Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
441

@Capped: I’m guessing you may not be a parent, because having children teaches me, personally, a lot about God’s unconditional love, while still allowing me to make mistakes and endure the consequences. I know my children will choose wrong sometimes, but I still recognize their right to make choices.

I also HOPE they love me because of who I am, not because of what I do for them. I desire a relationship with them based on my personality and “self”, not because of any biological or psychological ties. I don’t want them to HAVE to love me, I want them to chose to love me, it means more… I could go on and on, but that is how children have helped me understand my relationship with God.

Most of ya’ll are too deep for me, but getting back to the title of this thread…
I was in a restaurant the other night when an obviously drunk fellow mentioned to his friends that he doesn’t go to church because they are full of hypocrites. It sounded like something I’ve heard and told myself, even lately, but a little lightbulb went off and I thought, “MAN, he’s right!”

How easy it is to buy that and use the basic truth that “all have sinned” as an excuse to not even try. (How’s that theory work with training?) Like going into a building and singing some songs could really make someone righteous anyhow. So the BIG misconception (this week) to both church goers and non is that “Going to church makes you perfect.”

Some probably ARE hypocrites, but most are just people trying to do what they think is right. Some are even looking for God there.

442

These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

443

[quote]debzam wrote:
How easy it is to buy that and use the basic truth that “all have sinned” as an excuse to not even try. (How’s that theory work with training?) Like going into a building and singing some songs could really make someone righteous anyhow. So the BIG misconception (this week) to both church goers and non is that “Going to church makes you perfect.”

Some probably ARE hypocrites, but most are just people trying to do what they think is right. Some are even looking for God there.[/quote]

I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason.

While I think a lot of good people go to church, I find it’s not for me anymore. I like to find a nice quiet place and reflect on my actions (and determine what/if I would have changed to prepare me for the future).

444

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.

445

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.[/quote]

Do you have proof Zeus doesn’t throw lightening bolts? If you can answer this definitively, I’ll agree with you.

446

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason. >>>[/quote]
This is a crime against heaven.(although all sin is) People who claim the gospel of Christ and reproach His name with flagrant unrepentant sin will have much much to answer for. Everybody struggles. Everybody. The apostle Paul gives us a military style sit-rep of his own struggles in Romans. Augustine’s confessions are nothing but a brother sharing his struggles with sin. I myself (though certainly no Paul or Augustine) am at war with my old Adam every day.

However, people who love and embrace sin yet take His name on their lips and put a stumbling block before those who know them will be quite justly dealt with in the judgment.

Oh yeah. I agree. Going to church means less than nothing by itself.

447

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I think you forget about the freewill thing, >>>
[/quote]
Like I say, you and I are gonna butt heads eventually. I keep puttin it off because there’s other stuff goin on. I’m just puttin down a stake on this one for now. By the definition intended by most people, including many many Christians I reject that man has a free will. Take another look at Augustine’s City of God. He got pretty close there, but Aquinas steered himself into his Aristotelean rationalistic ditch on that one.

448

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason. >>>[/quote]
This is a crime against heaven.(although all sin is) People who claim the gospel of Christ and reproach His name with flagrant unrepentant sin will have much much to answer for. Everybody struggles. Everybody. The apostle Paul gives us a military style sit-rep of his own struggles in Romans. Augustine’s confessions are nothing but a brother sharing his struggles with sin. I myself (though certainly no Paul or Augustine) am at war with my old Adam every day.

However, people who love and embrace sin yet take His name on their lips and put a stumbling block before those who know them will be quite justly dealt with in the judgment.

Oh yeah. I agree. Going to church means less than nothing by itself.[/quote]

I back Tirib on this one.

I personally stopped going to church for this very reason. I did not hate the church but the people that were in the church. This is both Lay people and the staff. I was one of those people though. I would continue to sin, and show up to church to make myself feel good. I decided the only way to get away was stop going. I ran from God.

I really struggled going back to church, until I realized that we are all human. I have had a pastor cheat on his wife. I have had a pastor steal from the church. People put the clergy on a pedistool. They are human just like us that struggle with the same sin. God will definitely judge them more harshly for their sin, but that is between them and God, and they are still human. I no longer look at the clergy, staff, or pastor as being better than me, they just have more knowledge of the Bible. They are my Earthly shepperd, but they do not own the flock. The flock belongs to God. God is our true shepperd and he will protect us with his life. Sin will kill us, but Jesus being our true shepperd took that sin on himself so that we might be safe or saved from sin. Look to Jesus and you will see what true Christians are striving to be. I had to stop comparing myself to other humans. I had to compare myself to God. When you compare yourself to God you will know you are sinful.

I still struggle with the people in church, especially the “Tithers of the Month.” These are the people that beleive since they give so much to the church they have the right to get preferrential treatment. They demand the church to serve them.

449

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I think you forget about the freewill thing, >>>
[/quote]
Like I say, you and I are gonna butt heads eventually. I keep puttin it off because there’s other stuff goin on. I’m just puttin down a stake on this one for now. By the definition intended by most people, including many many Christians I reject that man has a free will. Take another look at Augustine’s City of God. He got pretty close there, but Aquinas steered himself into his Aristotelean rationalistic ditch on that one.[/quote]
I feared this day as this may be a point of contention between us however I am not sure if this topic is better suited for another thread or if it fits within the scope of this thread as well.

