Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. >>>[/quote] This story is absolutely percolating with profound possibilities, every one of which loudly declares the providence, decrees and election of God

Deception comes in many packages, but the result is always the same. Anything but Jesus. Here’s a tip. Satan (we’ve barely even talked about him) keeps some of his champions of wickedness as healthy and happy as he can for obvious reasons.
[/quote]

…so, what about Satan?

302

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

303

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirah�??�?�£, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.[/quote]

Sad to say the least. Although in the end it is unremarkable. People become believers from skeptics and believers become skeptics all the time. [/quote]

…i didn’t post the clip to show someone who lost his faith, but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. A life after death didn’t seem to matter to them, and why should it? We’re asked to believe in something no one has proven to exist on the basis of faith, and altough i understand why someone would like to believe there’s an afterlife, or a heaven where we spend an eternity with our loved ones, it’s a mirage of your own making…[/quote]

Fair enough, but they also seemed to lack empathy towards other peoples pain (specifically his when he expressed the suicide of his mother). With out reading his book, or actually being able to observe them myself it is tough to get a full picture on the whole situation of what is admirable with them vs. what is lacking.

304

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i’d have to take in to account whether they’d pose a threat to my tribe if they became more succesful, but if they were not and open to suggestions, sure why not? I certainly wouldn’t try to convince them of C against their wishes though…
[/quote]

Right, of course, not against their wishes.

Okay, so, you would say to this tribe, “hey, just some friendly advice guys, ‘why don’t you try C. because look at how your quality of life will improve?’”

Assuming** that the tribe is filled with reasonable human beings who care about their own quality of life, they would embrace C. as their principle/value/practice so that their sickness and hunger might be alleviated, reduced or even nearly eliminated.

And given our assumptions, that would make sense, right?

**Along with the potential threat you mentioned, above; let’s grant this assumption and deal with it in a moment, okay?

[/quote]

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

LOL…no chopping block. I’m doing this because I like you and find you interesting - not because I’m trying to get you.

Let me ask you this now: why might this interchange demonstrate that you are not a relativist, in either sense you’ve mentioned above?

Care to guess?

[/quote]

…nah, that’s allright. Tell me why you think i’m not a moral relativist based on your little scenario?

305

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i’d have to take in to account whether they’d pose a threat to my tribe if they became more succesful, but if they were not and open to suggestions, sure why not? I certainly wouldn’t try to convince them of C against their wishes though…
[/quote]

Right, of course, not against their wishes.

Okay, so, you would say to this tribe, “hey, just some friendly advice guys, ‘why don’t you try C. because look at how your quality of life will improve?’”

Assuming** that the tribe is filled with reasonable human beings who care about their own quality of life, they would embrace C. as their principle/value/practice so that their sickness and hunger might be alleviated, reduced or even nearly eliminated.

And given our assumptions, that would make sense, right?

**Along with the potential threat you mentioned, above; let’s grant this assumption and deal with it in a moment, okay?

[/quote]

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

LOL…no chopping block. I’m doing this because I like you and find you interesting - not because I’m trying to get you.

Let me ask you this now: why might this interchange demonstrate that you are not a relativist, in either sense you’ve mentioned above?

Care to guess?

[/quote]

…nah, that’s allright. Tell me why you think i’m not a moral relativist based on your little scenario?[/quote]

Why not? Go ahead, eph. Don’t be afraid. Take a guess. :slight_smile:

306

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirah�??�??�?�£, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.[/quote]

Sad to say the least. Although in the end it is unremarkable. People become believers from skeptics and believers become skeptics all the time. [/quote]

…i didn’t post the clip to show someone who lost his faith, but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. A life after death didn’t seem to matter to them, and why should it? We’re asked to believe in something no one has proven to exist on the basis of faith, and altough i understand why someone would like to believe there’s an afterlife, or a heaven where we spend an eternity with our loved ones, it’s a mirage of your own making…[/quote]

Fair enough, but they also seemed to lack empathy towards other peoples pain (specifically his when he expressed the suicide of his mother). With out reading his book, or actually being able to observe them myself it is tough to get a full picture on the whole situation of what is admirable with them vs. what is lacking. [/quote]

…that’s true: they couldn’t imagine why anyone would kill themselves and subsequently couldn’t empathise with Daniel’s pain. Why is that, in this context, important [to you]?

