NBA Free Agency/Offseason

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81

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Game 7 4th-quarter play-by-play: Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers - NBA Play-By-Play - June 17, 2010 | ESPN

Control+F: and search for Bynum. It won’t take you long to search the results.

Andrew Bynum got 4 rebounds, 1 block, committed 5 fouls and 3 turnovers, missed 1 shot and made 2 shots, in the 4th-quarter… of all 7 games combined. He was a total non-factor. Difference-maker? Please. He wasn’t even out on the court in crunch-time. He had a real nice Game 2. Other than that, he didn’t do jack.

I’m pretty sure Parker and any warm body at center would have contributed a bit more…[/quote]

You just admitted you only saw him a couple of games per year and the playoffs. Enough with the fucking statistics!!! Again, this is basketball; not baseball where everything is dominated by statistics. You’re not making your point any better by continuing to throw up statistics.

Bynum was obviously hurt (again). A lot of what he does doesn’t show up in the box score. A healthy Bynum WAS dominant early going in the season. You really know not of what you speak. So please stop speaking about it like your an expert on Bynum when you haven’t even really watched him. His playoff performance (hurt) looks nothing like how he is when he is healthy. And I disagree with your top 20 list of “better than Bynum”.

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[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
And you’re right about the Bynum-McDyess-O’Neal thing. It’s tough for me to find a comparison for Bynum, simply because he just doesn’t have the athleticism that almost every other dominant big man has or had. I think the best comparison is a younger Ilgauskas, before he became more of a shooter.
[/quote]

Dude, you are so fucking wrong about Bynum it’s starting to piss me off. He ain’t no fucking young Ilgauskas. Again, you ADMITTED you haven’t watched him play most of the year. Taking what you saw from the playoffs does not make you an expert.

Hell, remember game 2 of the Celtics Lakers finals? Bynum WAS dominant. Way more than what a freakin young Ilgauskas would do. And if you come back with a post comparing their “stats” I’m going to reach through this forum thread and strangle you ;0

Bynum is more a traditional true center. Very large, good hands, good feet, is a monster in the paint. When he’s healthy he’s actually closer to a young Shaq (just not as overwhelming). You keep talking about athleticism like it’s the new sexy thing in the league and if you’re not some high flyer your shit.

Do you know why scouts and GMS fly all over the place to see potential players in person multiple times? Because stats and watching a few games here or there does not give you an accurate picture of a player.

83

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
One of the cardinal rules of the NBA is never trade small for big.

Lol, why is this a rule? Sure, if they are of equal ability, the big man is more valuable because they are more scarce. But if Miami offers Dwayne Wade for Chris Bosh (assuming both are signed to identical contracts), Toronto would be idiotic to turn that down. Would Portland turn down Deron Williams for LaMarcus Aldridge?
[/quote]

You really don’t know as much as you think you know. I would not necessarily jump through hoops over Dwayne Wade for Chris Bosh under every circumstance. Dwayne Wade is not 30 times better than Chris Bosh to ignore the rest of the make up of my team. There are obviously some scenarios where you would trade big for small but the talent has to be a strong outweigher in this scenario. Like I said before, you would make a crappy GM with everything your spouting off on this thread. You don’t look at the rest of a team’s makeup when you announce all of these wonderful trade scenarios. Many are thankful that your only spouting off your half baked ideas here and not joining the ranks of the NBA GM. My God.

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[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
One of the cardinal rules of the NBA is never trade small for big.[/quote]

Lol, why is this a rule? Sure, if they are of equal ability, the big man is more valuable because they are more scarce. But if Miami offers Dwayne Wade for Chris Bosh (assuming both are signed to identical contracts), Toronto would be idiotic to turn that down. Would Portland turn down Deron Williams for LaMarcus Aldridge?

You rarely see small for big because teams covetously hoard big men with potential because of the hope of a dominant franchise center. But the vast majority of these guys never pan out. So Portland takes Bowie over Jordan, and then turns right around and repeats the mistake with Oden over Durant.

