oh, and before we start, please realize you’re arguing abstracts…there is some talk, but there has been no real negotiation yet. so, you’re going to hear a lot of information and none of it will resemble the final result. none of it. until then, everything is in play.
[quote]Teledin wrote:
Are the franchises under the same umbrella as the NBA, so to speak, or are they separate entities responsible for their own finances/management structure/etc.?
If the latter, I can definitely see how a centralised structure would be more beneficial for the NBA as a whole.
It would also IMO remove a lot of the CBA bullshit, and make less profitable teams more ‘profitable’.
I’ve never really been a fan of decentralisation anyway.
All the above has probably been covered anyway in this or another thread…[/quote]
They straddle both worlds so they can navigate antitrust lawsuits and such while maximizing each owners’ profit.
On one hand, you have pseudo-revenue sharing (via the luxury tax) that isn’t technically revenue sharing (though I think they will institute ACTUAL direct revenue sharing before next season). You also have one guy (Stern) representing all 30 owners when they talk to the Players’ Union.
On the other hand, teams compete in free agency signings etc. etc. and claim to be unique businesses (some teams lose money while others make money, so clearly it’s not simply “one business”).
IMO, the owners saw just how badly players manage their finances in the last lockout, and they know they can get away with a lot… they squandered the advantage last time because the union had some really smart people who made it sound like they were making a lot of concessions and “losing” the deal - and now it’s clear they crushed the owners in that CBA due to some incredible foresight (or luck).
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Your post is too long to go thru. No thanks. I disagree with at least the first two paragraphs. I didn’t go further. As for bargains made, that was the old CBA. It’s expired. There is nothing unfair about negotiating a new one. And in the real world, unprofitable companies lay off employees, so yes, salaries ARE tied to profitability. Talk to the many people here who haven’t gotten a decent raise in years or who have been laid off. The rest of your post is too meandering to be bothered with. The league is losing money. This CBA will be very different, whether the players like it or not. [/quote]
While this is 100% true, the real pertinent question is HOW MUCH money the teams are really using. A lot of their “losses” are accounting tricks like roster depreciation allowances and team/arena purchases that are allowed to be expensed over many years.
An excerpt from an ESPN article:
“In other words, $41.5 million of the Nets’ $49 million operating loss in 2005, and $40.2 million of its $57.4 million in 2006, is there simply to make the books balance. It is part of the purchase price of the team, being expensed each year. This doesn’t mean they cooked their books, or that they tried to pull a fast one on the players. It is part of the generally accepted accounting practice to transfer expenses from the acquisition to the profit and loss over a certain time period. However, it’s an argument that doesn’t hold water in a discussion with Hunter and the players association, who would claim that the Nets didn’t really “lose” a combined $106.4 million in those two years, but rather that they lost $7.5 million and $17.2 million, respectively.”
Side note - while I usually chalk up a lot of this doomsday talk as merely negotiating ploys, I am really starting to hope we have a season start before February.
Bodyguard,
This is the idea you said that I was arguing against:
I’d rather they make the team payroll caps stricter and lower average salaries that way. Like I said here:
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
OR: Simply answer this, why is it better to lower the limit on individual salaries when you could just have a stricter team payroll cap that would lower the average salary just as much while giving teams more freedom to run their teams as they see fit? That’s what I was proposing and it’s a lot better than your idea, which make NO sense in any business, including a sports franchise.[/quote]
That’s what I think would be the most fair and allow for the most freedom for players and teams.
But I also don’t think this will happen because the teams that go over the cap the most and are contenders as a result wont let that happen.
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
Bodyguard,
This is the idea you said that I was arguing against:
I’d rather they make the team payroll caps stricter and lower average salaries that way. Like I said here:
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
OR: Simply answer this, why is it better to lower the limit on individual salaries when you could just have a stricter team payroll cap that would lower the average salary just as much while giving teams more freedom to run their teams as they see fit? That’s what I was proposing and it’s a lot better than your idea, which make NO sense in any business, including a sports franchise.[/quote]
That’s what I think would be the most fair and allow for the most freedom for players and teams.
