[quote]PB Andy wrote:
jesus… was watching the Sox/Blue Jays game and apparently a fan had a heart attack right there in the front row. They didn’t go to commercial and were resuscitating him right there in front of everyone, even while they were carting him out. Pretty messed up. [/quote]
He died. Just said it on local news
Did this Cabrera suspension catch everyone off-guard?
Or did you guys already discuss it when the initial rumors surfaced in July?
[quote]Last month, a rumor was passed around about a player testing positive for drug use and being suspended for 50 games. Unlike most rumors flying around the Twitterverse, this one made it to mass media, creating a minor firestorm and a handful of headaches. The player involved? Melky Cabrera.
This afternoon, another story hit the airwaves, this one better sourced than the one above. Melky Cabrera had tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone in his blood, triggering the 50-game suspension for a first-time violator of MLB’s drug testing agreement with the players’ association.[/quote]
That’s from ESPN.com and here’s the linked article that “made it to mass media,” from some weeks back:
Nah, there’s always tons of rumours flying around. Only a small % of them ever end up being true.
Especially with baseball and steroids. Whenever an athlete has an outstanding season out of nowhere the steroids rumours seem to crop up without fail.
Jose Bautista was tested a dozen times over the course of two years and people still think he’s juicing.
[quote]chillain wrote:
Did this Cabrera suspension catch everyone off-guard?
Or did you guys already discuss it when the initial rumors surfaced in July?
[quote]Last month, a rumor was passed around about a player testing positive for drug use and being suspended for 50 games. Unlike most rumors flying around the Twitterverse, this one made it to mass media, creating a minor firestorm and a handful of headaches. The player involved? Melky Cabrera.
This afternoon, another story hit the airwaves, this one better sourced than the one above. Melky Cabrera had tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone in his blood, triggering the 50-game suspension for a first-time violator of MLB’s drug testing agreement with the players’ association.[/quote]
That’s from ESPN.com and here’s the linked article that “made it to mass media,” from some weeks back:
http://www.csnbayarea.com/baseball-san-francisco-giants/giants-talk/A-public-apology-to-Melky-Cabrera?blockID=747609&feedID=2539
[/quote]
When that story initially came out I heard all about it out here. I didn’t think anything of it at the time because it was immediately backtracked upon by all the related parties other than the initial anonymous source or whatever.
BUT…I thought to myself at the time that it wouldn’t have surprised me if it was true. But it seemed to have been discredited so quickly that I completely forgot about it and never really gave it much thought at all. In fact, it wasn’t until about 5 hours after I first heard Melky was done that I remembered about the Baggarly story from a few weeks ago. I was more concerned about what I was going to do with my fantasy team. However, I was able to convince this dipshit Dodger fan in 8th place to give me Scutaro and Beltran for Hanley Ramirez. I’m deep as shit at thrid base even without Ramirez, so it was a total rape job and Beltran makes a pretty damn good replacement for Cabrera.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Nah, there’s always tons of rumours flying around. Only a small % of them ever end up being true.
Especially with baseball and steroids. Whenever an athlete has an outstanding season out of nowhere the steroids rumours seem to crop up without fail.
Jose Bautista was tested a dozen times over the course of two years and people still think he’s juicing.[/quote]
Buster Olney said earlier today that he had spoken with an anonymous baseball executive (affiliated with a team, not MLB office) who apparently went down a list of players with Olney who he thought were all on some sort of PED. I’m sure Bautista was on that list. After hearing Victor Conte’s interview it sounds like a lot of players are still cheating but are still one step ahead of the league. I hate to say it, but I think Conte has some legit credibility on this issue. He knows exactly what sort of methods are being applied and according to him, he’s spoken with current players who have shown him exactly what the latest and greatest methods are. It’s not like the days of Bonds when he was running Sustemed, Winny, Clen, Deca and who knows what else all in the same cycle. But the players are probably still finding ways to cheat the system and benefit from it. I don’t think that anyone here believes for one second that Braun wasn’t also cheating and simply got away with it due to a bullshit technicality. Cabrera’s just the dumbass that got caught, The tone of the Giants players’ comments about him indicated that they’re pretty fucking pissed at him and not that supportive.