307

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…nah, that’s allright. Tell me why you think i’m not a moral relativist based on your little scenario?[/quote]

Why not? Go ahead, eph. Don’t be afraid. Take a guess. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

…seriously, i have no idea and i suck at guessing games. Sorry katz, but i’m not playing (:

308

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…nah, that’s allright. Tell me why you think i’m not a moral relativist based on your little scenario?[/quote]

Why not? Go ahead, eph. Don’t be afraid. Take a guess. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

…seriously, i have no idea and i suck at guessing games. Sorry katz, but i’m not playing (:
[/quote]

I’m only asking you to guess because you yourself said you knew where this is going.

309

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

310

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<<…i’m on my side, not anyone else’s…<<<>>> and those i care for (from below) >>>[/quote]There’s that broken image of God again.

[quote]ephrem wrote:…<<< i was trying to show how virtually everyone is in some way a moral relativist due to cultural and social differences. We may not always be aware of this though, and that was what i tried to show with the circumcision example… >>>[/quote]Come on buddy, you’re welcome any time. No need to sneak into my “camp” and use my stuff when I’m not lookin =][quote]Ephrem wrote:…don’t presume to know me, you don’t. You can’t. >>>[/quote]Oh yes I can. I’ll don the full armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-18) for this one. How can I know you? Because, for all of our individuality, which is completely real, people are ALL THE SAME. There’s one God in who’s broken image we are ALL born. You have expressed nothing I haven’t heard one thousand times already from other people because… wait for it… we’re all the same. You will really really REALLY hate hearing that, but is in fact the case, myself included.[quote]ephrem wrote:What i value i value because of the emotional investment i made; how it affects my life and myself, and those i care for, in a positive way. That’s real, tangible, and changes in those values affect me deeply for better of worse. It does not need a belief in god to become superluminous because life itself is unequivocal…[/quote]Is it really now? “My emotional investment in myself? On who’s side only I am on? Until we get further into this post and find out I choose to care for others and be deeply affected for better or worse because life itself is unequivocal due to no actually substantive reason beyond my really wanting it to be that way?” That’s not meaning, it’s desperation.

311

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirah�??�??�??�?�£, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.[/quote]

Sad to say the least. Although in the end it is unremarkable. People become believers from skeptics and believers become skeptics all the time. [/quote]

…i didn’t post the clip to show someone who lost his faith, but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. A life after death didn’t seem to matter to them, and why should it? We’re asked to believe in something no one has proven to exist on the basis of faith, and altough i understand why someone would like to believe there’s an afterlife, or a heaven where we spend an eternity with our loved ones, it’s a mirage of your own making…[/quote]

Fair enough, but they also seemed to lack empathy towards other peoples pain (specifically his when he expressed the suicide of his mother). With out reading his book, or actually being able to observe them myself it is tough to get a full picture on the whole situation of what is admirable with them vs. what is lacking. [/quote]

…that’s true: they couldn’t imagine why anyone would kill themselves and subsequently couldn’t empathise with Daniel’s pain. Why is that, in this context, important [to you]?
[/quote]

It is interesting to me b\c I am developing some material on the problem of evil\pain. In it I site the buddhist attempts to live with out attachments and in doing so it requires them to lose care, and emotion for fellow Humans.

With in that context as well as the one you provided it seems that the logical conclusion of that type of thought breeds an indifference to suffering. Which leads to an indifference to others suffering.

Which presents a set of problems with in themselves, but I have not had time to sit down and digest what the full implications of that are.

so no real point, just my observations and curiosity

312

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

[/quote]

…yeah but that was like, there’s something in the distance but i can’t quite put my finger on it but maybe… aaaahhh no, it was on the tip of my tongue. Perhaps you meant that something relative becomes absolute?