450

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason. >>>[/quote]
This is a crime against heaven.(although all sin is) People who claim the gospel of Christ and reproach His name with flagrant unrepentant sin will have much much to answer for. Everybody struggles. Everybody. The apostle Paul gives us a military style sit-rep of his own struggles in Romans. Augustine’s confessions are nothing but a brother sharing his struggles with sin. I myself (though certainly no Paul or Augustine) am at war with my old Adam every day.

However, people who love and embrace sin yet take His name on their lips and put a stumbling block before those who know them will be quite justly dealt with in the judgment.

Oh yeah. I agree. Going to church means less than nothing by itself.[/quote]

I back Tirib on this one.

I personally stopped going to church for this very reason. I did not hate the church but the people that were in the church. This is both Lay people and the staff. I was one of those people though. I would continue to sin, and show up to church to make myself feel good. I decided the only way to get away was stop going. I ran from God.

I really struggled going back to church, until I realized that we are all human. I have had a pastor cheat on his wife. I have had a pastor steal from the church. People put the clergy on a pedistool. They are human just like us that struggle with the same sin. God will definitely judge them more harshly for their sin, but that is between them and God, and they are still human. I no longer look at the clergy, staff, or pastor as being better than me, they just have more knowledge of the Bible. They are my Earthly shepperd, but they do not own the flock. The flock belongs to God. God is our true shepperd and he will protect us with his life. Sin will kill us, but Jesus being our true shepperd took that sin on himself so that we might be safe or saved from sin. Look to Jesus and you will see what true Christians are striving to be. I had to stop comparing myself to other humans. I had to compare myself to God. When you compare yourself to God you will know you are sinful.

I still struggle with the people in church, especially the “Tithers of the Month.” These are the people that beleive since they give so much to the church they have the right to get preferrential treatment. They demand the church to serve them. [/quote]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that, dmaddox & Tirib.

451

I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?

452

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I couldn’t agree more. This is the reason I stopped going to church with people in college. I would see people from fraternities and sororities who were doing terrible things the night before and then head to church to wash their hands of their bad deeds. They would do this every week. Eventually, I stopped going to church solely for this reason. >>>[/quote]
This is a crime against heaven.(although all sin is) People who claim the gospel of Christ and reproach His name with flagrant unrepentant sin will have much much to answer for. Everybody struggles. Everybody. The apostle Paul gives us a military style sit-rep of his own struggles in Romans. Augustine’s confessions are nothing but a brother sharing his struggles with sin. I myself (though certainly no Paul or Augustine) am at war with my old Adam every day.

However, people who love and embrace sin yet take His name on their lips and put a stumbling block before those who know them will be quite justly dealt with in the judgment.

Oh yeah. I agree. Going to church means less than nothing by itself.[/quote]

I back Tirib on this one.

I personally stopped going to church for this very reason. I did not hate the church but the people that were in the church. This is both Lay people and the staff. I was one of those people though. I would continue to sin, and show up to church to make myself feel good. I decided the only way to get away was stop going. I ran from God.

I really struggled going back to church, until I realized that we are all human. I have had a pastor cheat on his wife. I have had a pastor steal from the church. People put the clergy on a pedistool. They are human just like us that struggle with the same sin. God will definitely judge them more harshly for their sin, but that is between them and God, and they are still human. I no longer look at the clergy, staff, or pastor as being better than me, they just have more knowledge of the Bible. They are my Earthly shepperd, but they do not own the flock. The flock belongs to God. God is our true shepperd and he will protect us with his life. Sin will kill us, but Jesus being our true shepperd took that sin on himself so that we might be safe or saved from sin. Look to Jesus and you will see what true Christians are striving to be. I had to stop comparing myself to other humans. I had to compare myself to God. When you compare yourself to God you will know you are sinful.

I still struggle with the people in church, especially the “Tithers of the Month.” These are the people that beleive since they give so much to the church they have the right to get preferrential treatment. They demand the church to serve them. [/quote]

While I have had bad experiences with pastors and other church members.
My thoughts on it are alittle different. I personally could care less what others do at church. I have been involved at two churches and just attending several others with out ever getting involved or talking to anyone. In many ways I enjoyed the never talking to anyone, but I have always felt I was missing something when I did that. As time as gone on I realize I consider alot of people at the churches I get involved in to be a family of sorts. There is a connection that I enjoy. In light of that I don’t give anyone more credit that I would my sister. I don’t ask her to be some shining example of Christian perfection. Why would I expect someone else that I see a few times a week to be better?

So I go for two reasons, to connect with others who share similiar values even if they don’t live up to them, and to serve.

453

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

What do you consider a sin? What do those religions consider sin?

edit and why are you asking about Islam and Judaism in a misconceptions about Christianty thread? j/p :slight_smile:

454

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.[/quote]

Do you have proof Zeus doesn’t throw lightening bolts? If you can answer this definitively, I’ll agree with you.
[/quote]

On pretty good authority lightning is as a result of a build up of static electricity and a subsequently a discharge of electricity.

