Misconceptions of Christianity 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m on page 7 of that thread Ephrem. I’ll have to continue tomorrow. You will not be shocked to learn that I agree with Cortes. We’ve been over this too. If there is no supra human court beyond which there is no appeal? Everything is meaningless. Might does in fact make right in all cases, period.[/quote]

…welcome to reality…[/quote]And like a rebellious little child YOU have just called GOD a liar. But there’s no news in that because the entire human race outside of Christ has been doing it on a non stop basis since the 3rd of Genesis. They throw themselves on the floor and wail “I-WILL-DO-IT-MY-WAY-@^#%$$#*$$!!!” Of course they will call it “enlightenment”, “progress”, “advancement” and “education” or other such nose raising arrogance, but that doesn’t change what it is. A temper tantrum against God’s authority, which authority, once again Romans 1 says they are confronted with in everything including, indeed ESPECIALLY themselves. (you know, the ol broken image thing)

Ephrem my dear friend, on the previous page you expressed what I believe was genuine relief that I wouldn’t be someone who’s beliefs would support something like stoning my wife for adultery. Then you confidently propound a system (actually non system) of morality wherein a group such as a Muslim nation that has agreed on sharia law can with with your at least tacit nod, if you are consistent, do that very thing.

Your self constructed legoland reality is meaningless. By your own declaration in this last post it is, so rather than praying for and loving you I may as well curse you, call you names and call it a day, but I will not do that. I will not do that because in THE reality, which has been graciously made MY reality, praying for and loving people like you is among the primary reasons I open my eyes in the morning. Life is not an empty meaningless pursuit of self gratification to me anymore. I am not meaningless and regardless of what you think you believe neither are you. Don’t you see? You mean more to me than you do to yourself.

282

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m on page 7 of that thread Ephrem. I’ll have to continue tomorrow. You will not be shocked to learn that I agree with Cortes. We’ve been over this too. If there is no supra human court beyond which there is no appeal? Everything is meaningless. Might does in fact make right in all cases, period.[/quote]

…welcome to reality…[/quote]

And like a rebellious little child YOU have just called GOD a liar. But there’s no news in that because the entire human race outside of Christ has been doing it on a non stop basis since the 3rd of Genesis. They throw themselves on the floor and wail “I-WILL-DO-IT-MY-WAY-@^#%$$#*$$!!!” Of course they will call it “enlightenment”, “progress”, “advancement” and “education” or other such nose raising arrogance, but that doesn’t change what it is. A temper tantrum against God’s authority, which authority, once again Romans 1 says they are confronted with in everything including, indeed ESPECIALLY themselves. (you know, the ol broken image thing)[/quote]

…god exists only in your imagination T, and as far as might makes right; we see that on a daily basis all over the world. I may not like it, but people get away with murder, torture and other dreadful acts by saying it’s in our best interest, or to protect your freedoms. It is a fact of life that he who holds the biggest stick, gets to drink the water…

…do you oppose male circumcision? It is a socially accepted tradition in the USA to circumcise male babies regardless of religion or medical need, but far more people are opposed to female circumcision in Africa. Why is that? For the record, i oppose any kind of circumcision, barring medical reasons, without the child’s informed consent…

…you need to feel a certain way, and that need is satisfied by your religeous zeal. That’s it T, that is the only reason. It is still a selfish reason. The meaning i’ve found in my life may be meaningless to you but that is utterly inconsequential to me…

283

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…and i’m sure i refuted those points, but why that doesn’t sink in i don’t know. You don’t have to appeal to a higher order to be able to criticize or change something you don’t agree with. You simply need to make a good case why you think that something needs changing, that’s all…
[/quote]

Forget the “higher order.” Forget all that. You keep getting stuck on that. Just think logically.

If all you’ve ever known is A, you cannot reflect upon A (that is, consider the truth of it; assess it; judge it; criticize it, et cetera) unless you have something (a principle, a value, or whatnot) that is independent of A (did not arise out of A, cannot be explained by A, et cetera.)

That^ seems to me to be an indisputable proposition. Granting me the initial and conditional “if,” will you agree to this at least?

