[quote]scj119 wrote:
Oh and final thing… who you’re pitching against matters a whole lot too, as BONEZ said. I don’t think the Yankees have the BEST bullpen per say, a lot of their guys have flamed out elsewhere and I need to see more before I believe in the likes of Boone Logan (good if he keeps his walks down), Luis Ayala who hasn’t been good since 2007, and Soriano who just came back from the DL and is a ticking time bomb.
But, every pitcher in the AL East should be viewed as “better than the stats”… even though the Yankees pitchers don’t have to face the Yankee lineup.[/quote]
As someone who pitched at a nationally-ranked Div I program for three years, I can tell you that pitching in relief in tight situations is easily just as hard as throwing in less-tight situations when the hitters are better. I’d rather face Mark Texeira (who I have actually pitched against) in a 3-run game than virtually any other hitter with halfway decent power in a 1-run game. I like my chances of success better against Texeira in that situation because success is measured in…that’s right, victory. And with less pressure it is generally easier to pitch well, no matter what stat you use to determine what it means to “pitch well”.
The bottom line is this: The Giants’ bullpen throws more innings in tight games than ANY other team in baseball due to their beyond-anemic offense. And yet, they win more often in those situations than any other team. They strike batters out at a better rate than all other teams except the Braves, they give up less hits than any other team and they have closed out more tight ballgames than any other. I don’t know how else to measure a bullpen’s importance to a team than these statistics. If anyone else has a better measurement, I’m all ears.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
Oh and final thing… who you’re pitching against matters a whole lot too, as BONEZ said. I don’t think the Yankees have the BEST bullpen per say, a lot of their guys have flamed out elsewhere and I need to see more before I believe in the likes of Boone Logan (good if he keeps his walks down), Luis Ayala who hasn’t been good since 2007, and Soriano who just came back from the DL and is a ticking time bomb.
But, every pitcher in the AL East should be viewed as “better than the stats”… even though the Yankees pitchers don’t have to face the Yankee lineup.[/quote]
As someone who pitched at a nationally-ranked Div I program for three years, I can tell you that pitching in relief in tight situations is easily just as hard as throwing in less-tight situations when the hitters are better. I’d rather face Mark Texeira (who I have actually pitched against) in a 3-run game than virtually any other hitter with halfway decent power in a 1-run game. I like my chances of success better against Texeira in that situation because success is measured in…that’s right, victory. And with less pressure it is generally easier to pitch well, no matter what stat you use to determine what it means to “pitch well”.[/quote]
Makes sense, but to flip the argument a bit - I’d rather throw a pitcher with lots of strikeouts and very few walks into a tough situation than one with a good winning percentage.
One other thing: of all the teams’ bullpens that are deserving of being in this conversation in the first place, the Giants’ relievers are throwing to the worst catchers of all of them. Eli Whiteside and Chris Stewart are fucking horrendous catchers, defensively, and can’t throw runners out for shit.
And until the Giants picked up Beltran and Cabrera, one could make the case that their pitchers are throwing with the worst defense, range-wise and athletic-wise, behind them when compared to the other top bullpens. Anyone who’s pitched at a reasonably-high level understands that the defensive capabilities of the catcher you’re throwing to makes a HUGE difference when you’re pitching.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The bottom line is this: The Giants’ bullpen throws more innings in tight games than ANY other team in baseball due to their beyond-anemic offense. And yet, they win more often in those situations than any other team. They strike batters out at a better rate than all other teams except the Braves, they give up less hits than any other team and they have closed out more tight ballgames than any other. I don’t know how else to measure a bullpen’s importance to a team than these statistics. If anyone else has a better measurement, I’m all ears.[/quote]
The main thing I was hating against is I dislike the win and save stats. For one thing, I like my relievers to have very few decisions because oftentimes it means they came into a 1-run game and gave up a run, that’s a common way to get a win for a reliever (because now it’s a tie game crapshoot) and it obviously doesn’t mean he pitched well in that instance. And saves are just too easy to get… I think the tying run should have to be at least on deck, if not at the plate, for a save. Just my opinion, but it would really mean something then.
I actually don’t think there is one stat that measures pitching well (ERA is very dependent on your defense, and can overstate/understate how good the pitcher is. Especially for groundball pitchers)… personally I look at walk rate, strikeout rate, groundball rate and home run rates. Those are essentially the only things the pitchers can control. Once the ball’s in play it’s the defense’s job to turn it into outs.
I use ERA in arguments because it’s better than W-L, and most people aren’t receptive to looking at any other stats.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
Oh and final thing… who you’re pitching against matters a whole lot too, as BONEZ said. I don’t think the Yankees have the BEST bullpen per say, a lot of their guys have flamed out elsewhere and I need to see more before I believe in the likes of Boone Logan (good if he keeps his walks down), Luis Ayala who hasn’t been good since 2007, and Soriano who just came back from the DL and is a ticking time bomb.
But, every pitcher in the AL East should be viewed as “better than the stats”… even though the Yankees pitchers don’t have to face the Yankee lineup.[/quote]
As someone who pitched at a nationally-ranked Div I program for three years, I can tell you that pitching in relief in tight situations is easily just as hard as throwing in less-tight situations when the hitters are better. I’d rather face Mark Texeira (who I have actually pitched against) in a 3-run game than virtually any other hitter with halfway decent power in a 1-run game. I like my chances of success better against Texeira in that situation because success is measured in…that’s right, victory. And with less pressure it is generally easier to pitch well, no matter what stat you use to determine what it means to “pitch well”.[/quote]
Makes sense, but to flip the argument a bit - I’d rather throw a pitcher with lots of strikeouts and very few walks into a tough situation than one with a good winning percentage.
How was it pitching to Tex?
[/quote]
Believe it or not, I struck him out on four pitches. Two-seamer away for strike one (I’m a righty), slider away for ball one, two-seamer away for strike two and a four-seamer under his hands for strike three. It was when we were both 18 and playing in the semi-finals of the Pony Baseball World Series at the Palomino level. We won and then won the championship. I faced him twice and he reached on an error the first time up (a one-hop pissrod to our first baseman who bobbled it and then made a bad throw to me covering first)
And if you look at the strikeout thing, the Giants strike out more hitters per 9 innings than any other bullpen aside from the Braves. I do know that their staff in general walks a lot of batters but I think those numbers come primarily from their starters. Sanchez, Lincecum and Zito all have a tendency to run up some high walk totals at times.