My Problem With Billionaires

Off Topic
21

I think I get what you are saying Mufasa.

The best example I can think of is Robert Kiyosaki, who wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad. The whole book is probably made up, although he claims it to be his life story. And he has no proof of wealth before his book became a bestseller, but we are supposed to listen to his real estate “secrets” and motivational stories? Please!

In fact, most real estate “gurus” fall into the category you describe. They may have gotten lucky with a couple of good buys, and then they make a book or course on how to get-rich-quick like they did.

Don’t get me wrong, there is money in real estate, a lot; and with a little bit of research and know-how you can make money. But if you got-rich-quick from real estate, it was probably luck.

Oh yeah…don’t shop at Wal-Mart.

22

No…I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Sam Walton was a killer…in fact, the MAN (not his future Corporation), supports my premise…

Sam Walton worked [u]very[/u] hard (while failing more than once…)

HOWEVER…he recognized how lucky he was to have lived the life he lived and to have reached the level of success he had reached…

Mufasa

23

I agree, Luck is “preperation met with oppertunity” as said above.

Because of that though knowledge is very important. I am a kid, but everyday afterschool I go above and beyond school. I read finance and economics books. I try to learn why the stock market does what it does. This is that preperation.

My favorite example is Warren Buffet. He grew up in a small town or suburb. Anyway, one day his dad brought home a broken pinball machine. He spent all summer fixing it. When he was finished he set it up. Afterward, with the revenue created by his investment he set up more pinball machines.

Yes, he had an oppertunity. Though how many of you would have actually spent your entire summer, or have it even occur to you that this could be a gold mine in town? He had the will and the preperation to be on the look out and know what to do when he saw the oppertunity.

With that revenue he bought an appartment house in town. He began to grow. He was so prepared that When he got into UPenn he said he knew more than the teachers. With decent grades he was unable to attend Harvard, but attened Colombia to be with Ben Graham (The father of Value investing). Warren studied under him and became a very good invester like Ben.

That was luck, but also a bit a preperation. He knew who Ben Graham was, and I would argue he would have met him and learned from him anyway.

These billionaries are not lying to you. You can make the billions by doing what they say but you need the awareness that this isn’t everything. You need to try and create and take advanatge of oppertunities.

24

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
sigh!

(Obviously I need to either work on my communication skills…or attend a Motivational Retreat!)

Okay, Zeb:

What special “skill” did you have; what special “thing” did you do; or how hard did you work in order to assure that you were born in America…and not in the middle of a Refugee camp in the Congo?

Mufasa[/quote]

I think I admitted that I was lucky to be born in America, but that’s where it ends my friend!

As far as your communication skills, I think they are exceptional. In your first post you wrote:

"1) Luck.

  1. Being in the right place at the right time.

  2. Luck.

  3. Stepping on, over and through a few people along the way.

  4. Luck."

That indicates to me that you seem to think that financial success has less to do with working smart, and hard, planning, saving and basically taking a risk. And more to do with luck (since it’s mentioned three times on your list. And stepping on people, which is mentioned once.

You communicated your premise quite well, it just happens to be wrong!

25

Mufassa

I am no billionaire but I am probably considered well off by most standards.

My fortunes was made by working very hard. Anticipating and imagining things that others did not see and taking advantage of those opportunities.

How much did luck have to do with it. I would say a great deal. I have been fortunate to have the money and desire when the opportunity came along to put my money where my mouth is. It’s usually paid off thru determination after that. But initially I’d have to say luck played a big part. I could have been a day late or a dollar short many times.

I own two companies today. Not large corporations but nice solid companies that throw off a good living for a lot of folks, me included.

The second one I started was for my wife. She had an interest in travel and we thought this had a chance to make money. It really took off and I will one day get out of my business and work with her…who knew. Another time I tried like hell to buy a company that made tin plates for pies and things like that. I was ready to throw everything I had behind that idea but came up short. Glad I didn’t. We would have been bankrupt when the Chinese got into the field and crushed the company about two years later. I had a lot of luck avoiding that deal but didn’t know it at the time.