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
At least him admitting he did it is like someone who commits a crime and says fuck it, I don’t need a lawyer, I did it, i’m guilty. That rarely ever happens these days. I don’t have respect for the guy for taking whatever he was taking.[/quote]
from Buster Olney’s blog: Buster Olney Blog- ESPN
… It’s apparent that as players weigh the possible risks and rewards of using performance-enhancing drugs, in baseball, crime can still pay. Handsomely.
“There’s more work to be done with the [drug] policy,” a veteran player conceded on Wednesday evening. “I think almost all players want a level playing field – that’s what important to them. If the policy isn’t deterring players, then that’s a problem.”
To Cabrera’s credit, he didn’t read from the my-dog-ate-my-homework script after news of his positive test broke. He was honest, in the statement released in his name: “My positive test was the result of my use of a substance I should not have used. I accept my suspension under the Joint Drug Program and I will try to move on with my life. I am deeply sorry for my mistake and I apologize to my teammates, to the San Francisco Giants organization and to the fans for letting them down.”
But if Cabrera had been truly regretful, then he wouldn’t have gone through the appeals process, which, for him, began sometime in the last 10 days of July. He was fully prepared to beat the system, to add tens of millions of dollars to his new contract, and when he was caught, well, that’s when he’d put his hands in the air and surrendered…
…These would be an important means in assuring that cheating players would be face career-threatening risks, rather than a penalty that is light enough that the Melky Cabreras of the world would seek ways to beat the system – to rob the marketplace.
Cabrera not only would have essentially been deceiving his next employer, of course, but he could have directly hurt other players in the market. If Cabrera had gone into free agency without a suspension, wielding those huge numbers, then players like Shane Victorino would have been naturally pushed lower down the pecking order, as the older (and less desirable) player. If Cabrera had gotten an $85 million deal from the Giants, that may well have impacted their decision whether to re-sign Hunter Pence at some point.
Melky Cabrera is a cheater – not only in how he competed, but in how he tried to beat the system. Until the players more severely punish those who are caught, the temptation to try will only grow, as the compensation does.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I hate to say it, but I think Conte has some legit credibility on this issue. He knows exactly what sort of methods are being applied and according to him, he’s spoken with current players who have shown him exactly what the latest and greatest methods are. It’s not like the days of Bonds when he was running Sustemed, Winny, Clen, Deca and who knows what else all in the same cycle. But the players are probably still finding ways to cheat the system and benefit from it. [/quote]
Agreed. Its not like he’s got an obvious anti-establishment agenda (ie. Tim Donaghy) nor is he a typical ex-con either (ie. chock full of uninformed opinions)
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’m sure Bautista was on that list.[/quote]
I’m glad to know you’re sure.
Still missing the 2010 and 2011 mlb threads I see.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I’m sure Bautista was on that list.[/quote]
I’m glad to know you’re sure.
Still missing the 2010 and 2011 mlb threads I see.[/quote]
It’s a list of people who an anonymous executive SUSPECTS are on steroids. It’s a list this executive compiled, not someone else. So yes, I am sure that this executive probably had Bautista on his list. That says nothing about whether or not he actually has cheated, only that some GM or whatever thinks he is.
That being said, after hearing some of the stuff Conte has said it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Bautista were indeed cheating. I mean, after all, if Cabrera’s sudden surge in production was alleged evidence that he wasn’t legit, why wouldn’t Bautista be under the same suspicion? Besides, Cabrera was probably tested just as much as Bautista in the last couple years and he didn’t fail any tests at all. Until he did.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
It’s a list of people who an anonymous executive SUSPECTS are on steroids. It’s a list this executive compiled, not someone else. So yes, I am sure that this executive probably had Bautista on his list. That says nothing about whether or not he actually has cheated, only that some GM or whatever thinks he is. [/quote]
Have you seen the list or are you just speculating?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
if Cabrera’s sudden surge in production was alleged evidence that he wasn’t legit, why wouldn’t Bautista be under the same suspicion? [/quote]
Not really the same thing at all. Melky was TERRIBLE for 5 FULL major league seasons. Bautista was terrible for 2 FULL seasons + 2 with inconsistent playing time as a bench bat. He also made legitimate changes in his swing.
I think Melky’s results weren’t all steroids, likely a combination of being a BABIP baby + legitimate improvement + drugs.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Besides, Cabrera was probably tested just as much as Bautista in the last couple years and he didn’t fail any tests at all. Until he did.[/quote]
Good players get tested way more often.
