[quote]ephrem wrote:
Truth is simple and succinct [imo] not convoluted and obtuse…
[/quote]
Is that an absolute? Or is it relative?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …ehm, what the Bible allows you to do is to justify any behavior you deem necessary in the pursuit of whatever, >>>[/quote]There are those who do exactly this.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< due to it’s multi-interpretable and utterly vague language. >>>[/quote]But not for this reason and thankfully they’re usually pretty easy to spot. This is again a vast subject, but suffice it to say that while I honestly do understand why you think this, on the very foundations of faith and morals there has been essential agreement since the 1st century. Even during times of severe suppression there has always been a remnant. Actually the notion of a remnant is practically a biblical doctrine unto itself(yet another story) Nothing I believe… nothing… originated with me. I know better. As a rather substantial student of cults and world religions I’ve seen what eye popping destructive heresies arise when someone shows up proclaiming the newest groovy revelation or interpretation that the church universal just hasn’t been up to discovering. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Calling that a comprehensive system of divine thought, well, that’s your right of course, but it continues to cause the same misconceptions this thread aims to clarify. Truth is simple and succinct [imo] not convoluted and obtuse…[/quote]As you will no doubt be not surprised to hear I simply disagree. It is a system and it is comprehensive. It lives in my spirit and mind and displays itself with every beat of my heart(and yours). I see it everywhere and in everything without exception and that just as plainly as the keyboard I’m typing this on. Of course this is all pathetic anti intellectual sophistry to you because as I told you maybe a year and a half or so ago, proof, by your earthbound standard is not possible. Indeed, by the very design of the God we have been discussing it is not possible.
I sincerely intend no condescending insult to you by any of this though it may unavoidably sound that way. Politics are one thing, but when it comes to the things of God I am in no position to look askance at anyone. I will say that men having every bit of the antagonism you do, and more, have been subdued and converted by the same loving merciful grace I have. Though once blind they too now see the same divine order in everything. I’ve known a couple.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Truth is simple and succinct [imo] not convoluted and obtuse…
[/quote]
Is that an absolute? Or is it relative?[/quote]
…it’s my opinion and therefore subjective…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Truth is simple and succinct [imo] not convoluted and obtuse…
[/quote]
Is that an absolute? Or is it relative?[/quote]
…it’s my opinion and therefore subjective…
[/quote]
You may be surprised to hear this, but this is why I have always had a measure of respect for you. Most people will not say this. Also in our very brief encounter a while back I alluded to above you were very cordial to me.
…that is, what religion is concerned anyway, foreign to me; that you’d accept something as truth without it being from/of yourself. Similar with political ideologies, i can’t wrap my head around it…
[quote]As you will no doubt be not surprised to hear I simply disagree. It is a system and it is comprehensive. It lives in my spirit and mind and displays itself with every beat of my heart(and yours). I see it everywhere and in everything without exception and that just as plainly as the keyboard I’m typing this on. Of course this is all pathetic anti intellectual sophistry to you because as I told you maybe a year and a half or so ago, proof, by your earthbound standard is not possible. Indeed, by the very design of the God we have been discussing it is not possible.
I sincerely intend no condescending insult to you by any of this though it may unavoidably sound that way. Politics are one thing, but when it comes to the things of God I am in no position to look askance at anyone. I will say that men having every bit of the antagonism you do, and more, have been subdued and converted by the same loving merciful grace I have. Though once blind they too now see the same divine order in everything. I’ve known a couple.[/quote]
…i appreciate the sentiment because i think you’re sincere, but as far as religion or theology goes eastern philosophy appealed to me far more than western monotheism. Religions of Abraham require a suspension of disbelief [don’t take this literally, it’s a discription] i just can’t muster. But i’ve always found the subject fascinating though (:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Truth is simple and succinct [imo] not convoluted and obtuse…
[/quote]
Is that an absolute? Or is it relative?[/quote]
…it’s my opinion and therefore subjective…
[/quote]
You may be surprised to hear this, but this is why I have always had a measure of respect for you. Most people will not say this as. Also in our very brief encounter a while back I alluded to above you were very cordial to me.[/quote]
…with topics like these it’s easy to get too excited, and i have discussed this topic for a while now on various boards. Altough religion does little for me, in discussing religion, faith and the underlying issues i learned a great deal about myself and people in general…
…whatever the intensity of the religious discussion, you’re almost guaranteed to speak to people on a deeper level than discussing politics or when you’re just chitchatting. This is what i enjoy most i guess; a level of honesty [on multiple levels] in a discours with someone else…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
I would disagree. I realize how truly insignificant I am and how great the power of grace is by being a Christian. “What is man that thou art mindful of him?”
