More Cop Fails

flipcollar · October 22, 2012, 8:49pm

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
I dont care how christian she is, you dont have a gun unless you intend to use it. She had a gun for self defense reasons. logic would state a warning shot would scare off an intruder (put yourself in the attackers shoes, you break into a house, the owner fires live rounds, you immediately leave). For whatever reason she felt it necessary to leave the house after calling the police. Most people would have locked themselves in a room waiting on the phone with dispatch for the police to arrive and clear the scene.

If you have not spoken with officers or been one you truly wouldnt understand. everyone is an armchair expert.

I recently attended a SWAT training on a particular situation experience of entering an close quaters (bus, hallway, room, house, apartment etc) and encountering a situation in which a subject presented themselves as a dont shoot, cant shoot or wont shoot. During the breaks officers brought up and quoted several instances in which they themselves were in situations in which they assessed the situation as "no-way-in-hell-ever did I think the subject would a) draw and fire b) carried c) had intent to kill d) was capable of shooting. We dont hear every officer involved shooting but they happen almost any day.

I have witnessed two officers tell stories in which they full believed there was no way any of the above would happen. 1 officer was shot once in the mouth and chest by a 14 year old suspect they were trying to remove from movie theater for a domestic disturbance call. The world Cray. When you are forced to go through trainind and constantly updated on incidents around the world about similar situations like the one above, you dont take things lightly any more. [/quote]

great post.

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 9:04pm

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20430332,00.html

Rare, but it does happen.

Vagina_Whisperer · October 22, 2012, 9:07pm

…

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 9:12pm

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
I dont care how christian she is, you dont have a gun unless you intend to use it. She had a gun for self defense reasons. logic would state a warning shot would scare off an intruder (put yourself in the attackers shoes, you break into a house, the owner fires live rounds, you immediately leave). For whatever reason she felt it necessary to leave the house after calling the police. Most people would have locked themselves in a room waiting on the phone with dispatch for the police to arrive and clear the scene.

If you have not spoken with officers or been one you truly wouldnt understand. everyone is an armchair expert.

I recently attended a SWAT training on a particular situation experience of entering an close quaters (bus, hallway, room, house, apartment etc) and encountering a situation in which a subject presented themselves as a dont shoot, cant shoot or wont shoot. During the breaks officers brought up and quoted several instances in which they themselves were in situations in which they assessed the situation as "no-way-in-hell-ever did I think the subject would a) draw and fire b) carried c) had intent to kill d) was capable of shooting. We dont hear every officer involved shooting but they happen almost any day.

I have witnessed two officers tell stories in which they full believed there was no way any of the above would happen. 1 officer was shot once in the mouth and chest by a 14 year old suspect they were trying to remove from movie theater for a domestic disturbance call. The world Cray. When you are forced to go through trainind and constantly updated on incidents around the world about similar situations like the one above, you dont take things lightly any more. [/quote]

Great post. The last sentence here rings true. Higher up likes to fill your email inbox with stories, or even worse videos of what happens when things go wrong. Priority number one is to not be the guy in the video that gets forwarded to everyone as a reminder.

Steel_Nation · October 22, 2012, 9:54pm

[quote]Trocchi wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]Matt_D wrote:
A tough situation with a sad ending for sure.[/quote]

x2

This will be ruled a clean shoot. I don’t like cops but I don’t see what choice they had. If I’m a LEO and somebody draws on me, it’s either shoot them and go home to my wife and kids, or not. That is the choice and I would take me over them every day of the week.[/quote]

You don’t even know if someone’s gun is loaded, or whether they will shoot you, or whether they even know they are drawing the gun at you…

All you know is that you will shoot to kill if you feel threatened :S

[/quote]

Yes if threatened with apparent deadly force I will shoot. I’m not the expert marksman that will say “shoot to kill” because I’m just looking to land rounds center-mass and end the threat to my life. I would prefer not to kill the person.

If you want to leave your life up to chance, that’s your decision.

angry_chicken · October 22, 2012, 10:07pm

Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.

Then we have bullshit laws in several states making it illegal to film police officers - how else are citizens supposed to hold them accountable?. When cops break the law how often do they end up in prison? They usually end up with NO convictions or just some administrative leave. This shit has been going on since there have been police, and it was brought to the lime light by the Rodney King beating (no cops did any time). It continues, and cops still hide behind that “blue wall”.