You keep saying Bautista is probably on this list without having actually seen it yourself.
Bautista had only one season with 500 PAs before figuring it out. Melky had 4.
On top of that Melky’s level of plate discipline has remained constant throughout his career while Bautista’s has improved almost every year he’s been in the league.
Plus Melky is slimy as fuck and Bautista is not.
The Giants game is on here and I actually have time to watch it today. Unfortunately I get Vogelsong, just my luck.
Last 2 occasions I caught a few innings of the Giants they were Both Lincecum starts.
Vogelsong did not last very long today. I like how Quentin got upset he got hit by Vogelsong. Quentin gets hit all time so I don’t see what the big deal was.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Bautista had only one season with 500 PAs before figuring it out. Melky had 4.
On top of that Melky’s level of plate discipline has remained constant throughout his career while Bautista’s has improved almost every year he’s been in the league.
[/quote]
The speculation about Bautista is still warranted. Call him an unfair victim of the post-steroid era if you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that, no matter what, when a player has a huge season and hits about double his previous career high in HRs a couple years in a row, regardless of what changes were made or whatever, there is going to be speculation about how those improvements came about.
I’m not saying that the speculation is accurate, only that the speculation has merit and I can’t blame anyone for thinking this way anymore. And while I haven’t seen the list and I, too, am purely speculating, the executive specifically mentioned players who have huge years out of nowhere, which is essentially what Bautista did. I don’t care what kind of changes he made or what kind of career path he was projecting toward. When you hit 13 home runs in one year (even if they only came in 113 games) for a team that traded the infamous “player to be named later” to get you, and then the next year you hit 50+ home runs…I’m sorry, but there’s going to be speculation and it’s not crazy or unjustified.
I mean, if a guy who has never hit more than, what? 15? 16 home runs in a season and then hits 52 or whatever, are you trying to tell me that suspecting he is on steroids is totally out of line? Who fucking cares how often he’s been tested? No one gets caught the first time they do anything. People get caught when they’ve got away with something so often that they become complacent or they get too greedy. As in virtually every aspect of life, the cheaters are always one step ahead of those trying to catch them.
But again, just to clarify, I am not personally saying that I think Bautista is on steroids of any kind, nor am I saying that his remarkable improvement is not legit. All I’m saying is that, given the current climate and the climate we just went through in baseball, it isn’t out of the question or inappropriate at all to suspect a guy like Bautista is cheating. I don’t necessarily think he is or isn’t and I don’t really care whether he is or not. But if he were to test positive, it would not surprise me in the least. I don’t think there is a single player in the majors now who I would be surprised to find out was cheating. Honestly, it wouldn’t even surprise me very much at all to find out that a guy like Posey or Ichiro or someone like that was cheating.
And just stop with all the statistical justifications for what Bautista has done. You sound as pathetic as all the Giants fans who blindly tried to argue against the obvious about Bonds (i.e. WestCoast, who has essentially been shamed from this place for his incessant support of a serial woman-beater and someone who habitually cheated on his wives and treated his family like shit.) No amount of statistical support is going to tell any of us what is in the blood/urine of a professional athlete.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
And just stop with all the statistical justifications for what Bautista has done. You sound as pathetic as all the Giants fans who blindly tried to argue against the obvious about Bonds (i.e. WestCoast, who has essentially been shamed from this place for his incessant support of a serial woman-beater and someone who habitually cheated on his wives and treated his family like shit.) No amount of statistical support is going to tell any of us what is in the blood/urine of a professional athlete.[/quote]
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I mean, if a guy who has never hit more than, what? 15? 16 home runs in a season and then hits 52 or whatever, are you trying to tell me that suspecting he is on steroids is totally out of line? Who fucking cares how often he’s been tested? No one gets caught the first time they do anything. People get caught when they’ve got away with something so often that they become complacent or they get too greedy. As in virtually every aspect of life, the cheaters are always one step ahead of those trying to catch them.