313

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s true: they couldn’t imagine why anyone would kill themselves and subsequently couldn’t empathise with Daniel’s pain. Why is that, in this context, important [to you]?
[/quote]

It is interesting to me b\c I am developing some material on the problem of evil\pain. In it I site the buddhist attempts to live with out attachments and in doing so it requires them to lose care, and emotion for fellow Humans.

With in that context as well as the one you provided it seems that the logical conclusion of that type of thought breeds an indifference to suffering. Which leads to an indifference to others suffering.

Which presents a set of problems with in themselves, but I have not had time to sit down and digest what the full implications of that are.

so no real point, just my observations and curiosity
[/quote]

…i’m sorry haney, i’m far from a buddhist but there’s no doubt in my mind that the buddhist path of freeing onesself from suffering does not require you to lose care and emotion for human beings. To the contrary! By becoming aware of the reasons for one’s own suffering, one also becomes acutely aware of why other people suffer. If anything, understanding of why there’s suffering allows for great empathy towards fellow human beings…

…that empathy may not be shown within the confines of our socially accepted norms, but that does not mean indifference to suffering at all. No really haney, you are wrong to think this, and if you are in the process of writing a pamflet or booklet or whatever, please try to find a buddhist center near you and interview monks there if you’re serious about providing well balanced information…

314

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<<…i’m on my side, not anyone else’s…<<<>>> and those i care for (from below) >>>[/quote]There’s that broken image of God again.

…whatever you say dude; whatever you say…

315

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

[/quote]

…yeah but that was like, there’s something in the distance but i can’t quite put my finger on it but maybe… aaaahhh no, it was on the tip of my tongue. Perhaps you meant that something relative becomes absolute?
[/quote]

Any idea what that might be?

Come on, Eph, you’re a smart guy. Why not just say it?

316

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

[/quote]

…yeah but that was like, there’s something in the distance but i can’t quite put my finger on it but maybe… aaaahhh no, it was on the tip of my tongue. Perhaps you meant that something relative becomes absolute?
[/quote]

Any idea what that might be?

Come on, Eph, you’re a smart guy. Why not just say it? [/quote]

…what, god? Are you now suggesting that god is [just] an idea? A relative set of instructions that happen to be succesful? Come on already, this game is boring!

317

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…[/quote]

Right here, see?^^

[/quote]

…yeah but that was like, there’s something in the distance but i can’t quite put my finger on it but maybe… aaaahhh no, it was on the tip of my tongue. Perhaps you meant that something relative becomes absolute?
[/quote]

Any idea what that might be?

Come on, Eph, you’re a smart guy. Why not just say it? [/quote]

…what, god? Are you now suggesting that god is [just] an idea? A relative set of instructions that happen to be succesful? Come on already, this game is boring!
[/quote]

Yes, admittedly, actually thinking through things can be tedious.

I’m not suggesting anything - I am certainly not suggesting anything about God.

The answer is already in the interchange itself. You’ve already said it. In a sense the game is over - I’m just hoping you can see it for yourself.

318

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what, god? Are you now suggesting that god is [just] an idea? A relative set of instructions that happen to be succesful? Come on already, this game is boring!
[/quote]

Yes, admittedly, actually thinking through things can be tedious.

I’m not suggesting anything - I am certainly not suggesting anything about God.

The answer is already in the interchange itself. You’ve already said it. In a sense the game is over - I’m just hoping you can see it for yourself.

[/quote]

…aaaww katz, if you never had a point to make just say so, now you’re just shifting the blame on me for not making yours!

319

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…what, god? Are you now suggesting that god is [just] an idea? A relative set of instructions that happen to be succesful? Come on already, this game is boring!
[/quote]

Yes, admittedly, actually thinking through things can be tedious.

I’m not suggesting anything - I am certainly not suggesting anything about God.

The answer is already in the interchange itself. You’ve already said it. In a sense the game is over - I’m just hoping you can see it for yourself.

[/quote]

…aaaww katz, if you never had a point to make just say so, now you’re just shifting the blame on me for not making yours![/quote]

Nice try :slight_smile:

I think you see the answer - and I think you know your position.