And you’re right about the Bynum-McDyess-O’Neal thing. It’s tough for me to find a comparison for Bynum, simply because he just doesn’t have the athleticism that almost every other dominant big man has or had. I think the best comparison is a younger Ilgauskas, before he became more of a shooter.
[/quote]

You keep talking about Bynum’s lack of impact. HE WAS PLAYING WITH A TORN MENISCUS. His size alone bothered the Celtics around the rim. How can you keep ignoring that? I’m sorry man, but the Lakers DO NOT make a Parker for Bynum trade. You’re using ridiculous comparisons to make your point. Aldridge is a 3/4. He plays the 5 in Portland out of necessity. When I said you don’t trade small for big I thought it was understood that that excluded game changers for contributors. Also, Bynum is way more athletic than you give him credit for. It seems like you hadn’t seen him play before these playoffs. When healthy he runs the floor, gets boards and lobs well above the rim and is developing a pretty solid low post game. Someone else has already covered the Jordan/Bowie Oden/Durant thing, so I’ll leave that alone. And, like Greg said, a big is a center, not just someone who happens to be tall.

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He’s making a strong opinion on a subject that he has very little information on (that he admitted) and he’s looking stupid in the process.

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[quote]tmoney1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

That sucks about Bosh’s comments. I thought he was cooler than that. Oh yeah, I just got back from CO man. It’s gorgeous out there![/quote]

Yeah didn’t think he was like that, but oh well. Glad you liked it out in CO, did you go to Estes Park again with your GF?[/quote]

Yeah man, we spent 2 nights in Boulder, one in Ft. Collins, one in Estes and one in Denver. It was awesome. Hope all is well on your end homey. Be easy. Also, I really like that more people on T-Nation are getting involved on talking ball. It used to be pretty slim pickins around here. Glad everyone [even the trolls] have something to say. [/quote]

Awesome man, I’m about 25 miles from Ft. Collins. Let me know next time you’re here and maybe we can get together.

Completely agree re: more people talking ball. Usually it was just me, you and a couple of other guys. The first three NBA Playoff threads were pretty slim in terms of discussion and reads. This year blew the top off as we filled two threads with almost 2000 posts. Let’s do it bigger next year!
[/quote]

For sure man. We’re actually seriously considering moving to Boulder. Got to get some stuff figured out first, but I’ll definitely keep you posted.[/quote]

Wow, sweet! No more H-Town huh? Yeah if you get to Boulder we’ll def have to catch some Nuggets games and talk shop.
[/quote]

I’m down man.

87

This signing would make me happy as a Lakers fan!

Kobe, Lakers want Raja Bell in free agency
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/kobe-lakers-want-raja-bell-in-free-agency.php

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Damn if the Lakers add Bell to Artest+Kobe that is a scary defensive trio right there, that’s a hard shell to crack just to get access to a lane defended by Bynum/Gasol…

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I’m getting a woody just thinking about it! If the Lakers pull of that trade and do nothing else, they will definitely three peat!

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[quote]randman wrote:
This signing would make me happy as a Lakers fan!

Kobe, Lakers want Raja Bell in free agency

[/quote]

From that article:

ROFL

But seriously, that`d be awesome. So are they going to try to keep Fisher AND sign Bell, or are they thinking he replaces Fisher, since both would have similar roles on the team anyway? Having both would be pretty awesome, seeing as how despite Fisher’s good D , 3 point shooting and ability to draw fouls, he sometimes finds himself in foul trouble early. With Him coming off the bench this wouldn’t be a problem.

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No, Fish will be back. Instead of making $5 mil he’ll make like $2 mil and come off the bench and still be one of the Laker leaders. It would be Fish and Bell. Farmar is definitely gone by mutual interest. He hates the triangle, wants the ball in his hands more in a traditional offense and wants to make more money. The Lakers organization doesn’t want him back either.

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[quote]red04 wrote:
To be fair, this story has been covered/recovered so many times, and it is abundantly clear that basically every GM in the league would’ve made the same choice given Portland’s team, both times. [/quote]

I disagree. Many at the time of the draft thought Durant was a better player, had a more NBA-ready game, and was a much safer pick due to myriad concerns about Oden’s ability to stay healthy. My opinion counts for nothing, but I was among them.

