Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
No she was an evil woman who needlessly prolonged and worsened the suffering of others instead of trying to help them.[/quote]

Wait a sec here.

Again, I’m not much of a believer either, but “she was an evil woman?”

Not, “she was misguided,” or “she made lots of mistakes,” but “she was evil?”

That’s quite the claim, and, frankly, it would (and IMO, should) take more than one book written by a guy with an agenda to convince an objective person that someone with her reputation was out-and-out “evil.”

It’s kind of hard to believe that you’re not “convinced” of this fact primarly because it fits with your own agenda.

Although I guess it IS possible that the whole damned world has been duped into believing that her “evil” actions were actually primarily altruistic…

Nah, don’t think so.[/quote]

I guess it depends on your definition of evil. To me someone that claims to be doing good whilst deliberately prolonging suffering fits my definition of evil.[/quote]

Oh you mean, not letting people kill themselves, or assisting in suicide? How did she prolong suffering?

[quote]
Of course my reaction to her is tinged by how wrong the common perception is but that not withstanding, having it in your power to alleviate suffering but deliberately prolonging it is in my mind evil.

Hitchens is not the only person to have criticized her. She has been even been cited in medical journals for the horrific standards she kept in her hospices.[/quote]

I’m sure he is not the only person who has an axe to grind, those people alone probably are enough to make it seem like truth.

Yes, I am sure a charity hospices are going to be up to standard compared to others. Just like I expect the room in a homeless shelter to be as elegant as the room in my mansion.[/quote]

She denied them medicine and mixed incurable people with people who would have got better were it not for the infections they got from the dying causing them to die. She had totally incompetent people caring for the patients and she used the millions of dollars that she raised to publicise herself and poselytise instead of using it to help the sick and dying.[/quote]

These are some pretty serious claims. You wouldn’t happen to have any proof, besides Hitchens saying he heard her say it?

102

I found his and I couldn’t stop laughing here ya go.

103

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< I would challenge that. What one thing do I believe dogmatically?[/quote]
That you are not dogmatic.[/quote]

…you wouldn’t want give a bald man a haircut, would you? Yet you insist that that bald man needs a haircut, when there’s no hair to be cut. He is bald. There’s no hair. No hair. At all. Insisting the bald man needs a haircut, that he’s wrong to believe he’s bald, altough anyone can see he has no hair and thus a haircut is unnecessary, is folly. I’m going to bed now, to hopefully sleep a dreamless sleep, and i’ll check this thread tomorrow confident that nothing’s changed…[/quote]

You did admit there that he has a belief about the state of his head though.[/quote]

…this is important, so i’ll put it in caps [but i’m not shouting]:

THAT SOMEONE ELSE CLAIMS HE HAS A BELIEF ABOUT SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN HE IN FACT HAS A BELIEF ABOUT THAT SOMETHING

…iow, why would he believe he is bald when he sees himself in the mirror everyday without hair?

104

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
No she was an evil woman who needlessly prolonged and worsened the suffering of others instead of trying to help them.[/quote]

Wait a sec here.

Again, I’m not much of a believer either, but “she was an evil woman?”

Not, “she was misguided,” or “she made lots of mistakes,” but “she was evil?”

That’s quite the claim, and, frankly, it would (and IMO, should) take more than one book written by a guy with an agenda to convince an objective person that someone with her reputation was out-and-out “evil.”

It’s kind of hard to believe that you’re not “convinced” of this fact primarly because it fits with your own agenda.

Although I guess it IS possible that the whole damned world has been duped into believing that her “evil” actions were actually primarily altruistic…

Nah, don’t think so.[/quote]

this.