My rules would be:

  1. Work smart…learn.
  2. Have Good Luck
  3. Determination
  4. Keep your finances in order so you
    are ready to make the plunge.

I can’t emphasize enough the need to have money available. I worked for years on Wall St. and was very succesful. I made enough to invest in something else and that’s what paid off for me. But you have to make it somewhere first to have the cash.

Most really wealthy guys I know give luck it’s due, right behind brains. For some…in my opinion, it was the only thing!

26

Jay,

You have it all wrong my friend!

Most of the wealthy did not inherit their fortunes. That is just another lie told by those who are either ignorant or jealous of those who are truly wealthy.

Most of the wealthy started out just like you and me pal, broke or next to broke. They had enough desire and determination to succeed.

Check out the Forbes wealthiest Americans for yourself and see where forutune comes from: Realestate, fast food, computers, publishing, manufacturing etc. Business my man. Business!

http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=54&passYear=2002&passListType=Person&searchParameter1=&searchParameter2=&resultsHowMany=25&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield1%2C%2Bstringfield1&resultsSortCategoryName=rank&fromColumnClick=true&bktDisplayField=&bktDisplayFieldLength=&category1=&category2=&passKeyword=&resultsStart=1

As far as your harsh analysis of Wal-Mart you are wrong again! Do you honestly think that the lady who checks you out at Wal-Mart had health Insurance at the corner stor that Wal-Mart put out of business? No way! In fact larger corporations are responsible for dishing out the majority of health insurance to their employees.

I believe only a small percentage of what we can call “small business” carries health insurance for their employees.

Wal-Mart provides jobs for millions of people! Granted most of them are not high paying jobs, however they are good “starter jobs.” If someone works as a clerk at Wal-Mart for a year or two to gain job experience then move on, what’s wrong with that?

For those who want to stay at Wal-Mart and make a career out of it. What wrong with that? We all have the opportunity to better ourselves at any point in our lives. To blame a single corporation, or corporate America in general is ridiculous.

27

[quote]
WalMart is a good example of the greatest danger America faces today: Corporate Power. There are now over 50 million people without medical insurance in the US and the US life expectancy is now down to 24th best in the world. That means Americans are being killed. And Sam Walton was someone very responsible for that.[/quote]

Don’t forget all the people who buy there too. Sam didn’t get rich alone. He just used what people gave him … repeatedly. Sam just surfed the wave.

Who was it that said “We have seen the enemy, and it is us.” ? Another classic, “Every time you spend money, you’re casting a vote for the kind of world you want.” – Anna Lappe

Think about it next time someone you know is trying to save a buck… at the expense of whom?

Fair trade need to move beyond coffee products alone. But then we’ll have that “I need to be rewarded for my efforts” mantra. Yawn. Like someone’s who a billionnaire needs another billion. First of all, he can’t take it with him when he dies. Second, what’s it gonna change except his bank account and his family? Excess profits should be sent in part to philantropic deeds. Carnegie was said to have given it all away … so that his children would need to start from the ground up exactly like their dad … a far better move than sons of millionnaires who destroy the legacy within 2 generations… food for thought…

28

Mufasa,

It seems many who have replied to this thread have missed the point of your observation/rant. Hopefully I am getting you. I’ll rant alongide you if you don’t mind.

Some people think it is weak to even talk about luck. They think you are jealous of those more successful than you. Me, I think it takes a strong and smart person to have a little humility (all too rare these days!) and recognize that there are things beyond our control. I think it can sometimes take some courage to say, “Hey, I can do everything right, consider everything, learn everything, and still fail!”.

Most people hate saying that last line (or hear others say it) because MOST of the time it is just an excuse. It is pretty rare that anyone exhausts all the reasonable opportunities for success. I think that is probably the gist of many of the responses you had here. You state an obvious truth so it looks like an excuse for failure.

I think everyone knows that luck plays some role. The real question is does luck play a -meaningful- role in the success of these billionaires?
The other question is, does taking advantage of other humans play a meaningful role in the success of these billionaires?

