Misconceptions of Christianity

[haney1]

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
<<< It seems as though he spared no expense in the days when people were, comparatively, easier to convince (they already looked to the supernatural for many answers, didn’t they?) but is holding back in modern times where a parted sea, water-to-blood transformation, resurrection or worldwide death of a *firstborn would carry significantly more weight in showcasing his existence. >>>[/quote]
And Christians do themselves and more importantly the gospel a disservice by failing to recognize the nearly fatal inductive weight behind this line of reasoning on the part of skeptics. Any answer that shoots very far beyond “I don’t know” is where we get into trouble by handing people like you, by which I honestly mean no particular disrespect, a shiny new set of weapons of our own invention.

I’m not saying no further explanation should be given whatsoever, but in the end, the truth is we don’t know for sure. What’s important to me is that I have no doubt there are perfectly holy and just reasons why there’s a scrap of paper stuck to a plant I can see in my front yard out the window right now to say nothing of God’s ongoing purposes for miracles. [/quote]

Let me carry this a bit farther. I do agree with Tirib that there is a lot that we do not know. But the reality of your question is simply (despite all objections to the contrary) “why doesn’t God do miracles that we can prove are miracles.” He was very clear in scripture that he will not respond to a request by a skeptic for a miracle, because no matter the miracle the skeptic will not believe - AND THAT IS THE HEART OF IT. [/quote]

Firstly, there are no “objections to the contrary” - the very specific question I am asking IS why God never does anything that is inarguably miraculous. I really don’t think I have beaten around the bush AT ALL as far as that is concerned.

Secondly, idea that a skeptic will not respond to ANY sort of demonstration is, as I wrote earlier, false. As Tirib said, I would consider that to be a “cop out”… because there are numerous examples to be found of former atheists/agnostics who converted after witnessing something they found to be a true miracle.

I already wrote my thoughts on that in a past post or two. Instead of trotting out the same old lame horse, please respond with something more substantial than “because there is no convincing all of you skeptics”.

But, I guess all we can take from God not performing miracles for the benefit of skeptics is that these sorts of people were inspired to convert under false pretenses?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
The Miracles that were performed in the New Testament by Jesus were performed for a specific reason -to identify Jesus as God. If you like I can provide a whole litany of verses that support this conclusion.[/quote]

And yet, every single one of those miracles Jesus showcased to demonstrate his godliness were transitory. While it was right and good to put his powers on exhibit for his contemporaries to prove himself, the idea of creating or performing something of eternal significance or of enduring existence was off limits. You can argue that your religion is of “eternal significance” and that your afterlife will be of “enduring existence” but we are speaking in the context of converting skeptics. And that is exactly what Jesus was trying to do - otherwise he wouldn’t have had to bother with the miracles.

Why were we - 2,000 years later - given so much less slack than those who actually had the opportunity to see, firsthand, these miracles as they were worked?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
God does not perform miracles to merely alleviate suffering - taken to its logical conclusion, if God was doing miracles to alleviate suffering there would be no logical end to the circumstances in which a miracle would be applicable. Everyone would be perfect, there would be no death, no sickness, no pain, no suffering- but that was what He gave us and we have chosen to reject. We have chosen sin and sin has consequences.

Why is there pain and suffering in this world? The result of sin. What will end all of the pain and suffering? The removal of sin from this creation.[/quote]

But yet, the point was never that God must work to alleviate suffering - the point is that, while God is continually credited with curing various ailments and diseases, he never sees it fit to work on those who suffer from conditions or circumstances in which his holy touch is the ONLY possible way for those people to find treatment.

And this just goes back to the idea that - relieving suffering aside - God only decides to work in ambiguous ways.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You can whine all you like about the absence of miracles to prove whatever conclusion you’d like to draw from it - but the plain biblical reality is that God will not perform a “sign” for, because He has already given you all of the evidence necessary to believe - you just have to choose to believe or not to believe.[/quote]

And here we go again - because I ask questions and don’t simply nod my head at whatever scraps of rationale are tossed my way I must be a whiner.