So, it’s a pretty good probability that if there is a Zeus, he ain’t chucking lightning bolts…

455

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
<<< I had to stop comparing myself to other humans. I had to compare myself to God. When you compare yourself to God you will know you are sinful. >>>[/quote]
Oh yes indeed. Compared to the rest of humanity we can always come away with a glowing estimation of our own virtue, but when my heart is laid bare before the Lord I am acutely reminded of my desperate need for the righteousness of Christ.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
<<< I feared this day as this may be a point of contention between us however I am not sure if this topic is better suited for another thread or if it fits within the scope of this thread as well.[/quote]
Nonsense brother!!! Contention between Calvinists and Arminians? May it never be =] We will not become enemies in any such exchange as far it depends upon me.

I have a couple things in that regard that I’m throwing out there for consideration. There have been a lot of “Christian” threads in this forum lately which obviously I think is fine. However, at some point we will lay ourselves open to the charge of monopolizing the PWI forum if we start too many threads.

I am in no way suggesting shame for the faith, but this is not a Christian site and we will in my opinion give unbelievers legitimate reason for resentment if we are perceived as occupying this space by force. What number turns boldness into obnoxiousness I don’t know. I also have no problem with this debate, I can’t count how many times I’ve had it in the past, but it will be the biggest one here yet wherever it happens. By biggest I mean furthest reaching theologically. EVERYTHING is subsumed under the umbrella of these critical doctrines. I will have exactly one ally that I’m aware of.

Guys like BackinAction and Anonym and maybe even Ephrem will find this group of topics exceptionally fascinating.

456

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I have a few questions on sin. Is there any way I cannot commit sin in the eyes of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? Is my very existence a sin? If so, why would killing myself also be a sin?[/quote]

What do you consider a sin? What do those religions consider sin?

edit and why are you asking about Islam and Judaism in a misconceptions about Christianty thread? j/p :-)[/quote]

I would consider sin any violation of a religious law. I suppose those religions consider anything that goes against their laws a sin. The reason I chose those 3 is they are all based on the same texts.

457

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.[/quote]

Do you have proof Zeus doesn’t throw lightening bolts? If you can answer this definitively, I’ll agree with you.
[/quote]

On pretty good authority lightning is as a result of a build up of static electricity and a subsequently a discharge of electricity.

So, it’s a pretty good probability that if there is a Zeus, he ain’t chucking lightning bolts…
[/quote]

While I totally agree and highly doubt there every was/is a Zeus, there is always the possibility he is involved unless we know everything from all time. Perhaps a Zeus existed and died out leaving only the lightening we see today. My point is that no matter how likely and logical something is, unless you are aware of every factor for it’s entire existence, you don’t know completely.

458

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< I would consider sin any violation of a religious law. I suppose those religions consider anything that goes against their laws a sin. The reason I chose those 3 is they are all based on the same texts.
[/quote]Your answers will be coming my friend from several mainstream Christian schools of thought. Also, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are not even vaguely similar in anything that really counts.

Sin in Christianity, in a nutshell, means to fall short of the standard of God’s perfection as imperfectly illustrated in the letter of the old testament law and perfectly illustrated in the law of the Spirit which is the person and character of Jesus Christ who is the living Word of God in the new.

459

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
These threads are always interesting. They always turn into debates between theists and non-theists (and they get pretty vicious). Here’s the thing, neither side is definitively correct. Theists have no physical evidence of the existence of God and non-theists have no physical evidence for the non-existence of God. Neither side was around during the time of creation/start of everything. So when someone says “you’re wrong”, they aren’t being completely honest with themselves because they are just guessing (along with the rest of us). The best way to go about these discussions is to present your side of the argument with some evidence or logical reasoning and keep an open mind.

[/quote]

No one can definitively rule on the side of theism or atheism, but if you tell me we were created by a pink panda god who spoke to you and told you the world was flat and only 3,000 years old, I’m calling bullshit.

Abstract, universalist, concepts of the divine are impossible to refute or confirm, but specific religious dogma that attempts to describe, in detail, the specifics of the workings of the universe are not. We know Zeus doesn’t throw lighting bolts, it’s not a matter of having faith/belief or lack there of, if you take such a claim seriously.[/quote]

Do you have proof Zeus doesn’t throw lightening bolts? If you can answer this definitively, I’ll agree with you.
[/quote]

On pretty good authority lightning is as a result of a build up of static electricity and a subsequently a discharge of electricity.

So, it’s a pretty good probability that if there is a Zeus, he ain’t chucking lightning bolts…
[/quote]

No but you are missing the point. Zeus sets things up to seem like he doesn’t exist as a test of our faith. You are too closed minded with your dogma. If you had a personal relationship with Zeus like I do then you would see how obvious it is. Also, the universe can’t have come from nothing so obviously it was caused during the war between the Gods and the Titans.

460

Cockney Blue’s understandably inaccurate attempt was:

Tiribulus’s revised actually Christian version is:

I hate to keep saying this, but I fully understand how mind numbingly stooopid this sounds to you. I remember when it did to me to too.