Personally I’d say probably to the first one and maybe to the 2nd one (depends on the billionaire). But here is why I think most people publishing books won’t mention either in any detail.

Luck - would you buy a book from someone who claimed he had a sure fire way to be successful or someone who said he had a way to be successful provided you have a little luck? Which is the stronger sales pitch?
Also, some ideas/people are so good that success is virtually assured. These are pretty rare. But they do exist.

Trodding on others - if true it would have to be published in a very very “black” book that is not sold in stores. There is no percentage for the author to detail how they slept with so and so, or screwed Old Mrs. Macdoodle out of her farm, or dumped 50 tons of toxic waste in a canal and hired someone to build a playground over it. It would just be stupid for any businessman to ever admit that any of these things could ever pay off. But it’s obvious that sometimes people rise to the top by unethical means. It stares us in the face every day. Easy money is often dirty money.
Alternatively, some people do not apply the same morals to their personal life as they do to their business life, or have a different code than you do.

Just some thoughts.

29

Hmm… I see Fair Trade brought up and excess profits and all this crapola. Read a book called “The Choice” unless you wanna just delve into some hardcore economics and look into what is actually happening when tariffs and quotas are imposed. Its really silly. Why is the American Steel industry in shambles? Because it blows. Europeans can make steel, ship it across the pond for even cheaper. Why not let them?

And on the topic of needing money to start a business, all you really need is a good idea and a business plan. Venture Capital (a field I’d like to get into one day) exists for that sole reason. Starting you own business is a way to create something out of nothing.

On the topic of health care… Why does your company need to provide you benefits, why can’t they just give you cash and you decide how much health care you need? I’m one of those 50 million americans without health care. I’ll probably get a policy that’ll cover bills from like 2k-500k or maybe make the deductible 5k.

Alot of people do work hard and don’t become rich. Thats because they’re usually dumb. Its the harsh reality. The guys who can’t manage to fill my McD’s orders correctly probably won’t be able to draft contracts, prepare financial statements, or do anything that a 100k+ job a year will require.

30

Mufasa, I think I see the point you are trying to convey initially, its sounds good to me. I will try to expand and get an answer on just how far luck goes, and when it truly begins?

For example in my opinion I think luck starts when you first pop into this world, having two loving parents, being well off, education, connections and many luxories that some people seem to have more of can sure be helpful to put you in a position of further “luck” later in life. There is luck, brains, and previlege.

Donald Trump, with his TV show and his iconic personality is seen as a business God (or at least what one is to act like), but I ask you would he have had the opportunity to his success if not for previlege? Donald Trump to my recollection grew up fairly wealthy, his father already owned much real estate in New York, he had a great starting ground and expanded upon that. If Donald Trump grew up with a single mother in a trailer park, would he have made it, its still possible, would have it been much harder, hell yeah. So he may be a smart guy but to say that his previlege didn’t have anything to do with that is laughable.

Are most Billionairs/Millionairs as rich as they inherited, no most make more money of course, but a large percentage did start off fairly wealthy. To me its likes well off parents honoring their children when they make it into a nice university. Is it really admirable, high school grades anyone can do, try paying for that education. Who do you think pays for these future Billionairs education, hardly any of them paid it on their own, but this is more sterotypical.

I think America or at the least most of America now is in a very opportunity filled position so success is much easier, say much easier than being a immigrant with no education, I think there are some really great examples of people who truly made it on their own, and I admire that and respect it, but they are few and far between. The less resistence you have to face to your goal the more likely. Of course there is intelligence, creativity, and street smarts with most success stories, but its not as if you will be saying many third world children making billions, and it doesnt necessiarly mean they couldn’t if put it the same position. Life isn’t fair some will have to fight harder than others and those cases are always the most interesting and fun to hear about.

31

You guys are great!

Thanks!

I thought this was turning into the “Another Iraq Conspiracy” thread…but I knew that my Nation friends were smarter and more insightful than that!

Zeb:

My bad.

I did make it appear that luck and stepping on others were the most important attributes…and that couldn’t be further from my true feelings.