I’m not saying that ALL cops are bad. I am friends with several cops and my cousin is a Baltimore City cop. What I’m saying is that the internet is FILLED with video, pictures and testimony of how police are abusing their power, or acting incompetently WITH NO CONSEQUENCE. So why is it a surprise when people say things like, “fuck the police”? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I’ve been pulled over and BEATEN on FOUR separate occasions in Prince Georges County, MD. For NO REASON. I’m not interested in going into the particulars again, I’ve gone pages and pages in other threads about it. But I know for a fact that there are MANY crooked cops out there and they continue to abuse their power and run around abusing people unchecked. Nothing any of you “police apologists” say can dispute that fact.

The bottom line is with MORE accountability for police we will have LESS innocent victims of police brutality, cowardice and incompetence.

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 10:17pm

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.

Then we have bullshit laws in several states making it illegal to film police officers - how else are citizens supposed to hold them accountable?. When cops break the law how often do they end up in prison? They usually end up with NO convictions or just some administrative leave. This shit has been going on since there have been police, and it was brought to the lime light by the Rodney King beating (no cops did any time). It continues, and cops still hide behind that “blue wall”.

I’m not saying that ALL cops are bad. I am friends with several cops and my cousin is a Baltimore City cop. What I’m saying is that the internet is FILLED with video, pictures and testimony of how police are abusing their power, or acting incompetently WITH NO CONSEQUENCE. So why is it a surprise when people say things like, “fuck the police”? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I’ve been pulled over and BEATEN on FOUR separate occasions in Prince Georges County, MD. For NO REASON. I’m not interested in going into the particulars again, I’ve gone pages and pages in other threads about it. But I know for a fact that there are MANY crooked cops out there and they continue to abuse their power and run around abusing people unchecked. Nothing any of you “police apologists” can dispute that fact.

The bottom line is with MORE accountability for police we will have LESS innocent victims of police brutality, cowardice and incompetence. [/quote]

You seem to have a problem with the police and it’s clouding your judgement on this particular case.

angry_chicken · October 22, 2012, 10:21pm

I want to drill down on one important perception: being a cop is considered to just like being a firefighter, an EMT or other public servant. It’s considered by many to be just another “blue collar” job. It’s NOT. I’m an electrician, I work a blue collar job. My job can be dirty, dangerous and I’ve been to the hospital several times over the years as a result of work accidents. A carpenter is blue collar job. Plumbers, painters, brick masons, tin-knockers, iron workers, steam fitters, etc… are blue collar jobs. Fire fighters and EMT/first responders are blue collar jobs. These are not desk jobs, most of these jobs have an element of danger, some more than others, and they all require lifting, acquired skills/training and you are not guaranteed to stay clean on your shift. Most of them are well paying, and you can earn a comfortable living working them.

NONE of these jobs empower you to shoot other people. NONE of these jobs empower you to beat someone down for “not complying” with your orders. NONE of these jobs empower you to DETAIN someone against their will, and beat them if they object to being detained. That’s a HUGE difference, but cops are regularly lumped together with the rest of us blue collar workers.

angry_chicken · October 22, 2012, 10:26pm

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.

Then we have bullshit laws in several states making it illegal to film police officers - how else are citizens supposed to hold them accountable?. When cops break the law how often do they end up in prison? They usually end up with NO convictions or just some administrative leave. This shit has been going on since there have been police, and it was brought to the lime light by the Rodney King beating (no cops did any time). It continues, and cops still hide behind that “blue wall”.

I’m not saying that ALL cops are bad. I am friends with several cops and my cousin is a Baltimore City cop. What I’m saying is that the internet is FILLED with video, pictures and testimony of how police are abusing their power, or acting incompetently WITH NO CONSEQUENCE. So why is it a surprise when people say things like, “fuck the police”? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I’ve been pulled over and BEATEN on FOUR separate occasions in Prince Georges County, MD. For NO REASON. I’m not interested in going into the particulars again, I’ve gone pages and pages in other threads about it. But I know for a fact that there are MANY crooked cops out there and they continue to abuse their power and run around abusing people unchecked. Nothing any of you “police apologists” can dispute that fact.