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
I would disagree. I realize how truly insignificant I am and how great the power of grace is by being a Christian. “What is man that thou art mindful of him?”[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
…isn’t that what i said?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
No, I am still insignificant, that is why humility is a big issue in Catholicism, it is a key issue in Christianity.
You have it backwards, most people are Prideful people before they follow Catholicism, and then learn humility through Catholicism.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that is, what religion is concerned anyway, foreign to me; that you’d accept something as truth without it being from/of yourself. Similar with political ideologies, i can’t wrap my head around it…
[quote]As you will no doubt be not surprised to hear I simply disagree. It is a system and it is comprehensive. It lives in my spirit and mind and displays itself with every beat of my heart(and yours). I see it everywhere and in everything without exception and that just as plainly as the keyboard I’m typing this on. Of course this is all pathetic anti intellectual sophistry to you because as I told you maybe a year and a half or so ago, proof, by your earthbound standard is not possible. Indeed, by the very design of the God we have been discussing it is not possible.
I sincerely intend no condescending insult to you by any of this though it may unavoidably sound that way. Politics are one thing, but when it comes to the things of God I am in no position to look askance at anyone. I will say that men having every bit of the antagonism you do, and more, have been subdued and converted by the same loving merciful grace I have. Though once blind they too now see the same divine order in everything. I’ve known a couple.[/quote]
…i appreciate the sentiment because i think you’re sincere, but as far as religion or theology goes eastern philosophy appealed to me far more than western monotheism. Religions of Abraham require a suspension of disbelief [don’t take this literally, it’s a discription] i just can’t muster. But i’ve always found the subject fascinating though (:[/quote]
I believe it because I believe the Church has authority.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
I would disagree. I realize how truly insignificant I am and how great the power of grace is by being a Christian. “What is man that thou art mindful of him?”[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
…isn’t that what i said?
[/quote]
No, you said a person is insignificant until said person joins a religion at which pt they become special. I said I feel insignificant because of my religion (Brother Chris beat me to it).
And I’ll second what Tribulus said, you’ve been pretty respectful through this whole thread and I thank you for that.
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
I would disagree. I realize how truly insignificant I am and how great the power of grace is by being a Christian. “What is man that thou art mindful of him?”[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
…isn’t that what i said?
[/quote]
No, you said a person is insignificant until said person joins a religion at which pt they become special. I said I feel insignificant because of my religion (Brother Chris beat me to it).
And I’ll second what Tribulus said, you’ve been pretty respectful through this whole thread and I thank you for that.[/quote]
I’d like to restate my previous statement in case I wasn’t clear. My religion doesn’t make me insignificant, but from the teachings of the Church has shown me my insignificant.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]ron22 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Red Herring, how does my insignificance have anything to do with following what God asks of me and there being only one true God? (Actually there is several ways to get to Heaven, not just following the Catholic Religion, but I do not want to confuse that misconception with this misconception). [/quote]
…you are only insignificant until you follow a religion. After that you’ve become special by grace of that religion…[/quote]
I would disagree. I realize how truly insignificant I am and how great the power of grace is by being a Christian. “What is man that thou art mindful of him?”[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
…isn’t that what i said?
[/quote]
No, you said a person is insignificant until said person joins a religion at which pt they become special. I said I feel insignificant because of my religion (Brother Chris beat me to it).
And I’ll second what Tribulus said, you’ve been pretty respectful through this whole thread and I thank you for that.[/quote]
I’d like to restate my previous statement in case I wasn’t clear. My religion doesn’t make me insignificant, but from the teachings of the Church has shown me my insignificant. [/quote]
That’s what I meant too…I just said it wrong.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< …that is, what religion is concerned anyway, foreign to me; that you’d accept something as truth without it being from/of yourself. Similar with political ideologies, i can’t wrap my head around it… >>>[/quote]You are an unusually forthright fella I gotta say. You have also just squarely nailed THEE point right on the head. Left to myself my friend it’s foreign to me too and I can’t wrap my head around it either. From a creaturely perspective in many areas I still can’t. I don’t even try anymore. Somewhere along my walk with the Lord He made it clear to me that it is fruitless folly at best and sinful self exaltation at worst for me to attempt to explain that which He has not.