105

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< he sees himself in the mirror everyday without hair? >>>
[/quote]Damn, it was what I thought, but therein lies the key. He CANNOT see that hair because it is in a world that he is dead to despite the fact that it is on his own head every second of every day. Once made alive to the “kingdom of hair” THERE IT IS!!! And on top of that there is everyone else’s too!!! And an entire breathtaking reality to go long with it.
Ephesians 2:1-10

107

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< he sees himself in the mirror everyday without hair? >>>
[/quote]Damn, it was what I thought, but therein lies the key. He CANNOT see that hair because it is in a world that he is dead to despite the fact that it is on his own head every second of every day. Once made alive to the “kingdom of hair” THERE IT IS!!! And on top of that there is everyone else’s too!!! And an entire breathtaking reality to go long with it.
Ephesians 2:1-10

Got to say, Tirib, you certainly seem to know your Bible… <That’s a compliment>[/quote]

X2

108

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< he sees himself in the mirror everyday without hair? >>>
[/quote]Damn, it was what I thought, but therein lies the key. He CANNOT see that hair because it is in a world that he is dead to despite the fact that it is on his own head every second of every day. Once made alive to the “kingdom of hair” THERE IT IS!!! And on top of that there is everyone else’s too!!! And an entire breathtaking reality to go long with it.
Ephesians 2:1-10

…aaaaand we’re off to la-la land. This suspension of reality in favor of beliefs, that i’ll never be able to do. It’s good that it gave you the ability to make some much needed changes in your life, but christianity [or whichever religion] will never be my cup of tea. Thank you and goodbye for now…

109

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
No she was an evil woman who needlessly prolonged and worsened the suffering of others instead of trying to help them.[/quote]

Wait a sec here.

Again, I’m not much of a believer either, but “she was an evil woman?”

Not, “she was misguided,” or “she made lots of mistakes,” but “she was evil?”

That’s quite the claim, and, frankly, it would (and IMO, should) take more than one book written by a guy with an agenda to convince an objective person that someone with her reputation was out-and-out “evil.”

It’s kind of hard to believe that you’re not “convinced” of this fact primarly because it fits with your own agenda.

Although I guess it IS possible that the whole damned world has been duped into believing that her “evil” actions were actually primarily altruistic…

Nah, don’t think so.[/quote]

I guess it depends on your definition of evil. To me someone that claims to be doing good whilst deliberately prolonging suffering fits my definition of evil.[/quote]

Oh you mean, not letting people kill themselves, or assisting in suicide? How did she prolong suffering?

[quote]
Of course my reaction to her is tinged by how wrong the common perception is but that not withstanding, having it in your power to alleviate suffering but deliberately prolonging it is in my mind evil.

Hitchens is not the only person to have criticized her. She has been even been cited in medical journals for the horrific standards she kept in her hospices.[/quote]

I’m sure he is not the only person who has an axe to grind, those people alone probably are enough to make it seem like truth.

Yes, I am sure a charity hospices are going to be up to standard compared to others. Just like I expect the room in a homeless shelter to be as elegant as the room in my mansion.[/quote]

She denied them medicine and mixed incurable people with people who would have got better were it not for the infections they got from the dying causing them to die. She had totally incompetent people caring for the patients and she used the millions of dollars that she raised to publicise herself and poselytise instead of using it to help the sick and dying.[/quote]

These are some pretty serious claims. You wouldn’t happen to have any proof, besides Hitchens saying he heard her say it?[/quote]

Yes, it was reported in the Lancet, the Guardian, the Telegraph and by numerous people who visited and worked there (amongst others.)

110

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
No she was an evil woman who needlessly prolonged and worsened the suffering of others instead of trying to help them.[/quote]

Wait a sec here.

Again, I’m not much of a believer either, but “she was an evil woman?”

Not, “she was misguided,” or “she made lots of mistakes,” but “she was evil?”

That’s quite the claim, and, frankly, it would (and IMO, should) take more than one book written by a guy with an agenda to convince an objective person that someone with her reputation was out-and-out “evil.”

It’s kind of hard to believe that you’re not “convinced” of this fact primarly because it fits with your own agenda.

