Rhino, are you saying he was being all aggressive and shit and then stopped, just like that?
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
look bro if you enjoy/attend dog fights, you are ignorant. i don’t know your circumstances for witnessing this shit so i won’t judge beyond saying it’s inherently wrong.
Give me an APBT from a champion fighting line AS A PUPPY and socialize him around other dogs, it should be known i hate dog parks they fuck up people and dogs…but the point holds true, just because an animal has a genetic predisposition for aggression doesn’t mean it cannot be behaviorally modified from a young age.
Michael Jordan would have sucked at basketball if he never played or practiced. Athletics/genetics are one thing, but some shit is a learned response.
My dog and cat are best friends, that shit didn’t just happen. i do think, as stated, dog parks are a set up for disaster, but ABPT isn’t a killing machine from birth, ignorant fuckers who choose to fight dogs create them. [/quote]
Shouldn’t question somebodies ignorance and turn around and say something ignorant.
“GAME” Dogs cannot be broken in to socialize… That’s the point of it being a “GAME” dog. Many dog fighters will not let a dog live from birth if it doesn’t constantly attack other dogs. Your scenerio is the equivelenat of saying you can put a mentally challenged kid in a room full of physicist and he will be a genius. Stupid and doesn’t make sense.
Now you CAN possibly get other types of dogs from a champion line, but it’s the luck of the genes. But if you get a true “GAME” dog and try to break him in with other dogs, you’ll end up with alot of dead dogs.[/quote]
GAME dogs as you so aptly call them, they pop out of womb tearing shit up huh? That’s pretty gangster. Look i get that certain puppies are dominant w/in the litter and all but to think they’re killers from the get go is crazy.
will certain dog’s likely get into fights if not CONTROLLED? sure, my shepherd when young (unfixed male) was pretty dominant SCH 1, however i could keep him under wraps, fuck he was even cool w/ my best friends male dog, i was simply in charge of shit.
point taken, certain types are more GAME however you can modify that shit, turn the volume down so to speak if you are diligent from the get go.
in terms of dominance against people, shit my dog was taught (under certain circumstances) to view humans as prey animals. that said, in my home and w/ guests my dog knew his place, smart dogs can be discerning. i could take his food, put my hand in the bowl, he’s eat around my fingers.
Respect and a swift ass kicking when the first challenge arises is paramount. If a dog i owned bit me, i’d likely beat it to death, under most circumstances.
[quote]nikinine wrote:
Rhino, are you saying he was being all aggressive and shit and then stopped, just like that?[/quote]
The random aggressiveness is gone, he still is aggressive if you try to touch him while he eats, and I really have no reason to touch him while he eats so it’s not a problem. I make him wait till I say he can eat and he listens. If anything, the period of time where he would turn really helped me read his behavior patterns well.
As previously mentioned. Back in August, he came at me in the kitchen while I was cutting up a steak for whatever reason. I swiftly put my foot out and he fell backwards and moved away. Ever since then, he has not been randomly aggressive at all.
I am glad it turned out like this because I wanted to keep him despite MANY people close to me telling me I was crazy for keeping him and telling me I needed to send him away with animal control. I am glad I did NOT listen to them 
No stupid chain thing, no pinning this dog to the ground, if he is aggressive towards you just give him a healthy slap across the chops, if he wants more after that, you didn’t slap him hard enough. Firm but fair.
Since when has it been OK to hit dogs?
If your dog bites you something is wrong. It wasn’t because you failed to show him how hard you can hit him. There are a lot of reasons why a dog might bite - pain, a problem with the brain, learned behaviour, self-defence. Most of those things there is going to be a long process leading up to the bite, a bite is never random.
The only times I’ve ever seen dogs who bite without warning is when that dog has been punished for growling, barking or snapping. It’s stupid to punish a dog for growling or barking, backing away, trying to leave a situation or whatever. All these things are WARNING SIGNS. Dogs can’t tell us any other way. If you punish them for trying to communicate you remove their options until all they have left is their bite.