But I also don’t think this will happen because the teams that go over the cap the most and are contenders as a result wont let that happen.[/quote]
Well, this is easier than I thought and rather than illustrate it myself, I’ll simply reference the article below. Your simple solution is not so simple. And my comment was just an off-the-cuff reality retort about the real world v. this fantasy world of pro sports. I’m not really sympathetic to either side (owners or players) and I’m feeling no empathy at all toward players and potential salary cuts - especially the ridiculous multi-year GUARANTEED contracts. The fact is, you cannot introduce a hard cap without some transition…which means it’s just another flex-cap. In a perfect world, a hard cap is not a bad idea, but it won’t fit on the heels of the existing structure. The economics of the league, it’s team and player contracts is a bit more complex than simply saying “hard cap” is the answer. Do you have any idea the complexity of the current system? Any? If you don’t, I’ll post a nice reference for that too. However, I will tell you that teams have personnel dedicated to nothing but cap, because it’s THAT complicated.
http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/30429533
Check this out
KD dropped 66 points at Rucker Park
The popular comment made me laugh:
"If this was Kobe, the title of the video would be, “Kobe ball hogs his way to 66”
Hey scj119, I just saw a pic of KD shirtless and he has a Washington nationals W tattooed on his stomach
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[quote]overstand wrote:
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[/quote]
I really hope they have a season this year. They have a ton of momentum from last year it would really be a shame. I sorta side with the players. The owners are the ones that signed these huge contracts in the first place. Just cause they get owned by the agents is not the players fault. The star players are worth the money imo, it’s the Gilbert Arenas’, Rudy Gay type players that hurt the system. Stern wants it so every franchise is profitable which is ridiculous. In no other business are you guaranteed to make a profit. This is a business, if you put out a shitty product, are a poorly run organization, and sign awful contracts you are going to lose money. I am sure the lakers and celtics are doing just fine.
The players have stated numerous times that they are in a better position than they were in 99. Claiming they have been preparing for this for the past 3 years. What do you want Fisher to do? Just fold and give into the owners? He is the president of the players association. Its his job to fight for the current and future players of the league.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
why does barely anyone give a fuck?[/quote]
I know man it’s crazy. I think the NFL going on right now has something to do with it. I see this on my facebook page, there are a portion of people who actually hate the NBA.
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[/quote]
I really hope they have a season this year. They have a ton of momentum from last year it would really be a shame. I sorta side with the players. The owners are the ones that signed these huge contracts in the first place. Just cause they get owned by the agents is not the players fault. The star players are worth the money imo, it’s the Gilbert Arenas’, Rudy Gay type players that hurt the system. Stern wants it so every franchise is profitable which is ridiculous. In no other business are you guaranteed to make a profit. This is a business, if you put out a shitty product, are a poorly run organization, and sign awful contracts you are going to lose money. I am sure the lakers and celtics are doing just fine.
The players have stated numerous times that they are in a better position than they were in 99. Claiming they have been preparing for this for the past 3 years. What do you want Fisher to do? Just fold and give into the owners? He is the president of the players association. Its his job to fight for the current and future players of the league. [/quote]
It doesn’t matter how we got to this situation or even who’s fault it is, the fact of the matter is the players have no leverage. The gig is up, the owners have called the players bluff.
What are the players going to do without the NBA? Play in Europe, or pick up all star games? The owners are just laughing.
I applaud Derek Fisher for the work he’s done so far, but sometimes you just have to recognize you’re fighting a losing battle. It doesn’t matter how prepared the players were for this, the owners have infinitely deeper pockets and will win out in the end. The player’s already won the salary cap issue, they won guaranteed contracts, yet they continue to hold out. It’s pure greed at this point, and all they’re accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand and pissing off fans.
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[/quote]
I really hope they have a season this year. They have a ton of momentum from last year it would really be a shame. I sorta side with the players. The owners are the ones that signed these huge contracts in the first place. Just cause they get owned by the agents is not the players fault. The star players are worth the money imo, it’s the Gilbert Arenas’, Rudy Gay type players that hurt the system. Stern wants it so every franchise is profitable which is ridiculous. In no other business are you guaranteed to make a profit. This is a business, if you put out a shitty product, are a poorly run organization, and sign awful contracts you are going to lose money. I am sure the lakers and celtics are doing just fine.
The players have stated numerous times that they are in a better position than they were in 99. Claiming they have been preparing for this for the past 3 years. What do you want Fisher to do? Just fold and give into the owners? He is the president of the players association. Its his job to fight for the current and future players of the league. [/quote]
It doesn’t matter how we got to this situation or even who’s fault it is, the fact of the matter is the players have no leverage. The gig is up, the owners have called the players bluff.
What are the players going to do without the NBA? Play in Europe, or pick up all star games? The owners are just laughing.