But besides that, it still comes back to the idea that God chooses to give some people more “evidence necessary to believe” than others… unless, of course, he has never provided any sort of miracle for any agnostic/atheist/skeptic/whathaveyou - in which case I would hate to be the one breaking the news to those converts that they misread their signs.[/quote]

In fairness anonym, you are ascking to answer something that in many ways is beyond our ability. To answer why God stopped, or rarely, or only under specific circumstances can’t be answer by anyone. The reasons behind His choices are beyond our understanding.

I recently read CS Lewis book a grief observed. The book is basically him dealing with the death of his wife. In it He briefly addressed something that I found very profound. I will butcher it with a horrible paraphrase.

It isn’t that God is cruel and is playing a cosmic joke that is scary. A diety like that might grow tired or show some mercy. No it is that God is perfectly good like a surgeon removing cancer. No matter how much we ask him to stop He won’t until we are cured.

Now there are flaws in the logic because one I butchered what he actually said, and it is only a paragraph not a full all out argument on that subject of pain.

I also no it isn’t specifically related to your question of miracles, but I believe it applies since you are asking that never ending question of “Why”?

The honest answer is because He decides not us.

[ephrem]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …belief is not knowledge. <<<>>> It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]
Where the one true God is concerned oh yes it is and oh no it isn’t.

You may remember a long while back I told you that your construct of reality (every unbelievers actually) was engineered and erected financed entirely by capital borrowed from my bank. If not for the truth of what I believe you wouldn’t even exist to declare your unbelief in the first place. The revelation of God almighty IS the foxhole you hide in and the weapon you blindly fire at what you ill perceive is His direction when the truth is every direction is His direction.

Being a child of Adam you still the bear the image of God, distorted though it is through sin. That remaining distorted image IS the revelation of God within you and answers to the revelation of Him in the universe at large leaving you incessantly confronted by the fact that He is and you are accountable to Him. Every calorie you burn is in support of an ongoing campaign to convince yourself that ANYTHING but that is actually the case. You are the one in the unnatural state of spiritual death groping desperately about in a world of darkness that you yourself have declared is subjective.

How can I say these things? Because for my first 20 years on this earth I lived your life of death and now having seen myself and the world through God’s own eyes, yes that’s what I said, it’s all become so clear. Circular arguments n all. (that’s what they’ll look like anyway)[/quote]

…Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…

…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer

[ephrem]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…belief is not knowledge. You believe christianity is true on the basis of faith. It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]

True, but what do you actually know? [/quote]

…i know i know not (:

[ephrem]

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Yep - God . . . God makes man . . . . man sins (disobeys) . . . man dies (separation from God) and will be separated from God for all of eternity once he physically dies . . . God sends himself as a sacrifice to pay for man’s sins . . . Jesus (God) is resurrected from death to prove that God can save all mankind and has accepted Jesus’s sacrifice for our sins . . . man chooses to place faith in Jesus for the atonement of his sins . . . man dies, is resurrected and spends eternity in fellowship with God . . . so that all future generations could understand this simple message it is recorded in the inspired word of God as begun by moses and continued through the apostles . . . .

I tried to keep in a few sentences . . . [/quote]

…or you could just say: “I don’t know”
[/quote]

But I do know what Christianity is . . . I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here . . .[/quote]

…belief is not knowledge. You believe christianity is true on the basis of faith. It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]

Sorry - i haven’t been able to post much lately - in training new role at work for the next 6-7 weeks

Your comment is unrelated to the question I was answering. The question I was answering was specifically related to what the foundational Christian doctrines are. I know what these are. That’s a fact

You’re simply raising the age-old criticism that know one knows nothing for certain in matters of faith (another misconception) . . . hope that makes your day, but it has nothing to do with the conversation.

Did you want to actually build an argument or are you satisfied with just the statement?[/quote]

…you’ve satisfied me, thanks (:

[haney1]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …belief is not knowledge. <<<>>> It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]
Where the one true God is concerned oh yes it is and oh no it isn’t.

You may remember a long while back I told you that your construct of reality (every unbelievers actually) was engineered and erected financed entirely by capital borrowed from my bank. If not for the truth of what I believe you wouldn’t even exist to declare your unbelief in the first place. The revelation of God almighty IS the foxhole you hide in and the weapon you blindly fire at what you ill perceive is His direction when the truth is every direction is His direction.