[/quote]

…you’re forgetting the greatest human ability: imagination. Yes, you may not have ever known something other than A, but a creative mind can imagine B or C or even D. That is enough. If the idea is potent enough, and there’s enough support for that idea, people can change their outlook even if the idea is radically different from what they’re accustom to…
[/quote]

Okay, good. So, via the imagination (and reason too - why not reason?) we can discover something (a principle, a value) outside of (independent of) A. by which to judge (assess, consider, reflect upon, criticize) A. Correct?
[/quote]

Correct.
[/quote]

Okay. So let’s say you discover B. (principle, value, whatever) via reason/imagination. And you’ve spent your whole life believing A; but you now believe B. to be far superior. Moreover, everyone else in your community still believes A.

Now, let’s take the first step. How did you judge B. to be superior to A.?

284

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

Okay, good. So, via the imagination (and reason too - why not reason?) we can discover something (a principle, a value) outside of (independent of) A. by which to judge (assess, consider, reflect upon, criticize) A. Correct?
[/quote]

Correct.
[/quote]

Okay. So let’s say you discover B. (principle, value, whatever) via reason/imagination. And you’ve spent your whole life believing A; but you now believe B. to be far superior. Moreover, everyone else in your community still believes A.

Now, let’s take the first step. How did you judge B. to be superior to A.?

[/quote]

…if i had to judge B’s superiority over A i’d take in to account the consequences of B for all people involved, and where it might take my society on a whole in the future…

285

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

Okay, good. So, via the imagination (and reason too - why not reason?) we can discover something (a principle, a value) outside of (independent of) A. by which to judge (assess, consider, reflect upon, criticize) A. Correct?
[/quote]

Correct.
[/quote]

Okay. So let’s say you discover B. (principle, value, whatever) via reason/imagination. And you’ve spent your whole life believing A; but you now believe B. to be far superior. Moreover, everyone else in your community still believes A.

Now, let’s take the first step. How did you judge B. to be superior to A.?

[/quote]

…if i had to judge B’s superiority over A i’d take in to account the consequences of B for all people involved, and where it might take my society on a whole in the future…[/quote]

I really think we both might learn something here Eph. Let’s see where this ends up.

Okay, so in judging the relative merits between A. & B., you would consider where A. versus B. might take your society as a whole towards the future.

How would you judge whether that direction/goal is a good or bad one?

286

Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirahã, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.

Christian Missionary Deconverted by Tribe - YouTube!

287

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

Okay, good. So, via the imagination (and reason too - why not reason?) we can discover something (a principle, a value) outside of (independent of) A. by which to judge (assess, consider, reflect upon, criticize) A. Correct?
[/quote]

Correct.
[/quote]

Okay. So let’s say you discover B. (principle, value, whatever) via reason/imagination. And you’ve spent your whole life believing A; but you now believe B. to be far superior. Moreover, everyone else in your community still believes A.

Now, let’s take the first step. How did you judge B. to be superior to A.?

[/quote]

…if i had to judge B’s superiority over A i’d take in to account the consequences of B for all people involved, and where it might take my society on a whole in the future…[/quote]

I really think we both might learn something here Eph. Let’s see where this ends up.

Okay, so in judging the relative merits between A. & B., you would consider where A. versus B. might take your society as a whole towards the future.

How would you judge whether that direction/goal is a good or bad one?

[/quote]

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…

288

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

Okay, good. So, via the imagination (and reason too - why not reason?) we can discover something (a principle, a value) outside of (independent of) A. by which to judge (assess, consider, reflect upon, criticize) A. Correct?
[/quote]

Correct.
[/quote]

Okay. So let’s say you discover B. (principle, value, whatever) via reason/imagination. And you’ve spent your whole life believing A; but you now believe B. to be far superior. Moreover, everyone else in your community still believes A.

Now, let’s take the first step. How did you judge B. to be superior to A.?

[/quote]

…if i had to judge B’s superiority over A i’d take in to account the consequences of B for all people involved, and where it might take my society on a whole in the future…[/quote]

I really think we both might learn something here Eph. Let’s see where this ends up.

Okay, so in judging the relative merits between A. & B., you would consider where A. versus B. might take your society as a whole towards the future.

How would you judge whether that direction/goal is a good or bad one?

[/quote]

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…[/quote]

Fair enough. “Quality of life for all your people” is the ultimate yardstick then?

289

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…[/quote]

Fair enough. “Quality of life for all your people” is the ultimate yardstick then?