Although I guess it IS possible that the whole damned world has been duped into believing that her “evil” actions were actually primarily altruistic…

Nah, don’t think so.[/quote]

this.[/quote]

Even she clearly stated on numerous occasions that her actions were not altruistic, they were based on her desire to convert more to Catholicism.

111

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< he sees himself in the mirror everyday without hair? >>>
[/quote]Damn, it was what I thought, but therein lies the key. He CANNOT see that hair because it is in a world that he is dead to despite the fact that it is on his own head every second of every day. Once made alive to the “kingdom of hair” THERE IT IS!!! And on top of that there is everyone else’s too!!! And an entire breathtaking reality to go long with it.
Ephesians 2:1-10

…aaaaand we’re off to la-la land. This suspension of reality in favor of beliefs, that i’ll never be able to do. It’s good that it gave you the ability to make some much needed changes in your life, but christianity [or whichever religion] will never be my cup of tea. Thank you and goodbye for now…
[/quote]

x2

112

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< This suspension of reality in favor of beliefs, that I’ll never be able to do. >>>[/quote]Absolutely correct my friend. You never will be able to do it. How do I know? Because I know I wouldn’t have been able to do it either.
Again from the 2nd of Ephesians:[quote]But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus[/quote]What to you is the “suspension of reality in favor of belief” is to the new creature in Christ reality itself. I make no assertions that the gospel of the exalted Christ is possible or even probable. I loudly proclaim the insufferably intolerant and dogmatic truth that anything else is IMpossible.

113

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Got to say, Tirib, you certainly seem to know your Bible… <That’s a compliment>[/quote]

X2[/quote]You gentlemen credit me far beyond my merit, but I thank you nonetheless. However, even more important than whatever I may know of the Word is the fact that I am myself known by the Word.
Hebrews 4:12-16

114

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< This suspension of reality in favor of beliefs, that I’ll never be able to do. >>>[/quote]Absolutely correct my friend. You never will be able to do it. How do I know? Because I know I wouldn’t have been able to do it either.
Again from the 1st of Ephesians:[quote]But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus[/quote]What to you is the “suspension of reality in favor of belief” is to the new creature in Christ reality itself. I make no assertions that the gospel of the exalted Christ is possible or even probable. I loudly proclaim the insufferably intolerant and dogmatic truth that anything else is IMpossible.[/quote]

Tirib are you some sort of minister? Serious question, because many of your posts sound like sermons, and not just because of the Bible quotes. I mean that as a compliment - while I have no use for sermons I can see how your words could inspire believers. As an aside, Bill Maher had a great quote in Religulous regarding church attendance and sermons. He said it was like war: periods of intense boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. I concur.

I’ve also never met anyone who said that it was IMpossible for the Gospels and Jesus story to be anything but true. That’s interesting. Was there anything else in your life besides your dramatic turnaround from a life going downhill that caused this level of faith?

115

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
<<< Tirib are you some sort of minister?[/quote]No [quote]MikeTheBear wrote: Serious question, because many of your posts sound like sermons, and not just because of the Bible quotes. I mean that as a compliment >>>[/quote] When conversing about my faith that’s just how I speak and… thanks? I guess? =] [quote]MikeTheBear wrote: <<< while I have no use for sermons I can see how your words could inspire believers. As an aside, Bill Maher had a great quote in Religulous regarding church attendance and sermons. He said it was like war: periods of intense boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. I concur. >>>[/quote] I still haven’t seen the movie, though it’s sitting here next to me. “Sermons” is a meaningless term by itself. They can vary enormously in quality of both content and delivery. Powerful content can save a weak delivery, but the powerful delivery of weak or plain bad content is the essence of deception and is warned about all over the bible.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:<<< I’ve also never met anyone who said that it was IMpossible for the Gospels and Jesus story to be anything but true. That’s interesting. Was there anything else in your life besides your dramatic turnaround from a life going downhill that caused this level of faith? >>>[/quote]You misunderstand and understandably so. The dramatic turnaround in my life is not the reason for my faith. It is the very happy result of my faith. I was already clean and sober for over a year when I got saved and I repented of my deplorable several years of backsliding 5 years ago before I lost my job. What brought me into His arms and then back was not desperation over earthly turmoil as you no doubt believe.