Being a child of Adam you still the bear the image of God, distorted though it is through sin. That remaining distorted image IS the revelation of God within you and answers to the revelation of Him in the universe at large leaving you incessantly confronted by the fact that He is and you are accountable to Him. Every calorie you burn is in support of an ongoing campaign to convince yourself that ANYTHING but that is actually the case. You are the one in the unnatural state of spiritual death groping desperately about in a world of darkness that you yourself have declared is subjective.

How can I say these things? Because for my first 20 years on this earth I lived your life of death and now having seen myself and the world through God’s own eyes, yes that’s what I said, it’s all become so clear. Circular arguments n all. (that’s what they’ll look like anyway)[/quote]

…Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…

…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer
[/quote]

That is strange thing to ask, in light of the fact that your belief about religious people, your political views and just about every other belief you have includes in some shape or fashion everyone on earth. To try and isolate something is impossible for believers as well as skeptics across the globe.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…[/quote]I understand.

[quote]ephrem wrote:…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer
[/quote]I don’t do anything out of obligation (as such), but I understand why you would say this too and for the record that wasn’t what I was necessarily doing anyway. I will refrain from addressing you unless you address me first if you so desire, but your inclusion in the providence of God is eternally outta my hands. What I do in that regard is irrelevant.

[ephrem]

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …belief is not knowledge. <<<>>> It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]
Where the one true God is concerned oh yes it is and oh no it isn’t.

You may remember a long while back I told you that your construct of reality (every unbelievers actually) was engineered and erected financed entirely by capital borrowed from my bank. If not for the truth of what I believe you wouldn’t even exist to declare your unbelief in the first place. The revelation of God almighty IS the foxhole you hide in and the weapon you blindly fire at what you ill perceive is His direction when the truth is every direction is His direction.

Being a child of Adam you still the bear the image of God, distorted though it is through sin. That remaining distorted image IS the revelation of God within you and answers to the revelation of Him in the universe at large leaving you incessantly confronted by the fact that He is and you are accountable to Him. Every calorie you burn is in support of an ongoing campaign to convince yourself that ANYTHING but that is actually the case. You are the one in the unnatural state of spiritual death groping desperately about in a world of darkness that you yourself have declared is subjective.

How can I say these things? Because for my first 20 years on this earth I lived your life of death and now having seen myself and the world through God’s own eyes, yes that’s what I said, it’s all become so clear. Circular arguments n all. (that’s what they’ll look like anyway)[/quote]

…Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…

…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer
[/quote]

That is strange thing to ask, in light of the fact that your belief about religious people, your political views and just about every other belief you have includes in some shape or fashion everyone on earth. To try and isolate something is impossible for believers as well as skeptics across the globe.[/quote]

…it’s an odd question, but i meant if he was able to not include me in his beliefs, as a non-believer. Don’t know if that makes more sense, but there you go…

[ephrem]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…[/quote]I understand.

[quote]ephrem wrote:…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer
[/quote]I don’t do anything out of obligation (as such), but I understand why you would say this too and for the record that wasn’t what I was necessarily doing anyway. I will refrain from addressing you unless you address me first if you so desire, but your inclusion in the providence of God is eternally outta my hands. What I do in that regard is irrelevant.
[/quote]

…i understand if the question caused confusion, but i didn’t intend it the way it came across eventhough your answer was clarifying. Address me anytime you like, that was not my intention…

…so what you believe about the providence of god and my inclusion in that providence is out of your hands altough it still includes me in your beliefs. So you can’t exlude me from your beliefs even if you wanted to, right?

[haney1]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …belief is not knowledge. <<<>>> It’s an elaborate way of saying, “I don’t know”…
[/quote]
Where the one true God is concerned oh yes it is and oh no it isn’t.

You may remember a long while back I told you that your construct of reality (every unbelievers actually) was engineered and erected financed entirely by capital borrowed from my bank. If not for the truth of what I believe you wouldn’t even exist to declare your unbelief in the first place. The revelation of God almighty IS the foxhole you hide in and the weapon you blindly fire at what you ill perceive is His direction when the truth is every direction is His direction.