The bottom line is with MORE accountability for police we will have LESS innocent victims of police brutality, cowardice and incompetence. [/quote]

You seem to have a problem with the police and it’s clouding your judgement on this particular case.

[/quote]

If the police pulled YOU over on FOUR separate occasions and beat your ass for no reason would you also have a problem with the police?

And how do the FACTS I mentioned regarding the thousands of videos, pictures and testimonials of police wrongdoing that exist “cloud my judgement”?

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 10:26pm

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.
[/quote]

Cops choose to be cops, and some choose to have families, yes. The woman who was shot and killed chose to point her gun at a police officer. The cop who shot, had the choice of killing her, or being killed. I don’t know how you can fault him for protecting his own life. Should he have just stood there and took fire from her?

What would have been the most suitable course of action?

For the record, the fact that these guys were cops doesn’t matter. If anyone threatens your life, you should have the right to protect it. That goes for anyone.

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 10:35pm

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I want to drill down on one important perception: being a cop is considered to just like being a firefighter, an EMT or other public servant. It’s considered by many to be just another “blue collar” job. It’s NOT. I’m an electrician, I work a blue collar job. My job can be dirty, dangerous and I’ve been to the hospital several times over the years as a result of work accidents. A carpenter is blue collar job. Plumbers, painters, brick masons, tin-knockers, iron workers, steam fitters, etc… are blue collar jobs. Fire fighters and EMT/first responders are blue collar jobs. These are not desk jobs, most of these jobs have an element of danger, some more than others, and they all require lifting, acquired skills/training and you are not guaranteed to stay clean on your shift. Most of them are well paying, and you can earn a comfortable living working them.

NONE of these jobs empower you to shoot other people. NONE of these jobs empower you to beat someone down for “not complying” with your orders. NONE of these jobs empower you to DETAIN someone against their will, and beat them if they object to being detained. That’s a HUGE difference, but cops are regularly lumped together with the rest of us blue collar workers. [/quote]

So you’re upset about public perception of police? I agree there is a difference between police and plumbers. What does that have to do with anything?

If a plumber was walking down the road and an old lady pointed a gun in his face, I would expect him to use as much force as necessary to prevent her from killing him.

?

DBCooper · October 22, 2012, 10:45pm

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.
[/quote]

Cops choose to be cops, and some choose to have families, yes. The woman who was shot and killed chose to point her gun at a police officer. The cop who shot, had the choice of killing her, or being killed. I don’t know how you can fault him for protecting his own life. Should he have just stood there and took fire from her?

What would have been the most suitable course of action?

For the record, the fact that these guys were cops doesn’t matter. If anyone threatens your life, you should have the right to protect it. That goes for anyone. [/quote]
The point is that we expect cops to not make the mistake of killing an innocent person, period. Who knows what the actual particulars of this case are, but one thing remains clear and that is that a person seeking protection from the police was instead killed by them.

If police officers are given the powers to carry guns and detain people and all that stuff that the normal citizen cannot do or cannot do without much difficulty, then they should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. We don’t know that this woman pointed her gun at the officers or not and I don’t think anyone coming from a neutral position would take the officers’ statements to that effect as evidence in and of itself.

The woman most likely did not make things easy for the police to deal with, but I place the burden of responsibility for properly handling this situation on the shoulders of the police, due to the higher standard we should hold them to. In this case, had they handled the situation properly there is no doubt in my mind that a person who had no intention of willingly shooting the police and who did NOT fire upon them would not be dead right now.

By default, I think it is more than fair to place the blame on the police for shootings that happen under similarly questionable circumstances.

Ripsaw3689 · October 22, 2012, 10:48pm

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. [/quote]

What the fuck man? Who gets a badge to shoot innocent people that you are sworn to protect?

On topic, the article said the old lady never used the gun before…WHY DOES SHE HAVE A FUCKING GUN IF SHE DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO USE IT? Especially if she is hard of hearing and unable to see well.

The officer was right in shooting her when she pointed a gun at them and did not comply with their demands.