[quote]
They already had Drexler in the Jordan draft, and they already had B.Roy. They were staring down prospective big men(in Oden’s case people were using Russell’s name, you don’t pass that up).[/quote]

So by now, after so many times this similar mistake has been made, haven’t we learned that picking big men and crossing our fingers that they will stay healthy and/or magically develop certain skillsets is probably a bad idea?

Not even comparable. Griffin was clearly the best college player and clearly had skills that would translate immediately to the NBA game. Durant was clearly the best college player and clearly could step in immediately as a scorer. Also, Griffin did not have anything that indicated he would have injury problems; he got caught with a fluke injury. Oden had major warning signs that indicated he would have trouble staying healthy, and he was nowhere near the dominant player that Durant was. Ditto for Bowie.

Exactly. How often does the JaMarcus Russell/Vince Young (and now Tim Tebow), “he’s got all the tools, all we need to do is teach him how to be an NFL QB” guy work out?

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[quote]randman wrote:
No, Fish will be back. Instead of making $5 mil he’ll make like $2 mil and come off the bench and still be one of the Laker leaders. It would be Fish and Bell. Farmar is definitely gone by mutual interest. He hates the triangle, wants the ball in his hands more in a traditional offense and wants to make more money. The Lakers organization doesn’t want him back either.[/quote]

Hopefully that all works out.

EDIT New Big Baby avy wutwut.

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
You keep talking about Bynum’s lack of impact. HE WAS PLAYING WITH A TORN MENISCUS.[/quote]

I’m not saying Bynum’s a terrible guy and it’s all his fault that he’s hurt. But the bottom line is that he’s always hurt. Go back to the scouting reports when he got drafted and they talk about how he didn’t come on the NBA radar until late because he was dealing with knee problems.

Guys who are 7 feet tall don’t generally get healthier and more explosive as they get older.

I don’t think he’s terrible, but we have people talking about how he has the potential to be dominant when, almost without exception, every single other dominant big man was already dominant by age 22, and for many of them, it was only their 1st or 2nd year in the league.

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[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

Also, Griffin did not have anything that indicated he would have injury problems; he got caught with a fluke injury. Oden had major warning signs that indicated he would have trouble staying healthy, and he was nowhere near the dominant player that Durant was. Ditto for Bowie.
[/quote]

The only injury Oden had was his wrist as a high school senior. Also, Oden was an absolute BEAST on the defensive end that was already showing very mature post up game in half a season of college ball.

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[quote]randman wrote:
Dude, you are so fucking wrong about Bynum it’s starting to piss me off. He ain’t no fucking young Ilgauskas. Again, you ADMITTED you haven’t watched him play most of the year. Taking what you saw from the playoffs does not make you an expert. [/quote]

I never claimed to be an expert. But you are acting like I have seen him play one time while you are at every game taking copious scouting notes and reviewing video. I’ve seen him play a few games per season and the playoffs for the past few seasons; I’ve probably seen him play 30-40 games. Sure, I don’t know everything about him, but I’ve seen enough to make an opinion.

[quote]
Hell, remember game 2 of the Celtics Lakers finals? Bynum WAS dominant. Way more than what a freakin young Ilgauskas would do. And if you come back with a post comparing their “stats” I’m going to reach through this forum thread and strangle you ;0[/quote]

Get ready to strangle:
Bynum, Game 2: 21 points, 6 boards
Big Z, '98 Game 2 vs Pacers: 25 points, 10 boards… that was in his rookie year, btw, while Bynum has now been in year 5.

And obviously basketball goes far beyond the box score. I didn’t see that Big Z game. Maybe his point guards made incredible passes and all he had to do was lay the ball in to go 10-14 from the field and maybe all 10 boards fell in his lap. Maybe he didn’t play defense for shit.

But you act like Bynum dropping 21, having a mediocre rebounding game and playing some very good defense around the rim makes him somehow different then virtually every other young big guy with talent who pulls a big game or two out of his ass every now and then.

