Missing Link Between Man and Apes Found

[ephrem]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

YEC is not science, but feeds of real science in an attempt to rape and distort it. Without actual science YEC wouldn’t even exist…
[/quote]
That is a judgement.

A strong judgement.
I am not disputing whether you are right or wrong just pointing out an observation that this is the same “subjective evidence” of human behavior I witnessed in pious religious folk.

Is that proof you are just like the faithful?
Or is truth only objective observable facts?

Right, I said I wasn’t going to dance with any of you so I am back on my chair at the audience…

:)[/quote]

…you don’t have to reply if you don’t feel like it, but yes, it is a strong judgement based on fact. Every attempt by YEC’sts to discredit evolution uses scientific data acquired by real scientists. YEC’sts distort that data to fit it into their agenda. They lie about, and falsify, data in an attempt to prove something that can’t be proven AS IF science is actively out to disprove the existence of a deity. These attempts to bring the scienfific method down to the level of beliefs is downright stupid, and shows the willful misunderstanding of what science tries to accomplish…

[Alpha_F]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…you don’t have to reply if you don’t feel like it, but yes, it is a strong judgement based on fact. Every attempt by YEC’sts to discredit evolution uses scientific data acquired by real scientists. YEC’sts distort that data to fit it into their agenda. They lie about, and falsify, data in an attempt to prove something that can’t be proven AS IF science is actively out to disprove the existence of a deity. These attempts to bring the scienfific method down to the level of beliefs is downright stupid, and shows the willful misunderstanding of what science tries to accomplish…
[/quote]

I understand the issues that you have with what they are doing.

And whilst science is objective, factual, rational, logical and linear and all the qualities associated with the intellect I see human behavior that is no different from those in religion.

If you discern that “Team Bible” ( Them ) acts in fundamental ways that are like “Team Science”
( Us ) then maybe we could end this siege mentality of Them x Us which is precisely what puts me off organized religion and scientific societies.
( oh, well there is no such a thing as disorganized religion since all the organized people are the cornerstone of such societies.).

Not every scientist is like this but I see a lot of group mentality and sheep behavior which causes me to not trust science; in the same manner I don’t trust religion.

I said I was biased because I am Latina and grew up with a Bible for a pillow and another for a blanket. I like science and I see it for what it is; an abstraction and not the objective reality and concrete proof of isness of all that there is.

Scientists/Team Science may not express emotions and yet I sense emotion oozing out of your posts sometimes.
And judging instead of discerning ( and there is a huge observable difference here when this is in practice.) is a perhaps the strongest evidence to an emotionally driven reaction.
You discern with your senses and you judge with your heart.

When someone like me, who has observed this judgemental attitude permeate religion throughout my young years, sees the same underlying current ensuing from self-proclaimed authorities of science, it puts me right off.

I don’t see the difference between you and me.
When I see it I will acquiesce.
Until then I am not embracing anything and will keep traveling solo in my beliefs.
I know what I sense and I trust that what I sense is true.

When I see Team Science behave in a manner that is honorable, truthful and non-biased
( Global Warming: !?! ) then I shall lend them an ear.
For now, they have my eyes only. I will keep watching.

I have now gone completely personal, haven’t I?
Oh well, I am a person.

[anonym]

[quote]metal.head wrote:
i smell sarcasm

but is there any “that one secular scientist guy” out there, who is not religiously affiliated whatsoever, that believes in a YE? or is YE all christians who believe in biblical literal interpretation?

i actually googled the concept for a while, and found nothing.[/quote]

Yes, that was the reasoning given in the last thread for the mysterious absence of creationist research outside of strictly pro-creationism journals.

[metal_head]

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]metal.head wrote:
i smell sarcasm

but is there any “that one secular scientist guy” out there, who is not religiously affiliated whatsoever, that believes in a YE? or is YE all christians who believe in biblical literal interpretation?

i actually googled the concept for a while, and found nothing.[/quote]

Yes, that was the reasoning given in the last thread for the mysterious absence of creationist research outside of strictly pro-creationism journals.[/quote]

ah, thanks for the cliff’s notes, i was absent from those and not up to speed on the debates…

after reading this thread and the noah thread, i think i need a diazepam. people really like what they believe, dont they?

btw, i texted my hindu girlfriend at the hospital and explained that she’s going to hell, haha…silly polytheists

[ephrem]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…you don’t have to reply if you don’t feel like it, but yes, it is a strong judgement based on fact. Every attempt by YEC’sts to discredit evolution uses scientific data acquired by real scientists. YEC’sts distort that data to fit it into their agenda. They lie about, and falsify, data in an attempt to prove something that can’t be proven AS IF science is actively out to disprove the existence of a deity. These attempts to bring the scienfific method down to the level of beliefs is downright stupid, and shows the willful misunderstanding of what science tries to accomplish…
[/quote]

I understand the issues that you have with what they are doing.