[/quote]

…more or less. I can imagine a kindhearted person like me would not want that quality to be dependant on the misery of others, so we’d have to take in to account aswell. I have errands to run, but i’ll be back…

290

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…[/quote]

Fair enough. “Quality of life for all your people” is the ultimate yardstick then?

[/quote]

…more or less. I can imagine a kindhearted person like me would not want that quality to be dependant on the misery of others, so we’d have to take in to account aswell. I have errands to run, but i’ll be back…
[/quote]

Indeed. Okay, so let’s call it (“quality of life”) your “Yardstick.”

Now suppose you met another tribe. That tribe believes in C. Using your trusty Yardstick, you discover that, in fact, C is even better. Would you now adopt C. as the preferred principle/value?

291

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirah�£, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.

Sad to say the least. Although in the end it is unremarkable. People become believers from skeptics and believers become skeptics all the time.

292

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…[/quote]

Fair enough. “Quality of life for all your people” is the ultimate yardstick then?

[/quote]

…more or less. I can imagine a kindhearted person like me would not want that quality to be dependant on the misery of others, so we’d have to take in to account aswell. I have errands to run, but i’ll be back…
[/quote]

Indeed. Okay, so let’s call it (“quality of life”) your “Yardstick.”

Now suppose you met another tribe. That tribe believes in C. Using your trusty Yardstick, you discover that, in fact, C is even better. Would you now adopt C. as the preferred principle/value?
[/quote]

…i guess i would, sure…

293

[quote]Ephrem wrote:
<<< …god exists only in your imagination T, and as far as might makes right; we see that on a daily basis all over the world. I may not like it, but people get away with murder, torture and other dreadful acts by saying it’s in our best interest, or to protect your freedoms. It is a fact of life that he who holds the biggest stick, gets to drink the water…>>>[/quote]Emphasis mine. Why not? You don’t wanna be on the side of what’s right? The truth is might does not necessarily make right. It makes what is, but the moral content is poured into it from elsewhere else and we’re back where we started. The “stick”, regardless of size, carries no morality of it’s own. The hands in which it is found give it that.[quote]ephrem wrote:…<<< do you oppose male circumcision? It is a socially accepted tradition in the USA to circumcise male babies regardless of religion or medical need, but far more people are opposed to female circumcision in Africa. Why is that? For the record, i oppose any kind of circumcision, barring medical reasons, without the child’s informed consent…>>>[/quote]Please elaborate further before I respond in misunderstanding. I don’t think I see the correlation.[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< …you need to feel a certain way, and that need is satisfied by your religeous zeal. That’s it T, that is the only reason. It is still a selfish reason >>>[/quote]Having been given the mind of Christ I now see that I need to BE a certain way and have been freed and empowered to do so. Feelings are a blessed side effect. Being a ruther sharp feller you will tell me that this is a distinction without a difference and simply a subjective interpretation of my own state of mind that amounts to the same thing. That’s fine. I have no answer in that regard that will make the slightest difference to you. That would be like trying to describe a rose to man who was born blind. [quote]Ephrem wrote:The meaning I’ve found in my life may be meaningless to you but that is utterly inconsequential to me…>>>[/quote]No… it’s meaningless to you. You have been a living, breathing, typing object lesson for that since I’ve known you here. Life’s a bitch and then ya die, game over. You’ve found meaning in that? I repeat, you mean more to me than you do to yourself.

294

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…will it improve the quality of life for all of my people? Will it make my society prosper? If the answer is “yes” in favor of B over A, we should try to move towards making B reality. If the answer is “no” it was a bad idea…[/quote]

Fair enough. “Quality of life for all your people” is the ultimate yardstick then?

[/quote]

…more or less. I can imagine a kindhearted person like me would not want that quality to be dependant on the misery of others, so we’d have to take in to account aswell. I have errands to run, but i’ll be back…
[/quote]

Indeed. Okay, so let’s call it (“quality of life”) your “Yardstick.”

Now suppose you met another tribe. That tribe believes in C. Using your trusty Yardstick, you discover that, in fact, C is even better. Would you now adopt C. as the preferred principle/value?
[/quote]

…i guess i would, sure…[/quote]

okay. And suppose you came upon another tribe, where disease and hunger were rampant because they unfortuantely practised and believed in D.

Would you introduce them to C, so as to improve their “Quality of life”?