LOL. I love how you go on and on calling me an idiot in this thread when you just compared Bynum to a young Shaq. When Shaq was a 20-year old rookie he was an All-Star who dropped 23 and 14 and blocked 3.5 (!) shots per game. Shaq was an All-Star every single year of his career until this past season.

Bynum is nowhere near on the same planet as Shaq.

I know you hate all this statistics and numbers, but at some point you actually have to start producing something on a consistent basis rather than just living off potential. Bynum’s a fine player, but virtually ever single other dominant big man was better at age 22 and Bynum has had the advantage of being in the league for 5 years already.

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[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

Also, Griffin did not have anything that indicated he would have injury problems; he got caught with a fluke injury. Oden had major warning signs that indicated he would have trouble staying healthy, and he was nowhere near the dominant player that Durant was. Ditto for Bowie.
[/quote]

The only injury Oden had was his wrist as a high school senior. Also, Oden was an absolute BEAST on the defensive end that was already showing very mature post up game in half a season of college ball.[/quote]

Other than the fact that one of his legs was significantly longer than the other and then he ran up and down the court like an old man and had some serious stamina issues that limited his minutes.

As for his post-up game, here’s Draft Express scouting report:
“Whatâ??s been most concerning so far is the almost complete lack of fluidity that Oden is displaying on the offensive end. Heâ??s very mechanical in the post, being highly predictable with his moves and not looking flexible enough to react to what defenses are throwing at him and counter with any kind of polish. Looking at the way he is scoring his points, itâ??s hard to get any kind of feeling that what heâ??s doing at the college level will fly in the NBA in the least bit, as his entire game is based off overpowering shorter, weaker and less athletic opponents and scoring almost exclusively within 5 feet of the hoop. At age 18, he still has plenty of room to grow as a player, meaning heâ??ll likely learn how to use his body better in the post, get better at taking the ball up strong to the basket, and improve his footwork-- but there are certain traits in an athlete that are just innate, and we arenâ??t seeing them at all from him so far.”

Meanwhile, there was little to no question that Durant would step in and be an impact scorer immediately in the NBA. He had one of the best collegiate seasons of all-time.

And yeah, it’s easy to nitpick and hindsight is 20-20. But, in many people’s minds, it was not such an open-and-shut case to go with Durant over Oden. We have seen time and time again that passing up a clearly better player to go with a need is not the best approach. Darko over Carmelo, etc.

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[quote]randman wrote:
And I disagree with your top 20 list of “better than Bynum”.[/quote]

Who do you disagree with?

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[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:
Dude, you are so fucking wrong about Bynum it’s starting to piss me off. He ain’t no fucking young Ilgauskas. Again, you ADMITTED you haven’t watched him play most of the year. Taking what you saw from the playoffs does not make you an expert. [/quote]

I never claimed to be an expert. But you are acting like I have seen him play one time while you are at every game taking copious scouting notes and reviewing video. I’ve seen him play a few games per season and the playoffs for the past few seasons; I’ve probably seen him play 30-40 games. Sure, I don’t know everything about him, but I’ve seen enough to make an opinion.

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[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:
Dude, you are so fucking wrong about Bynum it’s starting to piss me off. He ain’t no fucking young Ilgauskas. Again, you ADMITTED you haven’t watched him play most of the year. Taking what you saw from the playoffs does not make you an expert. [/quote]

I never claimed to be an expert. But you are acting like I have seen him play one time while you are at every game taking copious scouting notes and reviewing video. I’ve seen him play a few games per season and the playoffs for the past few seasons; I’ve probably seen him play 30-40 games. Sure, I don’t know everything about him, but I’ve seen enough to make an opinion.

[/quote]

Dude, how/what does one game Big Z had in '98 have ANYTHING to do with a game Bynum had 12 years later? I can pull similar stats from a game that David Robinson had on the 92 Dream Team, but that doesn’t mean Bynum can travel time? You’re making really, REALLY weak arguements. Your willingness to fight is admirable I guess, but ya done lost man. Quit before it gets ugly.