And whilst science is objective, factual, rational, logical and linear and all the qualities associated with the intellect I see human behavior that is no different from those in religion.

If you discern that “Team Bible” ( Them ) acts in fundamental ways that are like “Team Science”
( Us ) then maybe we could end this siege mentality of Them x Us which is precisely what puts me off organized religion and scientific societies.
( oh, well there is no such a thing as disorganized religion since all the organized people are the cornerstone of such societies.).

Not every scientist is like this but I see a lot of group mentality and sheep behavior which causes me to not trust science; in the same manner I don’t trust religion.

I said I was biased because I am Latina and grew up with a Bible for a pillow and another for a blanket. I like science and I see it for what it is; an abstraction and not the objective reality and concrete proof of isness of all that there is.

Scientists/Team Science may not express emotions and yet I sense emotion oozing out of your posts sometimes.
And judging instead of discerning ( and there is a huge observable difference here when this is in practice.) is a perhaps the strongest evidence to an emotionally driven reaction.
You discern with your senses and you judge with your heart.

When someone like me, who has observed this judgemental attitude permeate religion throughout my young years, sees the same underlying current ensuing from self-proclaimed authorities of science, it puts me right off.

I don’t see the difference between you and me.
When I see it I will acquiesce.
Until then I am not embracing anything and will keep traveling solo in my beliefs.
I know what I sense and I trust that what I sense is true.

When I see Team Science behave in a manner that is honorable, truthful and non-biased
( Global Warming: !?! ) then I shall lend them an ear.
For now, they have my eyes only. I will keep watching.

I have now gone completely personal, haven’t I?
Oh well, I am a person.
[/quote]

…the reason why you’ve sensed emotion in my posts sometimes is simple: every single day we use real world applications that science gave us. There’s not one aspect of modern life that hasn’t benefitted from the scientific method, that has benefitted me, you and every YEC’st out there…

…that’s brushed aside when you start to doubt the scientific method used to study evolution. A field of study that’s brought us advances in modern medicine and DNA-research. I’m not saying we should accept all science without question, but that’s why there’s peer-review and years and years of experimentation and research to make sure theory stands up to scrutiny…

…Alpha F, i’m willing to reconsider my position and possibly recant what i said in this thread if you can give me one real world application or discovery that YEC’st science gave us, just one…

[anonym]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Eph continues to foolishly and inaccurately insist that creationists do not believe that adaptation/speciation/microevolution occur. It is THERE the “real world applications and discoveries” have been made.[/quote]

Well, most didn’t until it was proven beyond a doubt that such things DO occur, right?

[BackInAction]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Science is but a pawn in this debate. Faith and Hope are the king and queen.
[/quote]

And there’s your problem, right there.

[Rational_Gaze]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
When I see Team Science behave in a manner that is honorable, truthful and non-biased
( Global Warming: !?! ) then I shall lend them an ear.
For now, they have my eyes only. I will keep watching.[/quote]

Yes, let’s throw out the scientific method because of a media frenzy over some unethical behaviour by a small group of scientists. Burn the textbooks, throw the computers on the scrap heap, chuck the medicine in a river, let’s all retreat back into caves which we can trust implicitly.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Science is but a pawn in this debate. Faith and Hope are the king and queen.[/quote]

Let’s all hope for nuclear fusion, maybe it’ll be revealed in a vision if we have enough faith.

[anonym]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Eph continues to foolishly and inaccurately insist that creationists do not believe that adaptation/speciation/microevolution occur. It is THERE the “real world applications and discoveries” have been made.[/quote]

Well, most didn’t until it was proven beyond a doubt that such things DO occur, right?[/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

So I wouldn’t be able to hop on to, say ICR (a site you quite often turn to for references), and find quotes within the past decade or two saying that speciation has never been observed?

[Alpha_F]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…Alpha F, i’m willing to reconsider my position and possibly recant what i said in this thread if you can give me one real world application or discovery that YEC’st science gave us, just one…[/quote]

Eph, that is the precisely the problem:

I can’t give you anything.
The Bible can’t give you anything.
God can’t give you anything unless you are opened to receiving.

Never mind what YEC has contributed or not. Use your discernment. I don’t know any institution that holds the whole body of truth - that is why I am dissociated.

Another perspective is this: Can you rightfully say science has given us anything? Is knowledge a commodity, a possession that resulting knowledge can be given or withheld? If a scientist should with hold a fantastic invention, does that mean another man will never come up with the same idea somewhere else or at another time and space?