All dogs bite. Every single one of them can be put into a situation where they will bite. There are no exceptions to this. It doesn’t matter how much you love them or they love you. The only reason they don’t bite people who hit them or otherwise abuse them is because they trust you to provide the food, shelter, and whatever social contact they have (even if all those things are shitty). They understand survival very well and their long process of evolution has included us nearly every step of the way. If that wasn’t the case, hitting a dog would be like hitting a wolf. Munch, munch, you’re lunch.
[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
[quote]nikinine wrote:
Rhino, are you saying he was being all aggressive and shit and then stopped, just like that?[/quote]
The random aggressiveness is gone, he still is aggressive if you try to touch him while he eats, and I really have no reason to touch him while he eats so it’s not a problem. I make him wait till I say he can eat and he listens. If anything, the period of time where he would turn really helped me read his behavior patterns well.
As previously mentioned. Back in August, he came at me in the kitchen while I was cutting up a steak for whatever reason. I swiftly put my foot out and he fell backwards and moved away. Ever since then, he has not been randomly aggressive at all.
I am glad it turned out like this because I wanted to keep him despite MANY people close to me telling me I was crazy for keeping him and telling me I needed to send him away with animal control. I am glad I did NOT listen to them ;)[/quote]
hmm, I didn’t re-read the whole thread but I seem to recall you were on the couch and he went at you. Sorry about that
Brother Chris: [quote]I apologize if I offended you with my raising; I’ll let folks know you disapprove of their culture. I however am not apologetic for not having a base relationship based solely on if the person finds dog fighting entertaining or not. When I watched dog fighting it was legal, there were no federal laws against dog fighting, there was no panty-wasted groups crying about the cruelty of animals in or on a persons personal property. I talk to these people because they are experts in conditioning dogs for things like weight pulling and other competitive “game” activities.
Even if I choose to “turn” someone in for a victimless crime, how would the DA prosecute them?
You can’t make a law then charge someone for doing that thing before you made the crime ain’t that the truth?
Yes, I have bred dogs before, but if someone is fighting dogs it ain’t my business and it ain’t yours either. I do not break the law, sorry sir. Do not get on your high cardboard horse yet. You might have to get on my level again after you realize it ain’t very sturdy up there.
If you want something to go holla about, go down to Guam Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands where they still allow cock fighting. Oh and just to let you know, they found that allowing cock fighting lowers crimes and creates a sense of community.
You remind me of the people that have no clue about a culture and just destroy it because you find it non-kosher that someone would do something like fighting animals and other activities. [/quote]
I read this the other day and I’m not on a high horse here but I disagree. I wouldn’t ask a human or animal to do anything that I wouldn’t do (I’ve done a bit!) But the idea of animals fighting to the death makes me queasy. And, imo, just because a whole culture does it, doesn’t make it right. There are other ways to ‘build community’ that don’t involve bloodshed.
Yeah, putting aside my personal judgements about people who fight dogs (legally or otherwise), it can hardly be called a “victimless crime”.
And I’m willing to bet, even if there is a proven causal link between cock fighting and lower crime rates (which there isn’t), there are plenty of places in the world with lower crime rates than Guam and the Virgin Islands that don’t allow cock fighting.
Nothing better than watching a good pittie in Mondio or French Ring though. Or weight pull.
Push, none of those things are equivalent and I’m sure anyone is capable of understanding that no matter what “plane” they think they are on or what their opinion is.
We’re talking about hitting a dog for the purposes of changing it’s behaviour, or possibly even just as an act of revenge. We’re not talking about hunting, harvesting, working or culling, are we?
So let’s narrow it down to changing behaviour, specifically the behaviour of a dog. I’m not going to argue against the use of aversives to modify a dog’s behaviour (as in the example of a shock collar on a bird dog) provided that the dog is capable of learning from the experience, it is not traumatic/injurious or it is the only sensible option for safety of lives involved.
Comparing hitting a dog to anything a bird-dog trainer, stock dog trainer, farmer, jackaroo, hunter or even chicken egg collector does is an insult to those people. As a dog trainer who does use aversives I don’t want to be compared to someone who hits dogs under those circumstances. The only time I’m going to hit a dog is if it’s attacking another dog, or a kid, something like that. There is already enough misinformation out there and the RSPCA in my country are already making moves to take anything that isn’t cookies and hugs away from me because of this sort of ignorance.