I applaud Derek Fisher for the work he’s done so far, but sometimes you just have to recognize you’re fighting a losing battle. It doesn’t matter how prepared the players were for this, the owners have infinitely deeper pockets and will win out in the end. The player’s already won the salary cap issue, they won guaranteed contracts, yet they continue to hold out. It’s pure greed at this point, and all they’re accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand and pissing off fans.[/quote]
Don’t make the mistake to think that this whole situation isn’t hurting owners either. Their investments (teams) aren’t earning any money right now, I mean how can they there’s no season. Yeah, every team owner is a huge NBA fan but don’t think they didn’t see their purchase as a business investment too. You don’t get that rich and start buying things just because you can. These owners, before they purchased their respective team, anticipated some sort of return on investment in the future. Even the owners that bought bad teams, like Prokorov recently must have had some business forethought before they spent that much wealth. Prokorov and Jay-Z are definitely going to move the Nets to Brooklyn - a bigger market. The only uncertainty is when that’s going to be.
Point is, the lockout hurts both parties. The players, espeically the top guys can take their talents to Europe on pricey short-term contracts. Kobe is actually pondering a $2 million deal for ONE game at an Italian club. There’s no doubt however the longer this thing drags on for, the more anxious the players are going to get.
Ultimately it’s boiling done to money. Everyone wants a slice of the pie. I’m surprised the refs and their union, if such a thing exists, aren’t involved in the loop somehow lol.
In my opinion everything needs to be downsized - player contracts, costs AND the number of teams. The last point is probably the most controversial and I don’t know if it’s even a viable topic of discussion, let alone on the table. In a healthy macroeconomic environemnt contraction shouldn’t even be a suggestion but the problem is demand isn’t there for some markets. The question is, would some of these BAD teams make money if they were GOOD and what are the chances, realistically, that they can become good soon. The NBA isn’t technically a zero sum game because teams like the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks can still make money even if they’re shit. If fans really believe in their team and enjoy watching them play, even if they lose, every team should be able to make money. That’s all theoretical, the situation at hand isn’t like that. Some cities just aren’t into their NBA team - so either relocate the team (e.g. Seattle → OKC) or get rid of the motherfucker. Sure, some guys will be out of a job but it will make the league more competitive.
I don’t know much about player contracts so I won’t try to espouse some sort of solution but I will say that when Rashard Lewis is making $20 m in 1 YEAR, something isn’t right and needs a fix - immediately.
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[/quote]
I really hope they have a season this year. They have a ton of momentum from last year it would really be a shame. I sorta side with the players. The owners are the ones that signed these huge contracts in the first place. Just cause they get owned by the agents is not the players fault. The star players are worth the money imo, it’s the Gilbert Arenas’, Rudy Gay type players that hurt the system. Stern wants it so every franchise is profitable which is ridiculous. In no other business are you guaranteed to make a profit. This is a business, if you put out a shitty product, are a poorly run organization, and sign awful contracts you are going to lose money. I am sure the lakers and celtics are doing just fine.
The players have stated numerous times that they are in a better position than they were in 99. Claiming they have been preparing for this for the past 3 years. What do you want Fisher to do? Just fold and give into the owners? He is the president of the players association. Its his job to fight for the current and future players of the league. [/quote]
It doesn’t matter how we got to this situation or even who’s fault it is, the fact of the matter is the players have no leverage. The gig is up, the owners have called the players bluff.
What are the players going to do without the NBA? Play in Europe, or pick up all star games? The owners are just laughing.
I applaud Derek Fisher for the work he’s done so far, but sometimes you just have to recognize you’re fighting a losing battle. It doesn’t matter how prepared the players were for this, the owners have infinitely deeper pockets and will win out in the end. The player’s already won the salary cap issue, they won guaranteed contracts, yet they continue to hold out. It’s pure greed at this point, and all they’re accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand and pissing off fans.[/quote]
I disagree that the owners are laughing. Especially some of the newer owners who payed 500 million+ for their franchises for mediocre teams. Owners make a ton of money off the arenas that continue to be empty.
You even said yourself that the owners have far deeper pockets than the players so why are they not being labeled as greedy? They potentially could own a team for 25+ years whereas an average career in the NBA is 3 years. Why would they not try to maximize their earning potential. Don’t listen to the media without skepticism because the owners are gonna leak the information they want (fewer in numbers and highly educated) and the players are gonna trip over their own feet. Making the players look worse but it doesn’t make it the reality.
The owners will eventually win out but I don’t blame the players for fighting. Stern is an excellent negotiator as well as an asshole who works for the owners. All the owners have been hyper successful in another field so it’s basically an uphill battle that will end sooner rather than later.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]TommyGunz32 wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
So, first 2 weeks of the season officially canceled.