WN76 · October 22, 2012, 11:35pm

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Whatever. If cops were actually held ACCOUNTABLE when they actually shot and killed innocent people, then there would be less shootings. If you CHOOSE to be a cop and you CHOOSE to have a family, then don’t use that as a fucking excuse to kill innocent people. No one “forces” a person to become a police officer. Those that choose to do so should be held to a HIGHER standard, not just a “reasonable” standard.
[/quote]

Cops choose to be cops, and some choose to have families, yes. The woman who was shot and killed chose to point her gun at a police officer. The cop who shot, had the choice of killing her, or being killed. I don’t know how you can fault him for protecting his own life. Should he have just stood there and took fire from her?

What would have been the most suitable course of action?

For the record, the fact that these guys were cops doesn’t matter. If anyone threatens your life, you should have the right to protect it. That goes for anyone. [/quote]
The point is that we expect cops to not make the mistake of killing an innocent person, period. Who knows what the actual particulars of this case are, but one thing remains clear and that is that a person seeking protection from the police was instead killed by them.

If police officers are given the powers to carry guns and detain people and all that stuff that the normal citizen cannot do or cannot do without much difficulty, then they should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. We don’t know that this woman pointed her gun at the officers or not and I don’t think anyone coming from a neutral position would take the officers’ statements to that effect as evidence in and of itself.

The woman most likely did not make things easy for the police to deal with, but I place the burden of responsibility for properly handling this situation on the shoulders of the police, due to the higher standard we should hold them to. In this case, had they handled the situation properly there is no doubt in my mind that a person who had no intention of willingly shooting the police and who did NOT fire upon them would not be dead right now.

By default, I think it is more than fair to place the blame on the police for shootings that happen under similarly questionable circumstances.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone argued that cops shouldn’t be held to a higher standard. That doesn’t mean waiting until fired upon from a person before returning fire. By then it’s too late. Action is always faster than reaction. If they point at you, and hit you with their first shot, there is no reaction. If someone points a gun at me, the show is over for one of us.

It doesn’t matter that she called the cops. They could have received a call to the house to pick up some fresh baked apple pies that the old lady made for the department. When they showed up, she pointed a gun at them and wouldn’t put it down. It’s a fucked up situation for sure, but that doesn’t change the reality of the threat.

How do you know her intent? She had already fired the gun and was pointing it at the cops. Anything could have happened.

If by blame, you mean a homicide investigation should take place to gather all the facts and determine if this was a clean shoot, then I agree with you. They’re not guilty until proven innocent.

I think there is a lot of arm chair quarter-backing going on from people who don’t have experience in this area.

batman730 · October 22, 2012, 11:37pm

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:

[quote]Trocchi wrote:

[quote]paulwhite959 wrote:

You say that like it’s bad or unjustified? I like living. Someone pointing a gun at me is a credible threat to me continuing to live.
I’ve got a lot of problems with law enforcement’s increasing militarization, but this doesn’t really strike me as a bad call on the cops part.[/quote]

IF it is loaded.

IF they will actually shoot you.

IF it is even a real gun.

IF there is nothing else you can do to stop them shooting at you.

Just because it looks like a gun, it doesn’t actually constitute a credible threat to your life. That is a FACT.

You can’t even find statistics on how many people the police in America have killed. The use of proportional force is clearly not a moral issue in the US - which should be a big concern.

The case of Jordan vs New London is perhaps the biggest inditement of American police, where:

“Jordan applied for a police job in New London and scored 33 on his qualification exam, equivalent to a 125 IQ. That’s one standard deviation above the mean Ã?Â¢?? smart, but no genius by any definition. The city refused to hire him, stating a preference for those who scored 27 or lower; the suggested median for a patrol officer was 21. New London’s argument was that smart people would find police work boring, and leave the profession after receiving expensive training. Jordan sued for discrimination Ã?Â¢?? and lost. The court ruled there’s nothing discriminatory about a city’s desire to ensure only C-students get to carry police badges.” (the Guardian newspaper).
[/quote]

So enlighten us how do you tell if a gun is loaded if your not the one handling it?[/quote]

Once you have been shot you can be absolutely certain it was loaded. Of course, you may not be justified in returning fire because you can’t be positive there are any rounds left in the magazine. Maybe there was only one in the spout and the gun’s empty now so you’re in no further danger.