Being a child of Adam you still the bear the image of God, distorted though it is through sin. That remaining distorted image IS the revelation of God within you and answers to the revelation of Him in the universe at large leaving you incessantly confronted by the fact that He is and you are accountable to Him. Every calorie you burn is in support of an ongoing campaign to convince yourself that ANYTHING but that is actually the case. You are the one in the unnatural state of spiritual death groping desperately about in a world of darkness that you yourself have declared is subjective.

How can I say these things? Because for my first 20 years on this earth I lived your life of death and now having seen myself and the world through God’s own eyes, yes that’s what I said, it’s all become so clear. Circular arguments n all. (that’s what they’ll look like anyway)[/quote]

…Tiribulus, you wrote many reasonable and fairly levelheaded posts in this thread, but this one is nonsense. I reject your beliefs like i reject beliefs in Odin, Zeus, Krishna, Vishnu and even poor old Buddha. The biggest misconception that exists within christianity [and any religion for that matter] is that it’s founded on something real, existing or factual…

…you believe for your own personal reasons; whatever they may be. And that is perfectly fine, but somehow i am included in those beliefs. I, and all who don’t believe in the same god like you, are included in those beliefs. Even if you are obligated to proselytise, i’m honestly wondering: could you not include me in your beliefs?

[edit] to clarify, i don’t mean ‘not include me’ on this forum or in our discussions, but in general as a non-believer
[/quote]

That is strange thing to ask, in light of the fact that your belief about religious people, your political views and just about every other belief you have includes in some shape or fashion everyone on earth. To try and isolate something is impossible for believers as well as skeptics across the globe.[/quote]

…it’s an odd question, but i meant if he was able to not include me in his beliefs, as a non-believer. Don’t know if that makes more sense, but there you go…
[/quote]

I understand what you meant, but I think it is impossible in the true sense of what you are asking. By default all belief that everyone holds down to the most unimportant thing by its very nature is inclusive\exclusive. I know I am nit picking, but it is more my interest in the philisophy of your question. On that scale I hold that it is philosophically impossible to not think about people as either in or out of ones said belief about the world around them.

Now if you are asking him one a personal level to not personally think of you directly, my guess would be he only thinks of you when these topics come up and you have an exchange.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …so what you believe about the providence of god and my inclusion in that providence is out of your hands although it still includes me in your beliefs. So you can’t exclude me from your beliefs even if you wanted to, right?
[/quote]That is true. In my second post in this thread I said and stand by this:

[quote]<<< To (Christians) every single last speck of data possible from the movement of sub atomic particles to the majesty of the intelligent moral agency of the image of God in man having been created male and female. Everything, Screams the plainly self evident truth that He is and we are His children having been redeemed from death to life.

To (unbelievers) every single last speck of data screams one of a thousand derivative versions of anything but that. It is their nature inherited from the first Adam. A nature it must never be forgotten we still share in our old self. >>>[/quote] If you knew me in real life you would know I mean by this absolutely no contrived antagonism whatsoever, but this means you. Had I never believed, or even been born for that matter it would have zero impact yea or nay on the revelation of God which stands entirely on His authority.

[ephrem]

…well, another tidbit i learned today, thanks!

[Tiribulus]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…well, another tidbit i learned today, thanks![/quote]
LOL! I believe you sorta meant that, albeit with a bit of a snarky twist. =]

Believe me man. You can rest assured nothing I will ever say will be because I’m trying to offend you. These conversations in these threads are nothing new.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (uppercase means a quotation from the Old Testament)
[i]"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 For it is written,
    "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
     AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS BOAST IN THE LORD.”[/i]

[CappedAndPlanIt]

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“…The Miracles that were performed in the New Testament by Jesus were performed for a specific reason -to identify Jesus as God…”

May I put up a side bar at this time? Thanks. An uncle of mine, while attending school (ministerial studies) in California was walking downtown with two of his co-students. The school was having a seminar and they were on a lunch break. As they were returning to the campus, a group of individuals approached them and inquired of them if they were attending the Religious Seminar. When my uncle and his friends replied with an affirmative the other group of individuals stated that they were attending a large meeting at a Satanic Seminar. Suddenly the satanic group levitated about a foot off the ground. They then in unison asked, “can your God do this?” In reply, my uncle stated that “it is said in the Holy Scriptures that we are not to tempt our God, but in Jesus name, you can’t do that again.” Try as they may, they could not do so and hurriedly turned away and left. With the crowd that had gathered around them, believers and non-believers and fellow students, they too, hurriedly, returned to the school’s campus to testify of what they had heard and seen.