Mike says: “Well it’s certainly understandable that under extreme stress some weaker people will grope around for security and if the stress is heavy enough they can convince themselves that snakes can talk and some seemingly very nice guy who died 2000 years ago was God and now lives in their heart… whatever the hell that means. Who am I as a happy benevolent atheist to attempt to take that from them regardless of how nauseatingly asinine it is?” Pretty close? I would be surprised if a few PM’s to that effect hadn’t gone back and forth.

However you are dead wrong (pun?). There is no way to scientifically dissect, study and report on the experience of “knowing” the one true God who is actually there, but He is and I do. He loved me no matter how unlovable I succeeded in making myself. He didn’t condemn and terrify me into repentance. I’m His son. He loved me until I couldn’t stand MYSELF anymore. “Ahhhh” you say, “there is that ultra subjective self delusion rearing it’s ugly head again” I am ill equipped for anything further than telling you the truth.

Whether you or anybody else believes it or not is in the hands of the Holy Spirit. From this side of the spiritual grave, the eternal gospel of the risen Christ, conceived by the Father, accomplished by the Son and applied the Spirit is the first “fact” defining all others. It is not possible for anything else including you and all your skepticism to exist apart from it.

116

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

She denied them medicine and mixed incurable people with people who would have got better were it not for the infections they got from the dying causing them to die. She had totally incompetent people caring for the patients and she used the millions of dollars that she raised to publicise herself and poselytise instead of using it to help the sick and dying.[/quote]

She wasn’t running a hospital. She ran an order that did charitable work…

She started homes (alongside orphanages, etc.) for the dying (actually called "Home for the Dying) staffed by volunteers. You know why I think the monstrous Hitchens has such a hard time with her? Because she wasn’t a government official. His socialistic atheism is revolted by the idea that secular people, atheistic people (especially government employees), could never accomplish what she did. For what ever faults you might find with her nuns and volunteers, before their arrival these same people would’ve died in an alley. He’s angry because government failed and an old frail nun had to step in.

I sincerely hope that if the man loses his battle, he’ll be shown more respect than he ever gave.

117

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

She denied them medicine and mixed incurable people with people who would have got better were it not for the infections they got from the dying causing them to die. She had totally incompetent people caring for the patients and she used the millions of dollars that she raised to publicise herself and poselytise instead of using it to help the sick and dying.[/quote]

She wasn’t running a hospital. She ran an order that did charitable work…

She started homes (alongside orphanages, etc.) for the dying (actually called "Home for the Dying) staffed by volunteers. You know why I think the monstrous Hitchens has such a hard time with her? Because she wasn’t a government official. His socialistic atheism is revolted by the idea that secular people, atheistic people (especially government employees), could never accomplish what she did.

For what ever faults you might find with her nuns and volunteers, before their arrival these same people would’ve died in an alley. He’s angry because government failed and an old frail nun had to step in.

I sincerely hope that if the man loses his battle, he’ll be shown more respect than he ever gave.[/quote]

Word, there is actually quite a few of my Catholic brethren who are praying for the man, and I’ve gotten quite a few of my philosophy teachers who have actually asked me to pray for him, because they know “I pray for my enemies.”

Strange how when someone you care about get’s sick people seem to go to the religious people (even though they are do not believe in G-d), but they’ll still tell you are wrong in an argument. I think it is pride, plain and simple.

119

Tirib, thanks for the response.

And on an unrelated note, here is a great (not great if you’re a theist/religious person) quote I found:

“Atheism isn’t a religion. It’s a personal relationship with reality.”

120

Eucharist

Mark 16:12 - And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.