This does not in any way mean that I reject the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Quite the contrary. When ones sees all of existence as the unavoidable revelation of the wisdom and power of God, knowledge is all the sweeter. People think Christians hide from science in fear they may find something to damage their faith. Not me. I jump in with both feet, whoooopeeee!!! Splash it all over myself. It enhances the focus on just how little I deserve the loving kindness of an uncreated Being, and one that I have fatally offended, who can produce such wonders by fiat command.
Not that I can explain everything. I don’t need to. He is explanation enough. I must confess though that I find unmistakable evidence for the truth of fallen mankind in observing the world of science. It took the world’s most powerful supercomputers a number of years to decode the human genome running calculations 24/7. Scientists are then heralded as representing the pinnacle of reason, logic and erudition for declaring this to have happened by accident. The genome itself and by extension the equipment required to open it’s secrets, but I am an anachronistic moron for believing that somebody ultimately designed both.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< …i appreciate the sentiment because i think you’re sincere, but as far as religion or theology goes eastern philosophy appealed to me far more than western monotheism. Religions of Abraham require a suspension of disbelief [don’t take this literally, it’s a discription] i just can’t muster. But i’ve always found the subject fascinating though (:[/quote]Don’t worry about offending me bub. You owe me nothing. I have no reasonable expectation of freedom from offense by unbelievers in this world. Especially on a non Christian website. People who do hold such expectations have not yet understood sin and especially their own.
[quote]Brother Chris: No, I am still insignificant, that is why humility is a big issue in Catholicism, it is a key issue in Christianity.
You have it backwards, most people are Prideful people before they follow Catholicism, and then learn humility through Catholicism.[/quote]
…but you both do see how the actions of self-professed [born again] christians contradict the notion of ‘insignificance’? The rejection of LGBT people, gay marriage, [young earth] creationists; the notion that you’re blessed because you believe in [a] god is to me a matter of reverse psychology…
…i’m not saying this is the case for you two, but on a whole, seeing how the religious collective [any abrahamic collective] is acting and how they position themselves against those who believe not, or believe differently, gives me a distinctly different picture…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< …that is, what religion is concerned anyway, foreign to me; that you’d accept something as truth without it being from/of yourself. Similar with political ideologies, i can’t wrap my head around it… >>>[/quote]You are an unusually forthright fella I gotta say. You have also just squarely nailed THEE point right on the head. Left to myself my friend it’s foreign to me too and I can’t wrap my head around it either. From a creaturely perspective in many areas I still can’t. I don’t even try anymore. Somewhere along my walk with the Lord He made it clear to me that it is fruitless folly at best and sinful self exaltation at worst for me to attempt to explain that which He has not.
This does not in any way mean that I reject the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Quite the contrary. When ones sees all of existence as the unavoidable revelation of the wisdom and power of God, knowledge is all the sweeter. People think Christians hide from science in fear they may find something to damage their faith. Not me. I jump in with both feet, whoooopeeee!!! Splash it all over myself. It enhances the focus on just how little I deserve the loving kindness of an uncreated Being, and one that I have fatally offended, who can produce such wonders by fiat command.
Not that I can explain everything. I don’t need to. He is explanation enough. I must confess though that I find unmistakable evidence for the truth of fallen mankind in observing the world of science. It took the world’s most powerful supercomputers a number of years to decode the human genome running calculations 24/7. Scientists are then heralded as representing the pinnacle of reason, logic and erudition for declaring this to have happened by accident. The genome itself and by extension the equipment required to open it’s secrets, but I am an anachronistic moron for believing that somebody ultimately designed both.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< …i appreciate the sentiment because i think you’re sincere, but as far as religion or theology goes eastern philosophy appealed to me far more than western monotheism. Religions of Abraham require a suspension of disbelief [don’t take this literally, it’s a discription] i just can’t muster. But i’ve always found the subject fascinating though (:[/quote]Don’t worry about offending me bub. You owe me nothing. I have no reasonable expectation of freedom from offense by unbelievers in this world. Especially on a non Christian website. People who do hold such expectations have not yet understood sin and especially their own.[/quote]
…thanks for your explanations Trib, i appreciate it…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …thanks for your explanations Trib, i appreciate it…
[/quote]You are quite welcome though I’ve been having a personal struggle about this the last few weeks. Either I should have stuck to my guns and avoided specific “religious” debate in these forums or I should have been doing it all along. There’s a lesson in there either way.
