Missing Link Between Man and Apes Found

On your claim that I’m not going to accept the strange statement you made above “no matter what”:

Please read my post explaining why the scientist did not say it was the missing link but that it “may be” a transitional fossil, rather than “is.” I don’t know if reading it twice will make a difference, but it ought to be clear enough.

Or if your position is that because you are certain that there can be no link between man and earlier ape (not in the sense of man being broadly categorized as an ape) creatures that therefore the concept of a missing link is supposedly meaningless, then you are simply asserting the same thing that I said you were asserting. I have asserted nothing at all as to whether there is such a thing or not. Perhaps you didn’t notice.

(People who have an agenda behind their arguments, with no willingness to even potentially change views from facts but instead maintaining absolute dedication to their agenda, tend to assume and assert that others operate the same way. I suppose this is out of the general human tendency for projection. This is the only explanation I can find for your assertions that I supposedly – as you are – am agenda-driven on either this general question or in interpretation of the above article.)

On the ape issue: I was using the word “ape” as I am expecting that you do – not including man, Neanderthals, etc but meaning hominoids such as the gorilla, chimpanzee, and orangutan.

I was saying in the previous post that Homo habilis is, anatomically, not like the “apes” in that sense of the word. There is not some mistake wherein Homo habilis ought instead to have been characterized as another genus, or at least not according to the consensus use of the words in the science: whereas an “ape” would be.

I certainly don’t blame or criticize anyone for common use of the word ape and that is why I simply adopted your use, as I expect your use to be – unless you call man an ape? – because the technical terms are rather confusing and furthermore have shifted with time, and as personal opinion, in a dubious manner (based on DNA similarity rather than morphology: personally I would give more weight to the latter, but it’s an up-in-the-air matter there.) I do think that what I wrote was clear enough and fully expect that you knew what I meant, actually, with this particular criticism of yours being in the same category as the earlier “skeleton” vs “skeletons” criticism. That is to say, out of willfully wanting to misconstrue and claim error because you really dislike the whole subject and want to tar it in any way you can, valid or not. Or so it seems anyway.

  1. No. Also I highly doubt any scientist in the field thinks that.

  2. No. On this I am certain that no scientist in the field thinks that.

  3. Depends on how you define “missing link.” As above, I think you’ve set up a system for yourself that could not be satisfied even in a situation where man in fact descended from primitive apes and representative fossils from every thousand year period (for example) were found. You might not know whether your problem with a given fossil was that it was too early or too late, too far from modern man or too close, but you wouldn’t, it seems to me, accept it as being the missing link.

Can you specify what you would consider acceptable and proof of man being descended from earlier apes?

Is the “missing link” you require closer to modern man than is Homo habilis, or further away?

  1. I think it depends on what one means by “develop.”

Particularly when it turns out that not only is man’s DNA very closely related to that of apes, but even ERRORS are closely copied, in vast numbers, as well as utterly meaningless random variations such as equivalent nucleotide substitutions, it does seem to be a strained argument that man was created de novo with all these errors and random details coincidentally or deceptively copied over.

But to say it is impossible would be unwarranted.

Another position which I think makes much more sense for a creationist argument is that while the general process and history of evolution has a vast amount of evidence behind it, it is completely undemonstrated as to whether natural processes could, for example, result in a creature with the genetics for a fully-functioning three-chambered heart and associated circulatory and respiratory systems being born from parents with the genetics for two-chambered hearts, etc, those being the most advanced existing prior to this offspring being born.

Some will assert that it MUST be possible from natural processes because, well, creatures with 3-chambered hearts are now here, but that is a circular argument.

Similarly one could argue and there is no means by which we can judge it whatsoever that natural processes may be insufficient on their own to yield man from earlier hominans.

By the way, as a somewhat related sidetrack: While my use of the word would differ from the current scientific use, I would not myself characterize species such as Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, etc as being “human” and I doubt most people would, other than being told by scientists that they should do so. If they were here today, only if they could talk sufficiently well (which seems unlikely to be the case) and persuade us that they thought similarly to us, had similar feelings, etc, do I think it likely that people in general would consider them human. So I think the common use of the word “human” differs from the paleontological use.

Would Neanderthals be considered “human?” Closer call. I don’t know what people in general might think on that one. I wouldn’t be surprised if the answer were no, according to the common sense of the word.

Oh, and on the editor:

I don’t care much about whether a subtitle an editor gives an article is a completely sound distillation of the article or not. I don’t expect it to be. That’s just not something I’m going to get in a hubbub about. Routinely that is not the case even in rather common news stories: to expect it in a science story in a mass-market newspaper is unrealistic.

I get my conclusions from facts presented in an article (and other facts I know), not from predigested summaries put there as subtitles. The scientist in question spoke clearly and carefully enough.