295

[quote]haney1 wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Daniel Everett talks to BBC radio 4 about how living with the Pirah�?�£, a Brazilian tribe he was sent to convert to Christianity ended up with him leaving an atheist.[/quote]

Sad to say the least. Although in the end it is unremarkable. People become believers from skeptics and believers become skeptics all the time. [/quote]

…i didn’t post the clip to show someone who lost his faith, but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. A life after death didn’t seem to matter to them, and why should it? We’re asked to believe in something no one has proven to exist on the basis of faith, and altough i understand why someone would like to believe there’s an afterlife, or a heaven where we spend an eternity with our loved ones, it’s a mirage of your own making…

296

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i guess i would, sure…[/quote]

okay. And suppose you came upon another tribe, where disease and hunger were rampant because they unfortuantely practised and believed in D.

Would you introduce them to C, so as to improve their “Quality of life”?

[/quote]

…i’d have to take in to account whether they’d pose a threat to my tribe if they became more succesful, but if they were not and open to suggestions, sure why not? I certainly wouldn’t try to convince them of C against their wishes though…

297

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i guess i would, sure…[/quote]

okay. And suppose you came upon another tribe, where disease and hunger were rampant because they unfortuantely practised and believed in D.

Would you introduce them to C, so as to improve their “Quality of life”?

[/quote]

…i’d have to take in to account whether they’d pose a threat to my tribe if they became more succesful, but if they were not and open to suggestions, sure why not? I certainly wouldn’t try to convince them of C against their wishes though…
[/quote]

Right, of course, not against their wishes.

Okay, so, you would say to this tribe, “hey, just some friendly advice guys, ‘why don’t you try C. because look at how your quality of life will improve?’”

Assuming** that the tribe is filled with reasonable human beings who care about their own quality of life, they would embrace C. as their principle/value/practice so that their sickness and hunger might be alleviated, reduced or even nearly eliminated.

And given our assumptions, that would make sense, right?

**Along with the potential threat you mentioned, above; let’s grant this assumption and deal with it in a moment, okay?

298

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Ephrem wrote:
<<< …god exists only in your imagination T, and as far as might makes right; we see that on a daily basis all over the world. I may not like it, but people get away with murder, torture and other dreadful acts by saying it’s in our best interest, or to protect your freedoms. It is a fact of life that he who holds the biggest stick, gets to drink the water…>>>[/quote]

Emphasis mine. Why not? You don’t wanna be on the side of what’s right? The truth is might does not necessarily make right. It makes what is, but the moral content is poured into it from elsewhere else and we’re back where we started. The “stick”, regardless of size, carries no morality of it’s own. The hands in which it is found give it that.[/quote]

…i’m on my side, not anyone else’s…

…i was trying to show how virtually everyone is in some way a moral relativist due to cultural and social differences. We may not always be aware of this though, and that was what i tried to show with the circumcision example…

…don’t presume to know me, you don’t. You can’t. What i value i value because of the emotional investment i made; how it affects my life and myself, and those i care for, in a positive way. That’s real, tangible, and changes in those values affect me deeply for better of worse. It does not need a belief in god to become superluminous because life itself is unequivocal…

299

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< but that these people didn’t require a dogma to be happy and content. >>>[/quote] This story is absolutely percolating with profound possibilities, every one of which loudly declares the providence, decrees and election of God

Deception comes in many packages, but the result is always the same. Anything but Jesus. Here’s a tip. Satan (we’ve barely even talked about him) keeps some of his champions of wickedness as healthy and happy as he can for obvious reasons.

300

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…i’d have to take in to account whether they’d pose a threat to my tribe if they became more succesful, but if they were not and open to suggestions, sure why not? I certainly wouldn’t try to convince them of C against their wishes though…
[/quote]

Right, of course, not against their wishes.

Okay, so, you would say to this tribe, “hey, just some friendly advice guys, ‘why don’t you try C. because look at how your quality of life will improve?’”

Assuming** that the tribe is filled with reasonable human beings who care about their own quality of life, they would embrace C. as their principle/value/practice so that their sickness and hunger might be alleviated, reduced or even nearly eliminated.

And given our assumptions, that would make sense, right?

**Along with the potential threat you mentioned, above; let’s grant this assumption and deal with it in a moment, okay?

[/quote]

…right. I see where this is going, but go ahead, my head is on the choppingblock (: So far i have no difficulties with this scenario…