Listen, I know you well enough to know that you’re highly intelligent; but you are also a very slippery fellow. Too slippery for your own good, in my humble opinion.

So you might say that in asking you to answer the question, I’m looking out for your welfare.

320

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…that’s good to know Tiribulus; that you’re not a nutcase (:

…this thread: Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness was a good one. Great discussion with Cortes, and a good learning experience. The wiki-definition i posted earlier does reflect my opinion pretty accurately, though…[/quote]

I think you meant that. Like I’ve told you before. Nothing I believe began with me or some modern one note movement. I will look at that thread.

And oh yeah, yes it IS necessary that we pray for you. I have no idea what your future holds, but I do know two things for sure. One is that God has put you specifically on my heart for some reason. Two is that I cannot help but love somebody I’m praying for and that helps me in these conversations.[/quote]

…i’m not sure what to say to this except, thank you…
[/quote]The pleasure really is mine. Lemme just say that you’ve misunderstood entirely if you think Christians, at least this one, is holding hell over your head as some sort of self satisfying weapon. IE, “yeah well you just wait, you’re sure gonna get yers come judgment day”

Yes, I believe hell is real and Yes, those not born again into the eternal life of the risen Son of God will be sentenced to it if they die in their sins, but no sir. I am not allowed and have no right to hope anybody goes there. I should be going there.[/quote]

…then i state again for the record that, if what you say about the afterlife is true, i’d rather burn in hell than to spend eternity in heaven. I could have been the biggest asshole ever to have existed, and still go to heaven after a sincere deathbed conversion. But if i lived my life according to my conscience, be kind and thoughtful and caring, without a belief in your god that would all be for nothing…

…it doesn’t matter how much you pray for me; if living a good life isn’t enough then i go down happily…
[/quote]

Getting sucked in, damnit…must resist.

Eph, as you know, I have a young son, not quite a year and a half old. For the most part, thankfully, he is a really good kid. He is very sociable, friendly, smiles a ton. He eats all his food, even his vegetables. He is very affectionate and loves to play, and he plays nice when he does. By pretty much anybody’s standard, anyone would say that I have a good kid.

My son, though, he has this one habit. He’s got lots and lots of toys, and he likes those toys. However, his favorite thing to play with is long, sharp pointy things. Now, he doesn’t mess up the house or hurt anyone else with them. He doesn’t poke things or make scratches or do anything wrong. However, I think you’ll agree that having your very young son, who’s just learning to walk, toddling around with two 16 inch chopsticks with very pointy ends…well, it’s just not a good situation, is it?

So I sometimes have to take those pointy things away from him. And you know what he does? He cries! He cries like crazy and he’s angry at me and sometimes he even throws himself down on the ground kicking and screaming. He just cannot believe the injustice. He cannot fathom why I would do such a cruel thing to him. And if I try and comfort him, at those times, by petting him or hugging him or trying to give him any other toy, woah buddy, I had better watch out, because he’s just not having none of that.

:slight_smile:

Your other issue about assholes having deathbed conversions is covered in the story of the prodigal son. I’m sure you know it, but if you haven’t recently, go back and give it a read. Even self-proclaimed morally-relativistic atheists should find the story itself beautiful.[/quote]

…goddammit! First i’m called a liar and now i’m like a child? Thanks buddy!
[/quote]

Oh come on, eph. You and I have gone round and round long enough that you know me better than to assume such behavior of me. Indeed, if I am name-calling here, then I do so in the inclusive plural, because this metaphor doesn’t only apply to you. As a mortal, I think that the system described here sounds pretty unfair, as well.

However, you are smarter than this, and I’m pretty disappointed you were so nonchalantly dismissive of my post. This is the thing: If you are going to assume God IS, then you are going to have to concede that the creator of all things would, in fact, have a better grasp on the true reasons behind his laws, and that there are going to be certain aspects of those laws which are beyond the comprehension of humans. Now, you don’t believe in God in the first place, and that’s a different thing altogether. I was just trying to illustrate to you that your flailing for the ballast in the face of rescue would indeed be rather silly.

If there is a God, like, for real, then you will have to stop looking at things from an atheist’s perspective.