And just stop with all the statistical justifications for what Bautista has done. You sound as pathetic as all the Giants fans who blindly tried to argue against the obvious about Bonds (i.e. WestCoast, who has essentially been shamed from this place for his incessant support of a serial woman-beater and someone who habitually cheated on his wives and treated his family like shit.) No amount of statistical support is going to tell any of us what is in the blood/urine of a professional athlete.[/quote]
The reason I think it’s dumb to single out Bautista is because there is no way to really know who is cheating by looking at performance. There are players across the board in terms of talent level who’ve been caught taking steroids, from Triple A, utility infielders, average regulars to superstars. A large jump in performance is no more an indicator than someone putting up the exact saying numbers over the course of their career.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I mean, if a guy who has never hit more than, what? 15? 16 home runs in a season and then hits 52 or whatever, are you trying to tell me that suspecting he is on steroids is totally out of line? Who fucking cares how often he’s been tested? No one gets caught the first time they do anything. People get caught when they’ve got away with something so often that they become complacent or they get too greedy. As in virtually every aspect of life, the cheaters are always one step ahead of those trying to catch them.
And just stop with all the statistical justifications for what Bautista has done. You sound as pathetic as all the Giants fans who blindly tried to argue against the obvious about Bonds (i.e. WestCoast, who has essentially been shamed from this place for his incessant support of a serial woman-beater and someone who habitually cheated on his wives and treated his family like shit.) No amount of statistical support is going to tell any of us what is in the blood/urine of a professional athlete.[/quote]
The reason I think it’s dumb to single out Bautista is because there is no way to really know who is cheating by looking at performance. There are players across the board in terms of talent level who’ve been caught taking steroids, from Triple A, utility infielders, average regulars to superstars. A large jump in performance is no more an indicator than someone putting up the exact saying numbers over the course of their career.
[/quote]
No, you are incorrect. A large jump in performance is EXACTLY the sort of indicator that something else may be going on. They are called PERFORMANCE-ENHANCING DRUGS for a reason. They enhance your performance in a very short time, sometimes with the very first injection and/or ingestion. So when I see that sort of jump in production, of course there is every reason to think something else may be going on. You can definitely look at performance. How many players from the steroid era who experienced dramatic jumps in their performance, in some cases jumps that aren’t nearly as dramatic as Bautista’s between 2009 and 2010, were not credibly linked in some way to steroid use?
The reason I single out Bautista is because he is a relevant player in this thread, given that he appears to be the favorite player of one of the four regular contributors to this thread. In general, I am not singling him out.
Again, I am not saying that a jump in performance is a clearcut EVIDENCE or PROOF that someone is on steroids, only that said jump is a very legitimate reason for suspicion. After all, why else do you think Bautista, as you claim, has been tested so often?
Gotta agree w db on bautista. In this day in age, it almost naive not to atleast suspect bautista has used. Reminds me of luis gonzales. 16 Hr guy then bam 50.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Gotta agree w db on bautista. In this day in age, it almost naive not to atleast suspect bautista has used. Reminds me of luis gonzales. 16 Hr guy then bam 50. [/quote]
I always think of Brady Anderson’s 50 HRs or whatever… from the leadoff spot.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
No, you are incorrect. A large jump in performance is EXACTLY the sort of indicator that something else may be going on. They are called PERFORMANCE-ENHANCING DRUGS for a reason. They enhance your performance in a very short time, sometimes with the very first injection and/or ingestion. So when I see that sort of jump in production, of course there is every reason to think something else may be going on.[/quote]
Not everyone responds well to PEDs. For some, it doesn’t do a whole lot, for others it has a great effect. I’m sure there are players who use/have used and saw little returns on the field.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You can definitely look at performance. How many players from the steroid era who experienced dramatic jumps in their performance, in some cases jumps that aren’t nearly as dramatic as Bautista’s between 2009 and 2010, were not credibly linked in some way to steroid use? [/quote]
I’m not sure, but dramatic increases rarely happen period.
Here’s a list of players that have been caught or admitted to using:
http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html
I see quite a few players with a fairly consistent level of play throughout their careers. Here’s another link of all players to have been suspended either at the Major league level or while playing for a Major League affiliate.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The reason I single out Bautista is because he is a relevant player in this thread, given that he appears to be the favorite player of one of the four regular contributors to this thread. In general, I am not singling him out.
Again, I am not saying that a jump in performance is a clearcut EVIDENCE or PROOF that someone is on steroids, only that said jump is a very legitimate reason for suspicion. After all, why else do you think Bautista, as you claim, has been tested so often?[/quote]
I get it, you’re not accusing JoBau.
In my opinion, he’s as likely to have cheated as any other player baseball not linked to steroids.