run before Dwight leaves. Receiving a bulk of decent players will just lead to pointless mediocrity and hurt your chances in the draft. Better off going back into the lottery and hoping you draft a star.

749

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Wrong. “Team sport” notwithstanding, this is the one team sport where you need a superstar to win. Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.

This is a league invariably driven by stars, both from a winning standpoint, and attendance. It’s why teams are willing to mortgage to the ceiling to acquire one. [/quote]

No, you misinterpreted what I said. I’m not insinuating the league isn’t run by elite players, we’re talking about ‘instinct’ here. You’re saying LeBron has no ‘instinct’ and all I’m saying is he doesn’t even need it, whatever it means, to win championships.

750

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Wrong. “Team sport” notwithstanding, this is the one team sport where you need a superstar to win. Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.

This is a league invariably driven by stars, both from a winning standpoint, and attendance. It’s why teams are willing to mortgage to the ceiling to acquire one. [/quote]

No, you misinterpreted what I said. I’m not insinuating the league isn’t run by elite players, we’re talking about ‘instinct’ here. You’re saying LeBron has no ‘instinct’ and all I’m saying is he doesn’t even need it, whatever it means, to win championships. [/quote]

you’re absolutely right…that he doesn’t need it to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. but i think we were talking about how lebron james is as a player, and whether he can be deemed as one of the best, not only elite, but one of the best. and to be one of the best, aka michael jordan,kobe etc. you HAVE to have that instinct. but you’re still right that you don’t have to have the instinct to win championships. just get on a good team, that’s all.

751

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

you aint the king of shit until you win something. [/quote]

Yeah but what are you going to say when he wins not one…not two…not three…not four…not five…not six…but seven championships?

752

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Good lord, Smith and Bayless have to be 2 of the most irritating guys on the planet. Couldn’t watch more than a minute of either video.[/quote]

that’s why i said they were funny. they squabble like two old women. But imo, what they speak the truth. they don’t hold back for fear of public backlash or whatever, and says what needs to be said. (:
[/quote]

Yeah they do say whatever they want. They are just wrong like 65% of the time, or at least Skip is.[/quote]

why’d you say so? curious to hear your opinion on what they say. i definitely pay more attention to what stephen says though…he’s louder and he’s talking like 80% of the time. haha

753

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Personally, I think ‘Instinct’ is an overrated and overused word in basketball. People said Dirk had no instinct and because you obviously can’t acquire ‘instinct’ [/sarcasm] Dirk would never be an elite player. Well, Dirk just came off one of the best and most clutch playoff performances of all-time.

Last time I checked basketball is a team sport, you have 4 other players on the court with you. Just make a bucket when it’s your turn. Maybe ‘instinct’ is better applied to non-team sports like tennis where you need certain inherent attributes to succeed and win.

Lebron is the most criticised player in the game because he hasn’t won a championship yet. I’m pretty sure everyone agrees with that and when he finally wins one all the attacks on his game will disappear.

[/quote]

Wrong. “Team sport” notwithstanding, this is the one team sport where you need a superstar to win. Name the last NBA championship team to win without a superstar.

This is a league invariably driven by stars, both from a winning standpoint, and attendance. It’s why teams are willing to mortgage to the ceiling to acquire one. [/quote]

No, you misinterpreted what I said. I’m not insinuating the league isn’t run by elite players, we’re talking about ‘instinct’ here. You’re saying LeBron has no ‘instinct’ and all I’m saying is he doesn’t even need it, whatever it means, to win championships. [/quote]

you’re absolutely right…that he doesn’t need it to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. but i think we were talking about how lebron james is as a player, and whether he can be deemed as one of the best, not only elite, but one of the best. and to be one of the best, aka michael jordan,kobe etc. you HAVE to have that instinct. but you’re still right that you don’t have to have the instinct to win championships. just get on a good team, that’s all.
[/quote]

Yeah but man, what is instinct? From what I can gather it’s the ability to make a play or a set of plays at crunch time. Disregarding the fact that LeBron has done that numerous, numerous times (just not in the Finals, YET) why do people have to disrespect him saying he’ll NEVER be able to shine when it matters most. As long as he has ‘LeBron skills’ he’ll have the opportunity. He’s not mentally retarded!

754

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

you aint the king of shit until you win something. [/quote]

Yeah but what are you going to say when he wins not one…not two…not three…not four…not five…not six…but seven championships?[/quote]

i think something we’ve all agreed on is that lebron has boatloads of talent. right now, we’re all just waiting for that day to happen…if it comes :wink:

755

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Yeah LeBron will never be clutch…EVER. He will ALWAYS be the second best player on a championship team. He will NEVER shine under the spotlight…

All it takes is 1 second and 1 shot to reverse all the bad perceptions about the guy.[/quote]

This is basically what I was trying to say 5 pages ago.

Look at these stats for last season, including playoffs:

In clutch situations, Lebron averaged 4 less points than Kobe on 11 less shots. In 08-09 and 09-10, Lebron led Kobe outright in clutch scoring (while also shooting a better fg%).