Now you brought something up to BrotherChris that I find myself drawn to address as well. There is nothing more repugnant than watching a buncha self righteous, holier than thou “Christians” mercilessly pounding some person or group not even claiming Christ who are engaged in whatever sin they have decided is EXTRA bad. You can be sure it won’t be one that they struggle with themselves.
“GOD HATES FAGS!!! You filthy slimy stench in the nostrils of God. I hope he strikes you all dead where you stand.” That kind of behavior brings unspeakable reproach and dishonor to the name of Christ. Yes, homosexuality is sin. Yes, it is damnable sin. Yes, God is angry with the wicked every day. However, sex outside of the covenant of marriage is sin. Porn is sin, lust in the heart is sin, drunkenness and gluttony are sin. Unrighteous anger is sin. Greed is sin. Hypocrisy is sin. In short anything not portraying the love and holiness of God is sin.
In the 6th chapter of Proverbs there is the list of 7 things God hates. At the top of the list are “haughty eyes”. Arrogance. Jesus reserved His harshest words on record for the pharisees who looked down their noses at others they deemed not as good as themselves. Matthew 23
In the gospel of Luke chapter 18 He tells this parable:
“And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
We are commanded to call sin sin, but people who spend their time unlovingly blasting ANY unbeliever for their sin have no concept of their own and are in that act showing themselves guilty of sin that betrays a heart devoid of the grace of Christ.
People aren’t damned because they’re gay. Or adulterous, or dishonest or murderers, or gluttonous or drunks or even arrogant. They’re damned because they don’t know Jesus. The behaviors are symptoms.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris: No, I am still insignificant, that is why humility is a big issue in Catholicism, it is a key issue in Christianity.
You have it backwards, most people are Prideful people before they follow Catholicism, and then learn humility through Catholicism.[/quote]
…but you both do see how the actions of self-professed [born again] christians contradict the notion of ‘insignificance’? The rejection of LGBT people, gay marriage, [young earth] creationists; the notion that you’re blessed because you believe in [a] god is to me a matter of reverse psychology…
[/quote]
Well, I am not born again, and I am not self-professed. The Catholic Church says I am a Christian. I do not reject people on their orientation, however, I believe there is a certain way to behave, but that does not mean I get to act as if I am better than those that are not in full communion with the Church, because they might very well be right with God and are struggling. This is the point in which I mind my own business.
Here is a story of my meaning:
A week before Lent there was a big confession and this was around the time a bunch of Churches in the New England signed a packed saying they were against the Health Bill. We had protesters outside during the whole confession. When the Priest and I came out, there were several people yelling at the Priest at the steps of the Church, and he was asked by a gentleman, “Does God hate fags? I am a fag.” The Priest paused, and then stated, “No, God loves you, son.”
The rest is history (he actually repented and was baptized and is now in full communion with the Church) as the Protest quickly broke up after they realized that even though we stand up against sin being forced on us, we do not hate or spread hate on those that do not do as we see right.
[quote]
…i’m not saying this is the case for you two, but on a whole, seeing how the religious collective [any abrahamic collective] is acting and how they position themselves against those who believe not, or believe differently, gives me a distinctly different picture…[/quote]
Yes, sometimes those with power are corrupted with Pride, and that is a sad fact that it happens, but that is not the Truth of the Christianity.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< Well, I am not born again, and I am not self-professed. The Catholic Church says I am a Christian. >>>[/quote]This is the last I’m gonna mention this here for a while. I promise, so don’t think I’m ignoring you. Either here or in the death penalty thread. I’m gonna need some time to get prayed up because you and I are gonna butt heads =] I mean no hostility by that, I really don’t, but I can see it comin.
EDIT: Actually I don’t even know if it would get off the ground because we have 2 very different views of Christian authority.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
I would have to say that one of the biggest misconceptions the general public has of Christianity is faith. I see that the general public has the misconception that the Christian faith is a blind faith and this really stood out to me when I watched Religulous from some recent thread and that biblical faith isn’t blind.[/quote]
How is faith not blind? Where is your evidence?
…
Does the Pope hide it under his hat!?!?!?[/quote]
There are many logical reasons to believe, contingency argument, kalam cosmological argument *here’s a good video for it - YouTube , Leibnizian cosmological argument. But all the evidence for his existence will only tell one that its reasonable that God exist and a few characteristic about said God and not who he is. God reveals himself to those who are sincere in pursuit of truth and him. There are plenty of “christians” who know about him but there are few who know him. I only got to learn about the evidence and logical arguments for his existence after he has revealed himself to me. Hopefully some of the stuff I presented here will put a few people on the path to search after and know God.