I was troubled in my spirit with concern in relating the above happenings because of the stated “… no matter the miracle the skeptic will not believe…” but eventually submitted to the urging of the Holy Spirit to do so.[/quote]

Bullshit. Human beings cannot levitate, gravity does not allow it.

Either you are lying, or someone lied to you.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
<<< Suddenly the satanic group levitated about a foot off the ground. >>>[/quote]Bullshit. Human beings cannot levitate, gravity does not allow it.
Either you are lying, or someone lied to you. [/quote]There we have it boys n girls. A disciple of the great gravity god (ggg?) has spoken. People will ascribe absolute, practically divine attributes to pert near any ol thing around except the God to whom they actually apply.

[CappedAndPlanIt]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
<<< Suddenly the satanic group levitated about a foot off the ground. >>>[/quote]Bullshit. Human beings cannot levitate, gravity does not allow it.
Either you are lying, or someone lied to you. [/quote]There we have it boys n girls. A disciple of the great gravity god (ggg?) has spoken. People will ascribe absolute, practically divine attributes to pert near any ol thing around except the God to whom they actually apply.[/quote]

Show me one case where gravity is suspended at the whim of a human being. You cannot.

You can, however, keep asserting a sky wizard exists with no actual proof and tautological reasoning. So, go ahead.

[CappedAndPlanIt]

I’m sorry, you were busy making so much sense.

Your all powerful, all loving god allows evil to exist, and will punish his most beloved creations for eternity if they dont think like you do.

He made the earth 6 thousand years ago, then made it so that every reliable form of dating consistantly shows objects to be much older – confusing people into thinking that the bible must be wrong, and condemning them to hell for their conclusion.

He gave humans paradise - then goes out of his way to set up the conditions under which man may easily disobey him and be cast out. Just for shits and giggles, not only does he put the forbidden fruit very close by, he allows the devil to talk eve into eating it. Yup, benevolent as hell.

But, of course, like darkness is the absence of light, and cold of heat, so is evil the absence of god… except that sort of destroys the “omnipresent” part of your sky wizard myth, to suggest there could be a place that god is not.

Also, there is a dome above the earth keeping the waters of heaven out, the sun and moon are in this dome, blah blah blah.

God created plants before the sun, even though plants need the sun to exist. He did this backwards, in a totally impossible way, to combat arguments that the genesis myth is a metaphor. Read that again: because the theory makes no sense, it is more reasonable. Also, god will go that far out of his way, but refuses proof of himself.

Because we already HAVE enough proof, as a poster in this thread said – proof being old, impossible stories that are impossible to verify and wildy rediculous explanations of the world around us. Proof in answered prayers - while the unanswered prayers are not supposed to affect our believing at all.

Sky wizard doesn’t exist. I’ll bet my soul on it.

[IrishSteel]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I’ll bet my soul on it. :P[/quote]

You already have . . .

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I’m sorry, you were busy making so much sense.

Your all powerful, all loving god allows evil to exist, and will punish his most beloved creations for eternity if they dont think like you do.
[/quote]

Well what do you define as evil? What events would these include. G-d does not choose to punish creations for eternity. His creations choose it on themselves, we have free will, so if someone does something to separate himself from G-d, then that is not G-d’s doing, that is the persons fault since they have free will. You would not blame the parents of a 20 year old man, for him knocking over a corner store.

He made the earth 6 thousand years ago, then made it so that every reliable form of dating consistantly shows objects to be much older – confusing people into thinking that the bible must be wrong, and condemning them to hell for their conclusion.