I am just bothered by not recognizing that it’s not all motivation, hard work, persistence and “tapping into the inner you” kind of stuff. I would just like to hear those whom are extremely successful, and who choose to write and lecture about it, to at least mention how good fortune/luck/blessings/opportunities…in other words, those things beyond our control, were at least part of the grand picture of success.

Hedo:

Thanks. A successful person who recognizes their blessings is also a humble person…and that type of person will never be a failure…

Bhima and EmperialChina:

Excellent insights…

Garrett:

“…A lot of people do work hard and don’t become rich. That’s because they’re usually dumb…”

I don’t know what to say…I’ll just let that go and let someone else comment more on that statement…

But I will say this…

My Dad worked hard, was talented, and giving… but never seemed to be able to get the breaks or opportunities of others.

He was not dumb…

Mufasa

32

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Jay,

You have it all wrong my friend!

Most of the wealthy did not inherit their fortunes. That is just another lie told by those who are either ignorant or jealous of those who are truly wealthy.

Most of the wealthy started out just like you and me pal, broke or next to broke. They had enough desire and determination to succeed.

Check out the Forbes wealthiest Americans for yourself and see where forutune comes from: Realestate, fast food, computers, publishing, manufacturing etc. Business my man. Business![/quote]

Actually a quick check of the top ten indicates that at least 9 were born with a silver spoon.

  1. Bill Gates-silver spoon firmly shoved up posterior.
    How to Become As Rich As Bill Gates
    Bill Gates went to Lakeside, Seattle’s most exclusive prep school where tuition in 1967 was $5,000 (Harvard tuition that year was $1760). Typical classmates included the McCaw brothers, who sold the cellular phone licenses they obtained from the U.S. Government to AT&T for $11.5 billion in 1994. When the kids there wanted to use a computer, they got their moms to hold a rummage sale and raise $3,000 to buy time on a DEC PDP-10, the same machine used by computer science researchers at Stanford and MIT.

  2. Warren Buffett-father a congressman/stockbroker
    How Did Warren Buffett Become So Rich?
    father Howard, a stockbroker-turned-Congressman.

  3. Paul Allen-same exclusive prep school as Gates
    thocp.net

  4. The Five Waltons all inherited their money.

  5. Joseph (Larry) Ellison (Oracle) ??

  6. Steven Anthony Ballmer-silver spoon plus luck plus brains
    Steve Ballmer - Wikipedia
    He grew up with his younger sister in Farmington Hills near Detroit, where his father worked as a manager at Ford Motor Company.
    Even as he studied in the Detroit Country Day School, he was the manager of the school’s basketball team. In 1973, he graduated from school with a grade point average of 4.0 and was the valedictorian of his class. He scored a perfect 800 on the math SATs and got scholarship to Harvard University by competing in math tournaments. In the freshman year, a close friendship developed between Ballmer and his dorm mate Bill Gates, which continued even after Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard and started his own software company.

[quote]As far as your harsh analysis of Wal-Mart you are wrong again! Do you honestly think that the lady who checks you out at Wal-Mart had health Insurance at the corner stor that Wal-Mart put out of business? No way!
In fact larger corporations are responsible for dishing out the majority of health insurance to their employees.

I believe only a small percentage of what we can call “small business” carries health insurance for their employees.[/quote]
Glad to see we agree that WalMart should be dishing out health insurance. I’m sure if we quit voting for republicans we might see some politicians who have enough spine to stand up to corporate power.

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=3E029D6FA302DD30B179B8CE2C8CCE5F.titan?id=583742

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=583742

[quote]We all have the opportunity to better ourselves at any point in our lives. To blame a single corporation, or corporate America in general is ridiculous.
[/quote]
http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=583742

33

I would say that overemphasising one facet of a very complex situation is everyones greatest problem. No one REALLY knows what the determinating factor was. All you can do is HONESTLY look at the situation your in and do what you can.