Since 96-97, Lebron has been the most efficient game winning shooter in the league with 23 makes in 69 attempts (33%), while Kobe ranks 8th (36 of 115) behind Lebron, Ray Allen, Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter, Steve Francis, Damon Stoudamire and Nick Van Exel.

If you count only career playoff game winners, Lebron is 5/12 (41%) while Kobe is 7/28 (28%).

^^From 82games.com

Lebron was clearly “the man” vs. the Bulls in last years playoffs. He also carried the Cavs to the Finals with fucking Mo Williams as his 2nd best player. I don’t disagree he played like shit vs the Mavs (and I was damn glad for it), but to call him unclutch/choker/paper tiger is false and not supported by the stats. MJ missed a shitload more game winners than he ever made, but we’ve all seen Jordan over Ehlo so many times we’re convinced he never missed.

I am confident Lebron will not retire a choker, he is going to have a ton more opportunities to get his signature moment.

756

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also, I’ll believe til the day I for that the NBA fixed the 2006 finals. That series was stolen from Dallas.
[/quote]

This is astonishing to me. How can you care about a league if you believe it’s fixed? What’s the point?

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
James can obviously do some ridiculous things out there, but so can several guys. I think we’ve seen his ceiling to be honest with you. He’ll never be more than what he is.[/quote]

I dunno, a lot of guys have changed their game past age 27. I think LBJ is having is best season yet as a pro, 30/8/7 with 55% shooting? God damn. Those numbers look similar to past years EXCEPT that shooting number is goddamn ridiculous. Centers shoot that high, not SFs.

We may have seen the best of him, or we may not have. I’m not willing to say definitively yet.

757

So how long will Orlando have to maintain the third best record in the league for Dwight to realize his best title shot this year might be with them?

758

[quote]scj119 wrote:
So how long will Orlando have to maintain the third best record in the league for Dwight to realize his best title shot this year might be with them?[/quote]

I think you mean management.

759

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Also, I’ll believe til the day I for that the NBA fixed the 2006 finals. That series was stolen from Dallas.
[/quote]

This is astonishing to me. How can you care about a league if you believe it’s fixed? What’s the point?

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
James can obviously do some ridiculous things out there, but so can several guys. I think we’ve seen his ceiling to be honest with you. He’ll never be more than what he is.[/quote]

I dunno, a lot of guys have changed their game past age 27. I think LBJ is having is best season yet as a pro, 30/8/7 with 55% shooting? God damn. Those numbers look similar to past years EXCEPT that shooting number is goddamn ridiculous. Centers shoot that high, not SFs.

We may have seen the best of him, or we may not have. I’m not willing to say definitively yet.[/quote]

Is that a joke? Donaghey [sp?] ADMITTED he threw games, and the tapes back up his claims. ANYTHING with large amounts of money on the line has, can and will be corrupted by the impurity of man.

I’d probably agree that James is having his best season, but his fg% is due to him not taking as many careless 3’s. Also, Marion was shooting close to that in his prime while also grabbing like 12 boards a game. It happens, just not often.

760

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Yeah LeBron will never be clutch…EVER. He will ALWAYS be the second best player on a championship team. He will NEVER shine under the spotlight…

All it takes is 1 second and 1 shot to reverse all the bad perceptions about the guy.[/quote]

This is basically what I was trying to say 5 pages ago.

Look at these stats for last season, including playoffs:

In clutch situations, Lebron averaged 4 less points than Kobe on 11 less shots. In 08-09 and 09-10, Lebron led Kobe outright in clutch scoring (while also shooting a better fg%).

Since 96-97, Lebron has been the most efficient game winning shooter in the league with 23 makes in 69 attempts (33%), while Kobe ranks 8th (36 of 115) behind Lebron, Ray Allen, Gilbert Arenas, Vince Carter, Steve Francis, Damon Stoudamire and Nick Van Exel.

If you count only career playoff game winners, Lebron is 5/12 (41%) while Kobe is 7/28 (28%).

^^From 82games.com

Lebron was clearly “the man” vs. the Bulls in last years playoffs. He also carried the Cavs to the Finals with fucking Mo Williams as his 2nd best player. I don’t disagree he played like shit vs the Mavs (and I was damn glad for it), but to call him unclutch/choker/paper tiger is false and not supported by the stats. MJ missed a shitload more game winners than he ever made, but we’ve all seen Jordan over Ehlo so many times we’re convinced he never missed.

I am confident Lebron will not retire a choker, he is going to have a ton more opportunities to get his signature moment.[/quote]

The difference is James’ game winners were in [mostly] much less meaningful games. When the pressure rose, he looked to someone else. All I know is that if the entire league [you know, the guys on the floor] is saying Kobe’s the most clutch player out there, I’m listening. And, if “the best player in the game” is throwing jump passes and landing before he gets the ball off against a guy he has half a foot on, it’s safe to say he’s a choker.