No, the study of genetics has reached no apex.

Most certainly not all evidence is in. But there is a great deal of evidence showing that we have DNA which down even to errors and random features has every appearance of the great majority of it being copied from the same source as the DNA of apes.

But it cannot be said for a fact that it could not have been created de novo with vast numbers of the exact same flaws and random features. That would be a theoretical possibility. As personal opinion, I think it is strained.

Btw, on this subject, a thing that I think is of considerable interest but which is rarely looked at, and I haven’t done anything but seen the surface level of it, is that at least as far back as Moses Maimonides (who was, what, around 1100 AD? Somewhere around there) and perhaps at least as far back as Hillel, there were rabbis who insisted that the Earth was in fact vastly old and the Creation did not refer to as brief a period as commonly read nor was anywhere near so recent.

The first interesting thing is that some will have it that theological interpretations of relatively modern conception that come to the same conclusion are in fact bastardizations resulting from bowing to scientific findings, rather than relying on Scripture. But these theologians were saying this BEFORE the findings in question.

The second interesting thing, and this is the part that I do not know: Why did they conclude this?

Don’t try argueing over evolution vs. creationism. To believe creationism requires blind faith in a deity and a closed mind. To believe evolution as taught in schools requires that you listen to the teachers. However to actually understand anything about evolution requires an open and enquiring mind. The two mindsets are so different that it’s not worth debating between them.

Science is never about having arrived at the truth. It’s about searching for the truth and knowing you will never find it. The enitre scientific process works by trying to prove things wrong. Scientists love nothing more than trashing each others’ theorys. For you to claim that any scientist truely thinks he/she has everything figured out is foolish. When pushed into it by a layman a scientist will state the latest and best supported theory which is probably the current consensous on the subject. However in their head they will probably have about 12 other possible theorys which explain the evidence to some extent and another 20 which don’t.

If there was truely good evidence against evolution then someone would have published it by now. It would have been difficult (that is topic for another discuss about the merits of the current peer review system) but something as juicy as actually evidence against evolution would have made it though eventually.

[quote]lou21 wrote:
If there was truely good evidence against evolution then someone would have published it by now. It would have been difficult (that is topic for another discuss about the merits of the current peer review system) but something as juicy as actually evidence against evolution would have made it though eventually.[/quote]

This is what it comes down to, but no doubt old man push will have another “witty” comeback instead of a real argument.

…i’ll look forward to it. Just to remind you: maintaining a certain position in light of increasingly overwhelming evidence to the contrary is not commendable, but foolishness. There will come a time when you’ll have to admit to yourself that your beliefs aren’t to be taken literally. You’ve overcome one aspect of your repressive upbringing; i’m confident you’ll prevail on this one too…

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

…But it cannot be said for a fact that it could not have been created de novo with vast numbers of the exact same flaws and random features. That would be a theoretical possibility. As personal opinion, I think it is strained.[/quote]

I am NOT going to even remotely get into the technicalities of genetics but I do have another question. Is it possible if not even anything but reasonable to surmise that what appear to be “vast numbers of the exact same flaws and random features” might be viewed in a different manner as the young branch of genetics continues to advance and more evidence is shipped in?[/quote]

I think that that is a matter of mathematics and information theory rather than being limited in terms of genetic knowledge.

Viewing it simply as information, it would be equivalent to having extremely lengthy exam papers turned in, with it being found that not only was the vast majority of the wording identical, but a vast number of typographical errors present in one paper were also present dead verbatim in the other in the exact same way.

Someone trying to defend the student accused of copying could argue that perhaps in 600 years we’ll know more and will see how all this exact duplication, including even of errors and random features, could have occurred without transmission of the information between the students, but mathematically the odds are a googolplex to one against now and will still be a googolplex to 1 against 600 years from now or 6 million years from now.

I don’t believe it is a matter of there ever potentially being a mechanistic explanation for the DNA evidence that does not involve common ancestry. Rather the only argument against common ancestry is one equivalent to what a number of creationists have claimed about fossils: they never were living animals but were put in the ground at the time of Creation to make it LOOK as if there had been a distant past with differing animals living then. (Some say Satan put them there; others say God did.)

Each can decide for himself whether that sort of thing is a strained explanation.

Ditto for a claim that man’s DNA was created recently, not from common ancestry with the apes, but with a vast number of the same errors and random features placed in the DNA as the chosen manner of how to create man.

You guys…I always thought this was the missing link between man and ape! :slight_smile:

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
You guys…I always thought this was the missing link between man and ape! :)[/quote]

Man Pittbull is showing up all over the place. He is fossilized, in the video of the guys egging the Tea Party Bus. Where will Pitbull end up next.