Shit i have enough trouble HONESTLY looking at the world around me and seeing whats really going on to make any use of it, let alone trying to break it down into proportions. Which would be a waste of time anyway, the next situation would be entirely different.

Do what you can.

34

Interesting.

I had some trouble deciding with whom I agreed initially. But then I realized we hadn’t defined the stakes.

Are we listing the requirements to become a billionaire? Certainly it takes more than hard work and intelligence. Luck, charisma, a genuinely good idea, timing, and people management, and dozens of intangibles figure hugely here as well.

But maybe we’re only talking about millionaires? This is America, it isn’t tremendously difficult to become a millionaire with truly hard work, intelligence, and a reasonable, if not spectacular hand of cards.

Or perhaps, as three or four people have suggested, the objective is just a 100K job? Certainly intelligence and work alone may suffice. Since we haven’t defined a set wealth, you don’t even need a savings plan.

DI

35

[quote]Jay Sherman wrote:
Actually a quick check of the top ten indicates that at least 9 were born with a silver spoon.

  1. Bill Gates-silver spoon firmly shoved up posterior.
    How to Become As Rich As Bill Gates
    Bill Gates went to Lakeside, Seattle’s most exclusive prep school where tuition in 1967 was $5,000 (Harvard tuition that year was $1760). Typical classmates included the McCaw brothers, who sold the cellular phone licenses they obtained from the U.S. Government to AT&T for $11.5 billion in 1994. When the kids there wanted to use a computer, they got their moms to hold a rummage sale and raise $3,000 to buy time on a DEC PDP-10, the same machine used by computer science researchers at Stanford and MIT.

[/quote]

Good post, Jay.

On the topic of Gates, I read somewhere that the guy in the IBM who gave Microsoft (then an obscure company) their first contract, was in fact Gates’ mother school friend. That contract enabled Microsoft to get $$$ from every PC IBM shipped, as it had to be shipped with MS-DOS.

That particular contract, in my opinion, is what “created” Microsoft, and I think those kinds of situations are what Mufasa is talking about.

36

Jay,

I thought I smelled a liberal…lol.

You can take the top ten if you like. However if you take the top 400 you will see that they are self-made. By the way how did being born into a family where your father is a Professor automatically guarentee you Billionaire status? How many Professors children grow up to be derilicts?

I know that some children are born into families that have more than others, (that bothers you but don’t let it) however there are enough cases where those children go no where to negate your point. I think becoming a millionaire is no different than any other ability. Everyone can’t be a brain surgeon, artist etc. However, I do think that in America if financial independence is your goal, you can do it.

Another good book for you to check out would be “The Millionaire Next Door.” This book also debunks the standard negative crap spewed by some. In the book it specifically looks at inheritence, and very few of our current crop of millionaires got there by inheritance!

As far as Wal-Mart paying for peoples health insurance, it’s certainly not their obligation to do so. When in America did it become a workers “right” to health insurance? It’s a benefit, not a right. If your company does not offer health insurance then you might look elsewhere. If enough workers go to work for companies that provide health insurance, then maybe the Wal-Marts of the world will take the hint, however it’s their option.

If whiners spent less time whining and more time figuring out how to make the current system work for them, they would be better off and so would everyone else!

One more thing: I think before we continue this discussion we need to define the word “luck.” If by luck you mean something happened to you that was very good that you had nothing to do with, yes that happens. My point is that it happens to us all. Those who were/are prepared for that unknown positive circumstance become successful. Those who are standing around whining about the system are not prepared to take adavantage of this “unknown positive circumstance.” Are they unlucky, or unprepared?

37

[quote]slotan wrote:
Jay Sherman wrote:
Actually a quick check of the top ten indicates that at least 9 were born with a silver spoon.

  1. Bill Gates-silver spoon firmly shoved up posterior.
    How to Become As Rich As Bill Gates
    Bill Gates went to Lakeside, Seattle’s most exclusive prep school where tuition in 1967 was $5,000 (Harvard tuition that year was $1760). Typical classmates included the McCaw brothers, who sold the cellular phone licenses they obtained from the U.S. Government to AT&T for $11.5 billion in 1994. When the kids there wanted to use a computer, they got their moms to hold a rummage sale and raise $3,000 to buy time on a DEC PDP-10, the same machine used by computer science researchers at Stanford and MIT.