Isn’t knowledge out there for the taking, discoveries waiting to be made? Who or what is it that is "giving"us anything? If knowledge is there for the taking then it can only be shared.
As far as I am concerned, no one is in possession of it so that I should look up to them.

With holding knowledge to retain power is avarice; “giving” knowledge to exert power is the other side of the coin in this power play.

Like wise, you should go into the world, God or not, and claim knowledge for yourself using your power of discernment.
No single group can “give” you anything that you already don’t have or haven’t discovered yet.
Isn’t that the very premise of evolution? That should we all melt down tomorrow and the world started again things would just develop?

The issue I see here here isn’t so much with your passion for science, because passion for anything is admirable.
And whilst I may not agree with everything, I can and I do appreciate passion when someone displays it about a given thing. The issue is with a possible mental suit of armor you could be wearing in defence of science which can come across as religious ardor.

The only thing I can share with you ( No one can give you anything, except God but you don’t believe in Him so you are entirely your own man.) is:

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
And if you are going to give science the credit for “giving” us our daily bread then be prepared to be accused of being a “believer”.

Maybe you should accept this “label” and go with it for a while - see what happens, it may accomplish a refreshing change.
For one, your battle with Push will certainly take a new turn: It will change the dynamics of the shoot out.

[Alpha_F]

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
When I see Team Science behave in a manner that is honorable, truthful and non-biased
( Global Warming: !?! ) then I shall lend them an ear.
For now, they have my eyes only. I will keep watching.[/quote]

Yes, let’s throw out the scientific method because of a media frenzy over some unethical behaviour by a small group of scientists. Burn the textbooks, throw the computers on the scrap heap, chuck the medicine in a river, let’s all retreat back into caves which we can trust implicitly.[/quote]

You are overreacting.
I also wrote science has its place.
Just not at the altar.

[ephrem]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
When I see Team Science behave in a manner that is honorable, truthful and non-biased
( Global Warming: !?! ) then I shall lend them an ear.
For now, they have my eyes only. I will keep watching.[/quote]

Yes, let’s throw out the scientific method because of a media frenzy over some unethical behaviour by a small group of scientists. Burn the textbooks, throw the computers on the scrap heap, chuck the medicine in a river, let’s all retreat back into caves which we can trust implicitly.[/quote]

You are overreacting.
I also wrote science has its place.
Just not at the altar.

[/quote]

…the reverse is also true: the altar has no place in science…

[ephrem]

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…Alpha F, i’m willing to reconsider my position and possibly recant what i said in this thread if you can give me one real world application or discovery that YEC’st science gave us, just one…[/quote]

Eph, that is the precisely the problem:

I can’t give you anything.
The Bible can’t give you anything.
God can’t give you anything unless you are opened to receiving.

Never mind what YEC has contributed or not. Use your discernment. I don’t know any institution that holds the whole body of truth - that is why I am dissociated.

Another perspective is this: Can you rightfully say science has given us anything? Is knowledge a commodity, a possession that resulting knowledge can be given or withheld? If a scientist should with hold a fantastic invention, does that mean another man will never come up with the same idea somewhere else or at another time and space?

Isn’t knowledge out there for the taking, discoveries waiting to be made? Who or what is it that is "giving"us anything? If knowledge is there for the taking then it can only be shared.
As far as I am concerned, no one is in possession of it so that I should look up to them.

With holding knowledge to retain power is avarice; “giving” knowledge to exert power is the other side of the coin in this power play.

Like wise, you should go into the world, God or not, and claim knowledge for yourself using your power of discernment.
No single group can “give” you anything that you already don’t have or haven’t discovered yet.
Isn’t that the very premise of evolution? That should we all melt down tomorrow and the world started again things would just develop?

The issue I see here here isn’t so much with your passion for science, because passion for anything is admirable.
And whilst I may not agree with everything, I can and I do appreciate passion when someone displays it about a given thing. The issue is with a possible mental suit of armor you could be wearing in defence of science which can come across as religious ardor.

The only thing I can share with you ( No one can give you anything, except God but you don’t believe in Him so you are entirely your own man.) is:

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
And if you are going to give science the credit for “giving” us our daily bread then be prepared to be accused of being a “believer”.

Maybe you should accept this “label” and go with it for a while - see what happens, it may accomplish a refreshing change.
For one, your battle with Push will certainly take a new turn: It will change the dynamics of the shoot out.
[/quote]

…it’s a lovely message Alpha F, and i will take it to heart, but your message is also beside the point; the point is one post up…