Regarding the actual incident, as others have said, extremely sad, unfortunate outcome. No further opinion.

groo · October 23, 2012, 12:09am

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I want to drill down on one important perception: being a cop is considered to just like being a firefighter, an EMT or other public servant. It’s considered by many to be just another “blue collar” job. It’s NOT. I’m an electrician, I work a blue collar job. My job can be dirty, dangerous and I’ve been to the hospital several times over the years as a result of work accidents. A carpenter is blue collar job. Plumbers, painters, brick masons, tin-knockers, iron workers, steam fitters, etc… are blue collar jobs. Fire fighters and EMT/first responders are blue collar jobs. These are not desk jobs, most of these jobs have an element of danger, some more than others, and they all require lifting, acquired skills/training and you are not guaranteed to stay clean on your shift. Most of them are well paying, and you can earn a comfortable living working them.

NONE of these jobs empower you to shoot other people. NONE of these jobs empower you to beat someone down for “not complying” with your orders. NONE of these jobs empower you to DETAIN someone against their will, and beat them if they object to being detained. That’s a HUGE difference, but cops are regularly lumped together with the rest of us blue collar workers. [/quote]

So you’re upset about public perception of police? I agree there is a difference between police and plumbers. What does that have to do with anything?

If a plumber was walking down the road and an old lady pointed a gun in his face, I would expect him to use as much force as necessary to prevent her from killing him.

?[/quote]
What if some police executed a no knock warrant and it turns out they hit my house by mistake and I shoot a few of them because I see guns. Would that be ok? Or perhaps should I notice they are in uniform and only slightly more dangerous than old maude across the way with her handgun.
After all with nowhere near the same training(and lets be lol real about the actual level of firearms proficiency and discipline most regular leo has) I’d likely be expected not to kill them.

Obviously a high stress situation but have a bit of discipline and maybe hang in there a while before shooting down some old lady.

WN76 · October 23, 2012, 12:21am

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I want to drill down on one important perception: being a cop is considered to just like being a firefighter, an EMT or other public servant. It’s considered by many to be just another “blue collar” job. It’s NOT. I’m an electrician, I work a blue collar job. My job can be dirty, dangerous and I’ve been to the hospital several times over the years as a result of work accidents. A carpenter is blue collar job. Plumbers, painters, brick masons, tin-knockers, iron workers, steam fitters, etc… are blue collar jobs. Fire fighters and EMT/first responders are blue collar jobs. These are not desk jobs, most of these jobs have an element of danger, some more than others, and they all require lifting, acquired skills/training and you are not guaranteed to stay clean on your shift. Most of them are well paying, and you can earn a comfortable living working them.

NONE of these jobs empower you to shoot other people. NONE of these jobs empower you to beat someone down for “not complying” with your orders. NONE of these jobs empower you to DETAIN someone against their will, and beat them if they object to being detained. That’s a HUGE difference, but cops are regularly lumped together with the rest of us blue collar workers. [/quote]

So you’re upset about public perception of police? I agree there is a difference between police and plumbers. What does that have to do with anything?

If a plumber was walking down the road and an old lady pointed a gun in his face, I would expect him to use as much force as necessary to prevent her from killing him.

?[/quote]
What if some police executed a no knock warrant and it turns out they hit my house by mistake and I shoot a few of them because I see guns. Would that be ok? Or perhaps should I notice they are in uniform and only slightly more dangerous than old maude across the way with her handgun.
After all with nowhere near the same training(and lets be lol real about the actual level of firearms proficiency and discipline most regular leo has) I’d likely be expected not to kill them.

Obviously a high stress situation but have a bit of discipline and maybe hang in there a while before shooting down some old lady.[/quote]

Even with a no knock warrant, you go in announcing yourself and wearing uniforms which make you easy to identify.

Would it be OK? I don’t think this woman’s death is “OK” but with the given information so far, I think the officers should be cleared of any wrongdoing. If guys came into your house with guns and didn’t announce themselves as cops and you shot a few, well, you could have a defense.

If this lady was walking around her yard with a pistol, I’d expect the officers to take cover and order her to drop it. From the sound of it, they arrived and heard gunfire, took cover, ordered her to drop the weapon, she pointed it, they fired. It’s ugly, but there wasn’t really any other choice.

groo · October 23, 2012, 12:28am