Well, I am not sure were you get 6 thousand years, but the earth is much older than that. I still do not place much regard on some dating methods. Though that does not mean the earth is 6,000 years old. No the Bible is not wrong, it is actually inerrant. However it is limited because of human ability. Either way, the whole Bible is not a historical book, so Genesis (as I am sure you are referring to) is not a story with a time frame that is not the actual time frame of the world.

He gave humans paradise - then goes out of his way to set up the conditions under which man may easily disobey him and be cast out. Just for shits and giggles, not only does he put the forbidden fruit very close by, he allows the devil to talk eve into eating it. Yup, benevolent as hell.

I think you forget about the freewill thing, G-d wanted us to freely choose to worship Him as he already had angels, which have no freewill. And the latter reasons are why He sent His only begotten son to die for our sins.

But, of course, like darkness is the absence of light, and cold of heat, so is evil the absence of god… except that sort of destroys the “omnipresent” part of your sky wizard myth, to suggest there could be a place that god is not.

G-d cannot force Himself on us. Free will, if you have a hard time understanding that concept, I’ll explain further.

Also, there is a dome above the earth keeping the waters of heaven out, the sun and moon are in this dome, blah blah blah.

What dome are you speaking of because obviously this is a straw-man as this does not actually give counter-examples to actual Theology, and instead is just a refutation of a weaker and twisted version of theology of Christians.

God created plants before the sun, even though plants need the sun to exist. He did this backwards, in a totally impossible way, to combat arguments that the genesis myth is a metaphor. Read that again: because the theory makes no sense, it is more reasonable. Also, god will go that far out of his way, but refuses proof of himself.

Yeah, I’m still not sure what you are talking about. The 6 days of creation is a symbolic story, however the first day there was light.

How does He refuse proof of Himself?

Because we already HAVE enough proof, as a poster in this thread said – proof being old, impossible stories that are impossible to verify and wildy rediculous explanations of the world around us. Proof in answered prayers - while the unanswered prayers are not supposed to affect our believing at all.

Majority of my prayers have been answered, and what proof have you found. So far you still have maintained a watered-down, weak, and corrupted version of ACTUAL theology, so that is not really arguing against what Christianity believes. Come back when you have an argument against ACTUAL theology. Thanks.

[quote]
Sky wizard doesn’t exist. I’ll bet my soul on it. :P[/quote]

Sky Wizard, huh? You are a real gentleman.

[anonym]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No the Bible is not wrong, it is actually inerrant. However it is limited because of human ability.[/quote]

What do you mean by this?

[pat]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I’m sorry, you were busy making so much sense.

Your all powerful, all loving god allows evil to exist, and will punish his most beloved creations for eternity if they dont think like you do.

He made the earth 6 thousand years ago, then made it so that every reliable form of dating consistantly shows objects to be much older – confusing people into thinking that the bible must be wrong, and condemning them to hell for their conclusion.

He gave humans paradise - then goes out of his way to set up the conditions under which man may easily disobey him and be cast out. Just for shits and giggles, not only does he put the forbidden fruit very close by, he allows the devil to talk eve into eating it. Yup, benevolent as hell.

But, of course, like darkness is the absence of light, and cold of heat, so is evil the absence of god… except that sort of destroys the “omnipresent” part of your sky wizard myth, to suggest there could be a place that god is not.

Also, there is a dome above the earth keeping the waters of heaven out, the sun and moon are in this dome, blah blah blah.

God created plants before the sun, even though plants need the sun to exist. He did this backwards, in a totally impossible way, to combat arguments that the genesis myth is a metaphor. Read that again: because the theory makes no sense, it is more reasonable. Also, god will go that far out of his way, but refuses proof of himself.

Because we already HAVE enough proof, as a poster in this thread said – proof being old, impossible stories that are impossible to verify and wildy rediculous explanations of the world around us. Proof in answered prayers - while the unanswered prayers are not supposed to affect our believing at all.

Sky wizard doesn’t exist. I’ll bet my soul on it. :P[/quote]

Put your soul where your mouth is…Prove that all that exists comes from utter nothingness and I’ll join you…