I honestly didn’t think it would come to this, and I think the players are to blame. Time to wake up and realize they are not going to win a war of attrition against a bunch of a billionaires. The only thing they are accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand. Part of me hopes people boycott the NBA so they see we won’t just come crawling back when they pull this shit. It took them over a decade after Jordan retired and the 99 lockout to rebuild the league’s popularity and it seems like they are doing everything in their power to destroy it again.
The owners conceded the hard cap, they conceded guaranteed contracts. Any sane businessman would have accepted the 50/50 split and called it a resounding victory for the players. Yet they are still holding out because they are “standing together” to get “respect” from the big bad owners. BUNCHA SHIT. And I’m sick of Derek Fisher trying to act like he’s some businessman. And Amare Stoudamire saying the players are going to start their own league, but they hope it doesn’t come to that. LOL yea right dude. They just look like a bunch of clowns at this point.
[/quote]
I really hope they have a season this year. They have a ton of momentum from last year it would really be a shame. I sorta side with the players. The owners are the ones that signed these huge contracts in the first place. Just cause they get owned by the agents is not the players fault. The star players are worth the money imo, it’s the Gilbert Arenas’, Rudy Gay type players that hurt the system. Stern wants it so every franchise is profitable which is ridiculous. In no other business are you guaranteed to make a profit. This is a business, if you put out a shitty product, are a poorly run organization, and sign awful contracts you are going to lose money. I am sure the lakers and celtics are doing just fine.
The players have stated numerous times that they are in a better position than they were in 99. Claiming they have been preparing for this for the past 3 years. What do you want Fisher to do? Just fold and give into the owners? He is the president of the players association. Its his job to fight for the current and future players of the league. [/quote]
It doesn’t matter how we got to this situation or even who’s fault it is, the fact of the matter is the players have no leverage. The gig is up, the owners have called the players bluff.
What are the players going to do without the NBA? Play in Europe, or pick up all star games? The owners are just laughing.
I applaud Derek Fisher for the work he’s done so far, but sometimes you just have to recognize you’re fighting a losing battle. It doesn’t matter how prepared the players were for this, the owners have infinitely deeper pockets and will win out in the end. The player’s already won the salary cap issue, they won guaranteed contracts, yet they continue to hold out. It’s pure greed at this point, and all they’re accomplishing now is further damage to the NBA brand and pissing off fans.[/quote]
Don’t make the mistake to think that this whole situation isn’t hurting owners either. Their investments (teams) aren’t earning any money right now, I mean how can they there’s no season. Yeah, every team owner is a huge NBA fan but don’t think they didn’t see their purchase as a business investment too. You don’t get that rich and start buying things just because you can. These owners, before they purchased their respective team, anticipated some sort of return on investment in the future. Even the owners that bought bad teams, like Prokorov recently must have had some business forethought before they spent that much wealth. Prokorov and Jay-Z are definitely going to move the Nets to Brooklyn - a bigger market. The only uncertainty is when that’s going to be.
Point is, the lockout hurts both parties. The players, espeically the top guys can take their talents to Europe on pricey short-term contracts. Kobe is actually pondering a $2 million deal for ONE game at an Italian club. There’s no doubt however the longer this thing drags on for, the more anxious the players are going to get.
Ultimately it’s boiling done to money. Everyone wants a slice of the pie. I’m surprised the refs and their union, if such a thing exists, aren’t involved in the loop somehow lol.
In my opinion everything needs to be downsized - player contracts, costs AND the number of teams. The last point is probably the most controversial and I don’t know if it’s even a viable topic of discussion, let alone on the table. In a healthy macroeconomic environemnt contraction shouldn’t even be a suggestion but the problem is demand isn’t there for some markets. The question is, would some of these BAD teams make money if they were GOOD and what are the chances, realistically, that they can become good soon. The NBA isn’t technically a zero sum game because teams like the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks can still make money even if they’re shit. If fans really believe in their team and enjoy watching them play, even if they lose, every team should be able to make money. That’s all theoretical, the situation at hand isn’t like that. Some cities just aren’t into their NBA team - so either relocate the team (e.g. Seattle → OKC) or get rid of the motherfucker. Sure, some guys will be out of a job but it will make the league more competitive.
I don’t know much about player contracts so I won’t try to espouse some sort of solution but I will say that when Rashard Lewis is making $20 m in 1 YEAR, something isn’t right and needs a fix - immediately. [/quote]
I agree