Even if in YOUR ideology it’s OK to hit a dog, there are more effective ways to train a dog. Making a dog fearful of you is not doing you or the dog any favours, it’s just buying you some time and maybe making you feel a little better.
I’m not saying this is you, but if someone has to hit their dog, they have failed long before that moment and hitting the dog won’t get them back where they need to be. It’s at that point they should have the common sense to start looking for help.
If any of this sounds like “dog whisperer horseshit that psychoanalyzes basic common sense” still, then respectfully, that’s because I AM a dog trainer and my main line of business is aggressive dogs. It’s my business to know this stuff.
I’m not taking some theoretical or ideological moral high-ground, I’m in the business of making aggressive dogs nice, safe dogs to live with. There is always something to learn but some of the shit I’ve seen in this thread is the least effective, least useful, most dangerous crap that the vast majority of my profession, and me personally, have thrown out years ago.
Well I do have dogs of my own. One of them currently is from the old ‘DDR’ lines, a working line german shepherd. I also have a child. I’m not trying to start a pissing match or boasting of my success or abilities, just saying over a lot of dogs, dogs with a range of problems, I have good, well formed reasons for not going down certain paths. One of those paths is hitting.
I will freely admit that some of those personal reasons are ideological, but in the absence of any ideological reasoning I would still make the same choice based purely on objective observations. In fact I was in that position for some time.
I don’t think hitting is particularly physically painful for a dog, of course I am assuming we are not talking about beating a dog to the point of injury here. If you’ve ever watched a personal protection dog in training, or a pig dog working, they aren’t too upset by blows when they are in drive. I believe strongly that the effect is from psychological damage or emotional trauma.
If we reduce our arguments to measures or comparisons of pain, then almost anything can be justified. Pain, stress and fear are a natural, inescapable part of life. That doesn’t mean that just because dogs are always going to experience pain, stress or fear that any form of pain, stress or fear is either useful or acceptable.
One thing I will add. I don’t think inexperienced people should try to deal with their own dog aggression problems. Things can and do go wrong and there’s a lot more to consider than just basic consequences for actions (as the OP has found out). I know lots of people with common sense who cannot fix dog aggression problems, even experienced dog owners. In fact all my clients are referred from other dog trainers who see the sense in referring.
I’m not trying to debate your success, certainly not deny it. Punishment works, no doubt about it. I know that you don’t deny that my methods work, either, and I appreciate that.
Just something to consider though, we do see dogs who have been punished for resource guarding in the past who, at some point, decide to test the waters again. This can be an escalation, and it could be a child, a visitor, another dog or someone else who cops it.
Whilst they no longer display the outward signs of resource guarding on a daily basis, some still feel that they have something to guard. Some even feel more anxious about the resource they want to guard as a result of the punishment.
These days we address the causes of resource guarding. The dog no longer feels as if he has something to guard. The results are more reliable across a broader range of dogs and owners, and easier to implement.
In wild packs of wolves even the most submissive wolf is ALLOWED to guard food from the alpha. It’s not an attempt to climb the ranks, it’s an attempt to gain drive satisfaction (thus ensuring survival). Whilst I do recommend pre-emptive action on resource guarding, or immediate remedial action if it occurs (treating the cause, not the symptoms) there needn’t be any concern that it is an attempt to “climb the ranks”.
I can guarantee it. My diaper-clad daughter at the age of two wanted to feed the dogs some breakfast, so we went outside with a bowl of food which she dropped on the pavers. I went to grab the camera, when I turned around she was putting the food back in the bowl, taking it literally from under my dog’s mouth. I took the photo, no reason not to.
This is a 90lb working line german shepherd who is trained to bite (none of her littermates are pets), very territorial, and made a successful attempt at resource guarding as an adolescent. I didn’t ever punish it, just taught her that hands around her food was a good thing, every so often it meant better food. Not a reason to take umbrage.
While I don’t recommend what my daughter did as a good thing to do, I had absolutely no concerns at all. If I hadn’t been there it wouldn’t have mattered either.
The submissive wolf/alpha wolf example was to illustrate that it’s not a dominance issue, it’s just a behaviour issue.