Morgentaler and Touliatos: Keep Estrogen In a Certain Range

Pharma TRT
24

It’s pointless hyperbole, it’s like saying that a chemical used in floor mats is in some breads. It doesn’t matter what else something is used for chemicals/drugs all have a lot of different uses, original or alternate uses are irrelevant.
Your intent seems to be to demonize with this not to advance your arguments of appropriateness of the treatment.

2 Likes
25

Got it. So you have no evidence to support any statement you’re making. You’re confirming these are baseless claims with zero indication of any of it in the medical literature.

Thanks for confirming.

26

I don’t own the YouTube channel. Steven Devos does. I have never made a penny off the videos, nor do I sell any products, nor do I get referral fees from doctors. I’m a successful businessman in an area that has zero to do with this stuff. Somehow everyone is aware of this except for you. Ignorance of the highest degree.

27

This is the problem with the argument. It is not “Many”. There are a small percentage of men that need an AI. The argument that teenagers don’t need one (Sorry @dbossa) isn’t a solid argument either. Someone that needs medical intervention to have sufficient testosterone would conceivably have issues with other hormones down chain aas well. It depends on the problem. There ARE some with legitimate need, there are many, many more being given something when they would be better off without an AI. There should NEVER be rush to add a med, of any kind, to a situation. It is good practice to use the minimum effective amount of any necessary drug, and as few meds as possible. Every new med brings possible side-effects and conflicts with other meds. “I’m retaining water”, or “I’m emotional” are pretty far from legitimate diagnostic reasons for introduction of an off-label drug.

4 Likes
28

I have elevated E and Im living with its side effects. Good libido, good mood, hard dick, good bone density, and few others that I hardly notice. The main thing is that E will never surpass T. Be civil and use words that are conducive to a conversation between men. Members really need to stop their feeble attempts at virtual mic drops.

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31

Aren’t you charging for consults now?

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but the idea that you’re not benefiting from your position isn’t accurate.

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32

There are places that do this sort of thing, just not in the US. I am aware of some in Costa Rica where the ex-pats live.

33

They do, in the US, I’ve found at least 2

35

For what it’s worth my place offered both without even explaining the impact lol. Those kinds of clinics probably don’t understand it themselves.

37

Can you explain (or link to one if you already have) why this would be? I assumed they were additive

39

You said in another post that taking var or winnie drops your shbg but you wont come ahead in terms of free T, I would like to understand it better since I see you have good knowledge
Thanks

40

I started billing for my time doing ‘opinion only’ consults 3 weeks ago. I’m booked solid. I couldn’t keep up with the free messages anymore. This is the first time I’ve earned anything with my knowledge. To suggest clickbait or anything else is nonsense.

42

Thanks man

43

If my SHBG is already low and I’m on small daily shots of T anyway, adding Var would seem to have a smaller impact then?

Thanks, I’ve got a lot of reading to do lol

44

This video was literally just posted.

45

I don’t mean to sound like I’m attacking you personally, but as a physician who is a TRT pt (but not a TRT provider), I feel a need to respond to some of this.

So? I inject drugs originally developed to treat cancer into people’s eyes for non-cancerous conditions dozens of times a week. Drugs get repurposed all the time. What you’re doing here is not making a good faith, evidence-based argument against AI use, but rather attempting to frighten men into not using it by vilifying the compound itself. (It’s a CANCER drug! A LADY CANCER drug!) I hope that, upon reflection, you will agree this is not only specious; it is also unscientific and irresponsible.

Speaking of specious…Literally every substance in the universe–including both AIs and test cyp, but also seemingly mundane ones such as water, oxygen, etc–is potentially toxic. As Paracelus (sp?) noted a few years back, the dose makes the poison. So the fact that something is ‘toxic’ is not an argument either for or against its use.

Again, specious. This statement is true of literally every medical intervention on the planet, ie, it should only be used if/when its potential benefits are likely to outweigh its perceived risks. Further, you are again attempting to vilify AIs by implying they are a high-risk, last resort, Hail Mary/Broken Arrow type intervention. This is unwarranted–and as pointed out above, deeply inappropriate.

Having scanned a few of your posts, I have concluded the following:

  1. You have taken a deep dive into the TRT literature; and
  2. you surfaced from that dive having netted only studies that confirmed your pre-existing conclusions regarding AI use.

That is, while you may have read a great deal, it seems as though you have been moved only by studies that confirmed your opinions. In other words, you approach the medical literature in a manner opposite to what is appropriate–you let your conclusions shape your understanding of the literature rather than let your understanding of the literature shape your conclusions. Consider your claim that “there is literally not a single study out there that demonstrates the need to block or manage estradiol in a man.” This is so patently false as to be ludicrous. And if you truly believe it–that is, if it reflects your sincere understanding of the TRT literature–then my assertion about your approach to the literature is confirmed.

And to the subforum in general, let me be clear: I am not arguing that everyone should be on an AI. Nothing I said here should be construed as medical advice one way or the other in that regard. The only advice I would give is that everyone should seek care from a qualified medical professional. (And recall that I am not a TRT provider, so I have no skin in this game.) Additionally, I would urge everyone to bear in mind that, just because someone writes authoritatively and with an easy command of medical-ese, it does not follow that s/he knows what they’re talking about. This subforum has a checkered history in that regard; ie, posters who seemed to know their stuff, only to be revealed later as frauds, hucksters and posers. (To be clear, I am making general comments here, not referring specifically to @dbossa.)

5 Likes
46

I need to run but I’ll leave a quick reply:

  1. I uses to take an AI. I was convinced estradiol was the cause of all my issues. I know better now.

  2. Every single physician I deal with used to prescribe AIs but don’t anymore because they know better now.

  3. The docs that still prescribe it clearly haven’t caught up and are doing things based in no evidence in the literature.

  4. Watch this and tell me where he has gone wrong, considering you are a physician:

Feel free to let me know your thoughts after watching it.

50

Mine did. But that was 3.5yrs ago and perhaps it’s gotten a little harder for them to justify it? I know the t-mill my BIL is going to can prescribe just about everything but oxandrolone is not on the list.

52

You’re too scientific here and too caught up with the numbers and the ranges. One of these days you and I should have a proper chat by phone :wink:

If I targeted my free T to be in the mid range of this ridiculous range we have, I’d be one miserable S.O.B.