Good post, Jay.

On the topic of Gates, I read somewhere that the guy in the IBM who gave Microsoft (then an obscure company) their first contract, was in fact Gates’ mother school friend. That contract enabled Microsoft to get $$$ from every PC IBM shipped, as it had to be shipped with MS-DOS.

That particular contract, in my opinion, is what “created” Microsoft, and I think those kinds of situations are what Mufasa is talking about.
[/quote]

So…you are stating that Microsoft and the guy who virtually created software would not have become a billionaire without this circumstance? And furthemore, would this “circumstance” have helped him out if he was already not prepared to succeed? Think about it.

38

[quote]ZEB wrote:
So…you are stating that Microsoft and the guy who virtually created software would not have become a billionaire without this circumstance? And furthemore, would this “circumstance” have helped him out if he was already not prepared to succeed? Think about it.

[/quote]

ZEB,

How was he prepared to succeed? He had access to a computer when most of the people didn’t have a clue what that was. He had a head start. Furthermore, how often does a multi-bilion dollar company like IBM offers that kind of contract to a small software manufacture? Bear in mind that there was nothing truly spectacular about MS-DOS as more advanced operating systems like VMS and Unix had alredy been working back in 1970s.

The thing is, Bill Gates never claimed otherwise. I read all of that in his biography titled “Hard Drive” (I think, it was a while ago).

I’m not trying to take away anything from Mr Gates’ accomplishments. But I’m trying to illustrate that sometimes you have to be at the right place in the right time. I still think that particular contract is the reason Microsoft is THE BIGGEST software company in the whole world. Without it, the competition would’ve catched up sooner and maybe we would have 2 or 3 or more big companies figthing for market with their own operating systems.

But, that’s just my opinion…

39

Hard work alone doesn’t guarantee you anything in life. You have to couple hard work with risk if you want to rise up above the heard of people who are capable of doing the exact same thing you are. Some of you people are calling it luck. But the fact is, entrepreneurs that have had success risked their money, their reputation, their credit, and in some cases their family, for the success they earned. Maybe the luck part is that their risk paid off, but the fact is, they still had to have the brass friggin balls to stick their neck out there and risk it all.

I don’t care how hard someone works, if that hard work is done in the relative safety of a job that earns a paycheck each week, you’re only going to be as wealthy as the person paying you is willing to make you. It’s when you’re willing to step outside of that safety net and take on an appropriate level of risk (be it through investments or your own private venture), that you have the potential to make real money.

No disrespect for those of you that believe in luck, but while you’re waiting around to get lucky, I’m going to be out hustling to make a buck. Being rich isn’t for everybody. Everybody says they want to be rich, but few people are willing to make the sacrifices and do what it takes to get there.

By the way, last night the key note speaker to a dinner I was at for entrepreneurs was a very successful man who told the story of his entrepreneurial career. His story was full of failures…to start his company he quit his job, burned through his personal savings and his retirement savings; he sold off all his personal assets and maxed his credit. His company failed several times before he finally made a successful product and now has a billion dollars in annual sales. Lucky? How many of you would have taken on the same amount of risk to get to where he is? To me dismissing his success as luck is to take away all the hard work, personal sacrifices, and risks he made along the way. He earned that money.

And lastly, a quote from my favorite speech on the topic of inheriting money:

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth–the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune.

40

[quote]elars21 wrote:
Many Americans do work hard. However they will never be rich. They have the will, but not the means. If you have to work 40 hours a week to SURVIVE, you will not have the ability to divulge into entrepeneurship, the stock-market or capitalism itself really. Many who work at Wal-Mart might as well be paid in gift cards to spend at the store. [/quote]

This is a good example of poor man’s thinking. I won’t, can’t, poor woe as me. A lot of billionaires didn’t start with a penny to their name. You just sputtered off a bunch of excuses why you will never be rich.